Chip a wa-y to win

[MU82]

That's great, he can go to the MAC next year and dominate against more D2 transfers.

6 of the 9 players who logged minutes for CMU yesterday were playing D2 ball last season. Two of the non-D2 guys played at powerhouse schools, Tennessee Tech and IU-Indianapolis (f.k.a. IUPUI).

Pointing out facts is not "crying." They start guys who last year were playing for Ferris State, Wayne State, IU-South Bend (which I learned existed yesterday), and Kentucky Wesleyan, and had a guy play 17 minutes who played for what used to be known as Purdue-Calumet.

If Josh Clark plays well against actual D1 players, I'll give him his due. But, I'm going to wait and see how he does against the centers from Purdue, Tarris Reed, Jr.,  and Zuby before anointing him the great Big East center.

OK, I guess I'm not allowed to say anything positive about Marquette hoops. Thanks for putting me back on the correct path,, Billy. I and others here absolutely "anointed" him - I personally said Clark would be the next Patrick Ewing, and Snoop said Clark would be the next Alonzo Mourning. That was crazy talk on our part!

So you're right: Shaka should be ashamed of himself for taking a flier on a 7-footer. Here's hoping he cuts Josh Clark tomorrow.

There. That was a close one.

[Billy Hoyle]

OK, I guess I'm not allowed to say anything positive about Marquette hoops. Thanks for putting me back on the correct path,, Billy. I and others here absolutely "anointed" him - I personally said Clark would be the next Patrick Ewing, and Snoop said Clark would be the next Alonzo Mourning. That was crazy talk on our part!

So you're right: Shaka should be ashamed of himself for taking a flier on a 7-footer. Here's hoping he cuts Josh Clark tomorrow.

There. That was a close one.

Huh? I did not respond to you about Clark.

[MU82]

Huh? I did not respond to you about Clark.

No, you responded to the Scooper who agreed with my positive and hopeful - in other words, CRAZY! - post about Clark.

[Billy Hoyle]

No, you responded to the Scooper who agreed with my positive and hopeful - in other words, CRAZY! - post about Clark.

I didn't see that he responded to you.

That said, I do think Shaka made a mistake taking a flier on a developmental guy, again, when he could have used it to bring in a proven commodity big man who would have filled a giant hole last season and/or this season, instead of a possible Youssoupha Mbao who was unlikely to contribute for multiple seasons and wouldn't be able to help one of the best all around players we've had since Wade left.

[Spaniel with a Short Tail]

I didn't see that he responded to you.

That said, I do think Shaka made a mistake taking a flier on a developmental guy, again, when he could have used it to bring in a proven commodity big man who would have filled a giant hole last season and/or this season, instead of a possible Youssoupha Mbao who was unlikely to contribute for multiple seasons and wouldn't be able to help one of the best all around players we've had since Wade left.

(I think Clark has potential to be a service able big man and is worth the scholly.)

[MU82]

I didn't see that he responded to you.

That said, I do think Shaka made a mistake taking a flier on a developmental guy, again, when he could have used it to bring in a proven commodity big man who would have filled a giant hole last season and/or this season, instead of a possible Youssoupha Mbao who was unlikely to contribute for multiple seasons and wouldn't be able to help one of the best all around players we've had since Wade left.

Duly noted. Again, thanks for making sure none of us say anything positive about any Marquette player for the rest of the season. Doing so would be akin to "accepting" Marquette's status as by far the worst team in the Big East.

[Pakuni]

Kur is the exact same comparison me and my friends at the game said yesterday too.  Not a star, but a mobile 7 footer who can give you 20 really good minutes as an upperclassmen.

This got me thinking, and I don't mean it as a swipe towards anyone, but if the hope is for Josh Clark to develop into a Kur Kuath-type ... why not just go get a Kur Kuath-type in the portal? Not saying they're necessarily a dime-a-dozen, but they're out there every year.
 
Seems more efficient and effective than spending 2-3 years of scholarship and resources (financial and otherwise) developing a guy who you hope becomes that type of player by the time he's an upperclassman. Why not just get someone who is that player now?

[wadesworld]

This got me thinking, and I don't mean it as a swipe towards anyone, but if the hope is for Josh Clark to develop into a Kur Kuath-type ... why not just go get a Kur Kuath-type in the portal? Not saying they're necessarily a dime-a-dozen, but they're out there every year.
 
Seems more efficient and effective than spending 2-3 years of scholarship and resources (financial and otherwise) developing a guy who you hope becomes that type of player by the time he's an upperclassman. Why not just get someone who is that player now?

So just take Rick Pitino's stance and only take transfers (even if he doesn't actually follow that).

There aren't a ton of recruits who are ready to come in and play Big East rotational minutes as freshman. And transfers that are proven to be ready to play Big East rotational minutes will cost decent money. Sometimes you'll need to develop players over a couple of years.

[Pakuni]

So just take Rick Pitino's stance and only take transfers (even if he doesn't actually follow that).

I'm not really sure what this means or how it responds to my question.

There aren't a ton of recruits who are ready to come in and play Big East rotational minutes as freshman. And transfers that are proven to be ready to play Big East rotational minutes will cost decent money. Sometimes you'll need to develop players over a couple of years.

Sure, but what's a better use of MU's resources ... pay a guy for five years hoping he's productive for two, or pay a guy a little more for two years expecting he'll be productive for two?
Obviously there are no guarantees either way, but a guy who's proven he can play at the college level is a safer bet than a raw high school project, right?

[MU82]

What if Shaka thinks Josh Clark can be better than a Kur Kuath type? What if there are so few Kuath type transfers available that they are overpriced?

Like Pak, I don't know who these Kuath types are, how many there are, etc. I do know that Shaka identified a 7-foot 18-year-old that intrigued him. Over his first 4 years, Shaka gave me every reason to give him the benefit of the doubt on personnel matters.

[Scoop Snoop]

What if Shaka thinks Josh Clark can be better than a Kur Kuath type? What if there are so few Kuath type transfers available that they are overpriced?

Like Pak, I don't know who these Kuath types are, how many there are, etc. I do know that Shaka identified a 7-foot 18-year-old that intrigued him. Over his first 4 years, Shaka gave me every reason to give him the benefit of the doubt on personnel matters.

Yep. It's way too early to know if he will work out. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. All you and I did was post about Clark having an impressive 8 minutes on the floor against an unimpressive opponent. We did not say, imply, or speculate about anything other than commenting on those 8 minutes.

That was enough to trigger one rant in particular that he isn't good, how Shaka should have used that scholarship for a better player, that he will fail against the best centers in the BE, and that the ranter wants Clark to prove himself to him, etc.

[JTJ3]

You also get 15 roster spots now.  You cant have 15 guys all expecting minutes, hell you cant even have 11 or 12 - there arent enough minutes to spread around.  I guess I dont see the issue in using one spot on a guy like Clark who is 7 feet and mobile and isnt expecting starter minutes early in his career?

There is plenty of room to add a long term piece like Clark and still add a transfer if needed.  This isnt an either/or scenario.

[1SE]

What if Shaka thinks Josh Clark can be better than a Kur Kuath type? What if there are so few Kuath type transfers available that they are overpriced?

Like Pak, I don't know who these Kuath types are, how many there are, etc. I do know that Shaka identified a 7-foot 18-year-old that intrigued him. Over his first 4 years, Shaka gave me every reason to give him the benefit of the doubt on personnel matters.

Really - every reason? You don't think getting a real big or PG from the portal last year as opposed to a bench stacked w "projects" would have made a difference?

[1SE]

Yep. It's way too early to know if he will work out. Maybe he will, maybe he won't. All you and I did was post about Clark having an impressive 8 minutes on the floor against an unimpressive opponent. We did not say, imply, or speculate about anything other than commenting on those 8 minutes.

That was enough to trigger one rant in particular that he isn't good, how Shaka should have used that scholarship for a better player, that he will fail against the best centers in the BE, and that the ranter wants Clark to prove himself to him, etc.

Sure, if we otherwise had BE caliber players at all 5 slots - but we don't. FWIW I like Clark and think he has more upside than Hamilton, but you can't have two project 5s on a roster and no starter.

[MessWithAll]

I'm totally fine giving Clark 5-8 min every game from here on out. Sure, he will get worked in some games (see St Johns with Ejiofor) but will it be THAT much worse than Gold/Caedin?  Id give him the minutes with the potential upside down the road. Why not??

[MU82]

Really - every reason? You don't think getting a real big or PG from the portal last year as opposed to a bench stacked w "projects" would have made a difference?

Ok. Almost every reason.

[#UnleashNigel]

This got me thinking, and I don't mean it as a swipe towards anyone, but if the hope is for Josh Clark to develop into a Kur Kuath-type ... why not just go get a Kur Kuath-type in the portal? Not saying they're necessarily a dime-a-dozen, but they're out there every year.
 
Seems more efficient and effective than spending 2-3 years of scholarship and resources (financial and otherwise) developing a guy who you hope becomes that type of player by the time he's an upperclassman. Why not just get someone who is that player now?

Shaka tried a traditional route, Marquette got lots of good press about it, it has been shown to not work great 2 years in. No point in going over that ad nauseam now.

Now come next year, or maybe one more year after... If it turns out this isnt successful, and he doesn't go to the portal, then this point is very very valid.

[Billy Hoyle]

(I think Clark has potential to be a service able big man and is worth the scholly.)

Sure.

Chad Venning. Averaged double figures at Boston College as a grad transfer after leaving St. Bonaventure.

Baba Miller. Though I guess we don't have the money to out bid Florida Atlantic.

David Skogman, a Wisconsin kid and grad transfer who averaged 6 and 5 for DePaul after averaging 13 and 5 as a senior (or maybe we can't outbid DePaul).

There are three guys who could have contributed more than Hamilton and Clark to a team that badly needed a center that may have prevented a first-round exit last year.

In this new era of college basketball, playing the long game and hoping for development isn't like it was 5 years ago

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Need to ditch havoc.  Gives way more than it takes.  Start playing solid defense rather than chasing steals.

Indeed, and the same applies to the offense. When Nigel plays at Sean Jones helter-kelter pace, his results are dismal (just as Jones' are).

Shaka said clearly pre-season that he wants this team to play with incredible pace at both ends. The question is, with the poor results on both ends of the floor, will he adjust?

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Sure.

Chad Venning. Averaged double figures at Boston College as a grad transfer after leaving St. Bonaventure.

Baba Miller. Though I guess we don't have the money to out bid Florida Atlantic.

David Skogman, a Wisconsin kid and grad transfer who averaged 6 and 5 for DePaul after averaging 13 and 5 as a senior (or maybe we can't outbid DePaul).

There are three guys who could have contributed more than Hamilton and Clark to a team that badly needed a center that may have prevented a first-round exit last year.

In this new era of college basketball, playing the long game and hoping for development isn't like it was 5 years ago

This is all hindsight-driven. Always easy to actually pick out a few names after the season is over. 

Venning started and played 26 MPG.  Those minutes were not going to be available at Marquette yet you're assuming he would have transferred to come off the bench and play less?  The same could be said for Miller. 

[Scoop Snoop]

Sure, if we otherwise had BE caliber players at all 5 slots - but we don't. FWIW I like Clark and think he has more upside than Hamilton, but you can't have two project 5s on a roster and no starter.

Agree. It was just that a post about a project 5 having a nice 8 minutes was practically rewritten by a scooper who went bonkers over it. I was pissed!

Marquette's problem at the 5 is undeniable. I have no illusions that Clark can take over from Hamilton at this point and, like James, be a very pleasant surprise and be able to help turn this team around. The Valpo game hopefully will give Shaka an opportunity to give Clark a few minutes to show what he can do.

[The Sultan]

Agree. It was just that a post about a project 5 having a nice 8 minutes was practically rewritten by a scooper who went bonkers over it. I was pissed!

Marquette's problem at the 5 is undeniable. I have no illusions that Clark can take over from Hamilton at this point and, like James, be a very pleasant surprise and be able to help turn this team around. The Valpo game hopefully will give Shaka an opportunity to give Clark a few minutes to show what he can do.

Hopefully. Valpo is ranked 80 spots higher than Central Michigan in kenpom.

[Pakuni]

This is all hindsight-driven. Always easy to actually pick out a few names after the season is over. 

Venning started and played 26 MPG.  Those minutes were not going to be available at Marquette yet you're assuming he would have transferred to come off the bench and play less?  The same could be said for Miller. 

Given his proven ability to identify somewhat overlooked/underrated gems in the transfer market, shouldn't we have faith that Shaka can find portal players who would succeed at Marquette?
His hit rate on transfers at MU has been much better than on high schoolers, no?

I think you may be overestimating the importance of minutes. Sure, kids want to play. But they also want to be on good teams with postseason possibilities, in good environments and with good coaches, teammates and support staff. If 25 mpg at BC or DePaul is more appealing than 18 mpg at Marquette, then we're doing something wrong.

[The Equalizer]

Sure, but what's a better use of MU's resources ... pay a guy for five years hoping he's productive for two, or pay a guy a little more for two years expecting he'll be productive for two?
Obviously there are no guarantees either way, but a guy who's proven he can play at the college level is a safer bet than a raw high school project, right?

This makes perfect sense, but it doesn't fit with Shaka's comments on NIL for incoming players.

Specifically, his comments along the lines of not paying an incoming player more than anyone who's already worn the uniform, ending recruitment of a HS players if they inquire about NIL, telling recruits they don't need agents and refusing to talk to players' agents.

That seems to imply that the cap for any new player is whatever Clark or Phillips are earning who are presumably at the low end of MU's NIL payouts.  That feels like it would be below market rate for a quality transfer or a top-50 ranked HS player.

Thus a transfer with only one or two years eligibility left and wants to maximize NIL from year one isn't going to pick MU. A freshman can at least rationalize the notion of not getting much in year one with the ability to make up for it in years two through five--but the highest rated freshmen are only thinking they'll be in college for one or two years.

[Pakuni]

You also get 15 roster spots now.  You cant have 15 guys all expecting minutes, hell you cant even have 11 or 12 - there arent enough minutes to spread around.  I guess I dont see the issue in using one spot on a guy like Clark who is 7 feet and mobile and isnt expecting starter minutes early in his career?

There is plenty of room to add a long term piece like Clark and still add a transfer if needed.  This isnt an either/or scenario.

Maybe, maybe not. I really don't see the point/necessity of having 15 scholarship players. Seems an unnecessary thinning of resources, both financial and otherwise.
Might we be better off focusing our limited resources on 11-13 scholarship players who might positively effect the program, as opposed to paying 3-4 kids to sit on the bench all year?