Shaka’s mess

[Billy Hoyle]

His teams weren't really able to capitalize on the #2 seeds in those tournaments, either.  One Sweet 16 and 0 wins against single-digit seeded teams is underachieving when you're seeded as a top-8 team both years.

I'm not going to bemoan losing to MSU in 2023, especially with Kolek less than 100% and Izzo on the other sideline, but that NC State game was inexcusable.

Last year's drop off after starting out wins over Purdue (blowout), @ Maryland (closer than it should have been but a clutch win), Bucky (14 points), and Creighton is what is more concerning. We lost 4 of our last five, with that win being a 2-point win against Xavier, a First Four team.

This shouldn't be a Wojo v. Shaka debate, there is no debate there. The issue is the ligitmate concern about the trajectory of the program.

[Galway Eagle]

Except Wojo didn't have 4 consecutive years of high-level success. It's not a relevant comparison, IMO.

That being said, the current results are not remotely acceptable and Shaka needs to figure it out.

I mean neither did Shaka. Shakas had two years of high level success, two years of acceptable standard. Even Wojo had that (the couple years of acceptable standard not high level success) 

[Shooter McGavin]

What part of Sweet 16, two NCAA Tournament 2 seeds, 4 out of 4 seasons in the NCAA, a Big East Regular and Conference Tournament title didn't you understand?  Not to mention he's been to a Final Four.

Elon,  I am with you but and it's a big BUT, there was a ton of talent that was on that team first year at MU.  Shaka's transfers and the returning players and recruits that stayed were all REALLY good.  Some second tier NBA level good.  Kudos to Shaka for bringing, or at least retaining, that type of talent to MU. 

I said before the season that this would have been Shaka's greatest coaching job at MU if he got this team to the tournament and got hammered for it.  People thought the RG part would wipe away what we were seeing from our reserve players. 

Unfortunately, you have to be really freaking talented for the RG portion to turn into V.  There are no ridiculously talented but raw basketball players on our team besides NJ.  I don't mention Ross because he is the polished version of himself. 

Shaka was blessed for 4 years with a loaded roster and we thought it was good coaching.  Some of it was but most of it was raw second tier NBA talent that needed guidance to excel.  Shaka provided that but he did not back fill the roster with even mid tier D-1 talent let alone top tier D-1 talent or second tier NBA talent. 

Unfortunately, the talent problem was, in part, a product of his own success.  There were no starting spots open for YEARS.  Big time talent does not wait.  They go somewhere else.

He needed to see the lack of talent coming and go to the portal this off season to keep the train rolling.  He also could have taken the opportunity to supplement his last two rosters and you may have been talking a final four instead of a sweet sixteen.

KYP.  He didn't and now he has to work with this group just to stay out of the bottom tier of the conference. 

Here's hoping the last two recruiting classes are part of the solution.

[Pakuni]

Sadly, I don't see this happening. I don't think fans feel much connection at all to this group.

Hate to say it, but it feels like there's some truth to this.
Fans tend not to get behind losing teams, which is obviously part of the problem here. But I think fans, especially at the college level, will cut some slack/grace to a team that's coming up short if they're playing hard and smart. I'm not seeing that from a lot of these guys. Zaide watching a ball roll around at his feet while Dayton players dove on the floor for it is emblematic of what we're seeing too often. We don't take care of the ball, are slow to help on defense, are soft at the rim on both ends, aren't diving for loose balls and don't seem to have a killer instinct (up 9 with less than 8 to play last night, lose; watch Maryland's best player leave on a stretcher, get outscored 49-35 the rest of the game).
Outside of Chase and Nigel, not a lot of regular EGBs from this group.

[wadesworld]

Funds were secured following the meeting when wojo refused to change his staff. This happened in a matter of a few days.

Marquette crying poor is a completely manufactured stance from this coaching staff. We will never compete or pay for the million dollar player, nor should we. But it is incredibly disingenuous to say we don't have money when programs in our conference with less resources are finding great players in the portal.

Those "great players" in the portal are leading those Big East teams to similar results as Marquette is having right now...

[21Jumpstreet]

I can appreciate your sentiments here, and you're not wrong.  In my view, though, only Chase and Ben have played major roles in the past.  Chase largely has improved his game/taken a step.  Ben is pretty much neutral with last year, but serviceable.

What we are dealing with is waiting for guys who have never done it before (Zaide, Royce, Nigel, Adrien, Caedin, Tre, Owens), to be able to take a next step.

So, while we have great roster continuity, we really only had 2 guys who had done it before.  I still feel we will see progress with all of Zaide, Royce, Nigel, Adrien, Caedin.  Tre may have played his best game at MU last night.

I just think our fans should be rallying behind these guys and this coach, instead of crapping all over them.

Nailed it

[The Sultan]

I just think our fans should be rallying behind these guys and this coach, instead of crapping all over them.

Huh.

[wadesworld]

Do we have less than Creighton?

Yes.

[Shooter McGavin]

Shaka is infinitely more capable and bright than Wojo.  He will get it turned around.  As ugly as the start to this season has been, I still think the team will show improvement going forward.

I also think another year of experience and lineup next year of Nigel, Adrien, Zaide, Royce, Sheek/Clark/Hamilton with some great shooters off the bench in Phillips, Walker, Ian - and a physical guard like Egbouno is a roster I can get excited about.

Really hope you are right. This next wave of talent has to be better.  Zaide unfortunately is almost his polished version.  Parham and Hamilton are still unfinished products.  Hoping the Sophs, red shirt Frosh and true frosh are truly talented.

TRGV.  The T needs to come before all of it.

[wadesworld]

This summer, every interview Shaka did, the first two guys he mentioned were Sean and Caedin. From the jump, it was clear NJ was the best PG on the roster and Caedin in year 3 still looks unplayable. 10,000 hook shots and he's taken what, one this year?

Repeatedly telling us how Caedin is the baddest player in the Big East and the successor to Oso is setting him up for failure. And if the staff really believed that stuff, that's incredibly alarming.

A lot of coaches do this with a lot of players.  Trying to build self confidence by speaking highly of players is done by coaches in all sports at all levels.  If you really expected Sean and Caedin to be our two best players because of what Shaka said to the media while he was silent on Chase and Ben that's more on you.

[hawk]

I have to say that following this thread is pretty interesting.  Why is anyone still talking about Wojo and what is the point of still ragging about him?  In the first place his tenure at MU was not terrible  not matter howmany times you say so, how about just get over it and your own biases.  As for this team and this season I really did expect more but I didn't wxpect too much.  This team has good talent.  If you look at production per minutes played, Hamilton and Parham are pretty solid although some how seem lacking.  I think the problem mostly is that Smart is trying to coach the team he wants instead of coaching the team he has.  Hamilton is a back to the basket center, he should never be more that 6' away fron the rim on offense, Smart coaches every big man as it it is Osso.  None of them are.  Let Hamilton set up on the blocks to get off the hook shot.  Gold has to take more shots more often and from deep.  Make the shooter shoot.  On defense Gold has shown to be the best rim protrector they have and his rebounding is very good.  Overall I'd say this team just needs time to jell,they are pretty young but I see progress.  For now I'm guessing maybe 6 and 5 in the nonconverence and possibly 10 and 10 in the Big East.  NIT perhaps and be way better next year for the trouble.  Mostly I thin Shaka needs to curb his ego and help the players become who they are and not try to make them who he wants them to be.  Perhaps also recruit to needs of the team and not to a type of player to mold.  Just my opinion.  GO WARRIOS

[WhiteTrash]

Those "great players" in the portal are leading those Big East teams to similar results as Marquette is having right now...

Maybe, but that response does not address the post's assertion that MU can afford it.

[MU82]

A lot of coaches do this with a lot of players.  Trying to build self confidence by speaking highly of players is done by coaches in all sports at all levels.  If you really expected Sean and Caedin to be our two best players because of what Shaka said to the media while he was silent on Chase and Ben that's more on you.

Was it unreasonable, after hearing months of praise from the coach, to expect Sean and Caedin to not be borderline bad?

[The Sultan]

A lot of coaches do this with a lot of players.  Trying to build self confidence by speaking highly of players is done by coaches in all sports at all levels.  If you really expected Sean and Caedin to be our two best players because of what Shaka said to the media while he was silent on Chase and Ben that's more on you.

When you have the likes of Rothstein tweeting out about Caedin's "massive transformation," that's well more than simply trying to lift a guy's confidence.

[WhiteTrash]

Yes.

Omaha oil money is ridiculous. 

[Hards Alumni]

When you have the likes of Rothstein tweeting out about Caedin's "massive transformation," that's well more than simply trying to lift a guy's confidence.

That's just Rothstein tweeting after making a phone call to the coaches office at Marquette.

[WhiteTrash]

A lot of coaches do this with a lot of players.  Trying to build self confidence by speaking highly of players is done by coaches in all sports at all levels.  If you really expected Sean and Caedin to be our two best players because of what Shaka said to the media while he was silent on Chase and Ben that's more on you.

I don't think that is true on any level of sports coaching, or at least by good coaches. Artificially creating unreal expectation for a player is a terrible thing for a coach to do. I think Shaka genuinely saw significant improvement that has not translated to actual performance. But no coach hits 100% on player evaluation.

[Zog from Margo]

I agree with those who noted that this is not a portal issue. This is a talent assessment issue. I have no problem recruiting a kid like Hamilton, but to do so only with the thought that he will be a backup. The same is true of Clark. Planning on them to become starting BE level centers was reckless. Amadou and Itejere were clear misses. Neither the junior nor the sophomore class looks great, with freshmen already surpassing them.

On top of that, the recruits do not fit the offensive system. My criticism of Wojo was that his recruiting was haphazard because he did not have a system and it's bad policy to try to change systems annually to match players on the roster. Shaka has a system but has recruited too many guys who do not fit. Nevada Smith's offense is based on shooting 3s at a reasonable level and MU has recruited the gang that couldn't shoot. Shaka must believe that guys can be taught to shoot and that belief has been misplaced. I am doubtful whether coaching at this stage of a players career can regularly turn bad shooters into good shooters, but it is clear that no one on the current staff can do it.

The portal might be the fastest way to correct for some weak classes, but I think the approach could have worked by better recruiting.

[The Sultan]

That's just Rothstein tweeting after making a phone call to the coaches office at Marquette.

That's my point. Saying Caedin has had a "massive transformation," clearly came from someone in the program. That claim was obviously an extreme exaggeration, and not merely about lifting his confidence.

I don't think that is true on any level of sports coaching, or at least by good coaches. Artificially creating unreal expectation for a player is a terrible thing for a coach to do. I think Shaka genuinely saw significant improvement that has not translated to actual performance. But no coach hits 100% on player evaluation.

Yep.

[Jay Bee]

There are no ridiculously talented but raw basketball players on our team besides NJ.

I understand that some may have given up, but for me I still am holding onto hope re: D-Owens. Not sure raw is the right word, but there's talent there.

[panda]

Those "great players" in the portal are leading those Big East teams to similar results as Marquette is having right now...

Edwards would slot in as our second best guard and ajayi has a pulse so he would be our best big.

[brewcity77]

Except Wojo didn't have 4 consecutive years of high-level success. It's not a relevant comparison, IMO.

That being said, the current results are not remotely acceptable and Shaka needs to figure it out.

No, Wojo had 4-1/2 years of progressive escalating success. Year one bad. Year two better but not good enough. Year three right side of the bubble. Year four wrong side of the bubble, but clear defensive flaws. Year five, top-10 team and had 3 chances to clinch the Big East but the wheels fell off.

At the end of year five, even his supporters (myself included) were ready to jump ship, but acknowledged you couldn't fire a guy coming off a 5-seed. And then we had a pandemic.

Shaka escalated faster and reached higher heights, but like Wojo saw a downturn in success after losing his first two golden geese. Wojo went from a 5 to a 9 losing the Hausers, Shaka went from a 2 to a 7 losing TK/Oso. The year after, Wojo lost Markus and had a losing record. Shaka lost Kam and we have this.

Shaka is a better coach & did far more than Wojo did, but if you compare 2017-21 and 2022-present, the escalation and decline has some parallels but at different levels.

[Shooter McGavin]

I understand that some may have given up, but for me I still am holding onto hope re: D-Owens. Not sure raw is the right word, but there's talent there.

I hope you are right JB.  This would help immensely to turn things around.  But that last wave of talent showed significantly more upside year 2 (Big East Championship upside).  J Lewis  the year before did the same. 

[brewcity77]

A lot of coaches do this with a lot of players.  Trying to build self confidence by speaking highly of players is done by coaches in all sports at all levels.  If you really expected Sean and Caedin to be our two best players because of what Shaka said to the media while he was silent on Chase and Ben that's more on you.

I know you are given to hyperbole and extremes, but the point wasn't that they should be better than Chase & Ben but that if you're talking them up, they should at least be net positive players. That really hasn't been the case.

To date, Marquette is better on offense and defense when Sean is off vs on, and the same is the case for Caedin. And if they're not ready to be net positive players, fine, but don't tell everyone you can that they are ready to be impact guys. It's setting them up for failure.

[wadesworld]

When you have the likes of Rothstein tweeting out about Caedin's "massive transformation," that's well more than simply trying to lift a guy's confidence.

If you're relying on John Rothstein for your CBB information, again, more on you.