Hoosier beat down

[muwarrior69]

Skaka's post game presser.

https://www.bing.com/videos/riverview/relatedvideo?q=shaka+smart+postgame+interview&refig=6911d49c6fda457f90c7881e976419d0&pc=U531&pq=shaka+smart+post&pqlth=16&assgl=30&sgcn=shaka+smart+postgame+interview&qs=UT&sgtpv=UT&smvpcn=0&swbcn=1&sctcn=0&sc=1-16&sp=1&ghc=0&cvid=6911d49c6fda457f90c7881e976419d0&clckatsg=1&hsmssg=0&ru=%2fsearch%3fq%3dshaka%2bsmart%2bpostgame%2binterview%26form%3dANNTH1%26refig%3d6911d49c6fda457f90c7881e976419d0%26pc%3dU531%26pq%3dshaka%2bsmart%2bpost%26pqlth%3d16%26assgl%3d30%26sgcn%3dshaka%2bsmart%2bpostgame%2binterview%26qs%3dUT%26sgtpv%3dUT%26smvpcn%3d0%26swbcn%3d1%26sctcn%3d0%26sc%3d1-16%26sp%3d1%26ghc%3d0%26cvid%3d6911d49c6fda457f90c7881e976419d0%26clckatsg%3d1%26hsmssg%3d0&mmscn=vwrc&mid=530A2F4B867A79E1E3AB530A2F4B867A79E1E3AB&FORM=WRVORC&ntb=1&msockid=6c1701eebe2e11f088ad7cd2a6629fa4

[CTWarrior]

3. Sean will figure out how how to play point.  Getting into the paint without a plan for the next play.

I'm not sure I agree with this.  Sean strikes me as a 10 mpg change of pace guy, not a 28 mpg starting PG.

[Stretchdeltsig]

This game was like getting hit by a truck. Didn't see it coming. What a big difference it makes to have ten transfers of older guys that are getting paid. They played like a semi pro team who learned a lot from playing in Europe. Its disappointing and sad that college basketball has morphed away from student athletes to semi pro ball players. It's two different games. I know I will continue to root for Marquette.

[tower912]

I'm not sure I agree with this.  Sean strikes me as a 10 mpg change of pace guy, not a 28 mpg starting PG.

I get that.  That is what he was pre-injury. 

[Viper]

This game was like getting hit by a truck. Didn't see it coming. What a big difference it makes to have ten transfers of older guys that are getting paid. They played like a semi pro team who learned a lot from playing in Europe. Its disappointing and sad that college basketball has morphed away from student athletes to semi pro ball players. It's two different games. I know I will continue to root for Marquette.

not sure what Maryland presents, but Purdue, Oklahoma and Wisconsin present experienced, talented teams. If...big IF, MU enters conference play with 4 L's, not sure they play much better than .500 ball on the season. If so, doesn't it force the HC to rethink how a roster is assembled? MU has a roster of solid guys, it seems. Rep the University at a high level. BUT, taking the no-offer-development-guy will have to change. Or, accept what it is. 

[Billy Hoyle]

Tower, I think the thread title should've been "Hoosier daddy".

At halftime I figured the title would be something like "Mother Tucker" or "Tucking Brutal." Then we got DeVries in foul trouble and let another mid-major transfer go off on us.

[Billy Hoyle]

This game was like getting hit by a truck. Didn't see it coming. What a big difference it makes to have ten transfers of older guys that are getting paid. They played like a semi pro team who learned a lot from playing in Europe. Its disappointing and sad that college basketball has morphed away from student athletes to semi pro ball players. It's two different games. I know I will continue to root for Marquette.

so is this going to be the new "our academic standards are too high" excuse? Do you think none of our guys are getting NIL? At a minimum, they're all getting six figures from revenue share.

And lets look at the blue blood programs where the "semi pro" guys who played  more than 10 minutes and crushed us came from:

Drake/West Virginia
Sam Houston St
Drake/DePaul
Davidson
Troy
true freshman
UT Chatanooga/Florida
North Florida

[The Sultan]

This game was like getting hit by a truck. Didn't see it coming. What a big difference it makes to have ten transfers of older guys that are getting paid. They played like a semi pro team who learned a lot from playing in Europe. Its disappointing and sad that college basketball has morphed away from student athletes to semi pro ball players. It's two different games. I know I will continue to root for Marquette.

Why?

By the way, it's not "semi-pro." It's "pro."

[muwarrior69]

Maybe the next time we play Indiana it should be in Alaska not the United Center.

[JTJ3]

Nigel starting the 2nd half over Sean was telling.  Shaka sees what many of us see too.

The result sucked, but it is still November.  I see no need to worry yet.  Yesterday Shaka really shortened the rotation in the 2nd half, he learned who his best guys are.  That will help going into the Maryland and Dayton games.

If we are still getting blown out like this after New Years I will be a lot more concerned.

[Galway Eagle]

Nigel starting the 2nd half over Sean was telling.  Shaka sees what many of us see too.

The result sucked, but it is still November.  I see no need to worry yet.  Yesterday Shaka really shortened the rotation in the 2nd half, he learned who his best guys are.  That will help going into the Maryland and Dayton games.

If we are still getting blown out like this after New Years I will be a lot more concerned.

I just hope Shaka isn't chalking it up to a just a one off. I'm fine with giving Sean another mid major game to prove he can fix his decision making but Shakas got to give him very little room for error next Saturday against Maryland.

[CTWarrior]

I get that.  That is what he was pre-injury.

Yeah, but I think that may be his ceiling at this level.  not a good shooter, too small to get a shot off in traffic and not great vision when he drives.  Hope I'm wrong and you are right.  I think his body goes faster than his brain, if you know what I mean.

[jfp61]

we gonna reach a point in this season where im calling to play sean jones less than adrien stevens and michael phillips.. Just beat maryland and get a lineup settled for big east play so we can go .500

[The Sultan]

Yeah, but I think that may be his ceiling at this level.  not a good shooter, too small to get a shot off in traffic and not great vision when he drives.  Hope I'm wrong and you are right.  I think his body goes faster than his brain, if you know what I mean.

The problem is just as much on the other side of the ball. IU took advantage of every switch he made on a bigger body and caused a mis-match.

[Big Papi]

What an awful game. I expected us to be a bubble team at best with hopes of making the tournament, but this team has a long way to go to get into that position.  3 games are not enough to know where this team will be at the end of the year, but it is enough to see what our current issues are.

1. Defending. 

A lot of it is just a lack of communication and team defending in general.  Easier to turn over bad teams than P5 teams.  With the youth of this team, this will be an issue all year.

2. Half-court offense.

This team does not have reliable 3-point shooters.  Stop our transition game and you stop our ability to score easily.  I don't see a single player that can consistently bail us out in our half-court offense like a DeVries.  I like the improvement we are seeing out of Hamilton down low with an inside presence, but he is still a year away, especially defensively.

3. Lack of significant improvement from returning players. 

Significant being the key word.  Chase has lived up to expectations.  Hamilton has improved.  I don't know if you can say the same for anyone else.  We need more out of Zaide, Sean, Parham and Owens. Zaide is half-way there, but his ceiling seems like a great secondary player.  The other 3 have been disappointments early on.  That's a big problem

4. Youth. 

The future is bright for the 2027-28 season and beyond but it's still too inexperienced.  Lots of growing pains.  Very happy with what Nigel brings.  He is a gamer and should probably start this year going forward over Sean based on overall ability.   

Ultimately, I think finishing in the top half of the Big East standings and having a chance to make the tournament will make this a successful season with where this team is right now.

[brewcity77]

One of the things that was very concerning after watching that game is that we heard all off-season that the staff was really high on Sean. And he was awful. He showed little scoring ability, continued to make poor turnovers, and is an absolute liability on a switching defense.

I said as the season was winding down last year, that a transfer point might be the best option heading into this season. But obviously that didn't happen. So that leads me to ask...does the staff overrate the talent that is on their own team?

And don't get me started on people being high on Caedin heading into the season.

This is one of my biggest concerns. DoctorV covered much of it, but I'll expound. My evaluation of guys we didn't see prior impact from comes largely from what the staff has been saying. They've given the impression that Sean has been a Big East ready starter for the better part of the last year. We've heard for two consecutive years about the impact Caedin would make. We've heard how Owens was going to be a dude from the jump.

This is the same staff that in the past told us how much we would love Tyler, how great Oso would be, how Kam was going to be an all-time scorer, how we'd see Stevie's tenacity come through in wins, how Jop was going to physically improve. All those things came to be, so there was reason to trust what they said when it came to the next generation of players.

There were legit statistical reasons to believe in Chase, Zaide, and Parham. But thus far, only two of those three have come through. We played 26 different lineups against Indiana; I've yet to see why anything other than NJ fouling out should take him off the court. It's one game, so there's time to turn things around, but there are definitely some worrying things around this roster.

[MUbiz]

Where can we get the plus minus stats for the game? Obviously most players will be minus this game but it would be interesting to see.  This year, without clear standout alphas (minus Chase this early in the season), leaders, go to players etc, the stat may actually be a little more telling than usual.  Especially given all the lineup combinations.

Sean -28  - YIKES
Ross -15
Parham -12
Gold -17
Hamilton -6
Lowery -10
Clark -2
Stevens -13

Nigel James only positive at +8

[Shooter McGavin]

You have to be a special passer or shooter or finisher to be 5'10" and effective, especially given the obvious defensive liabilities with being short.  You can't just be quick.  I still think it's too early to judge Sean after 3 games back from his injury hiatus however.  But I, like others, am concerned about him being the lead guard, especially when the backup looks like he's the real deal. 

Also, JFp61 mentioned Phillips briefly.  I agree that I hope he develops quickly because he has obvious shooting skills and height that will be needed sooner rather than later. 

As I said before the season, it will be fun to see this team develop over the season. The real talent on the roster needs to keep rising to the top.  Just need that arrow pointing up (win a few against the conference big boys or at least look competent) when it's all said and done. 

[Shooter McGavin]

Thanks MUbiz.

[MUBurrow]

I think that in the NIL, transfer happy world, we've forgotten what it was like to have "lost" recruiting classes and to get excited for underclassmen to grow up.  I know that no one else does it that way anymore, but Shaka clearly wants to, so as fans we kind of need to party like its the 2010s.  The Freshman and Sophomore classes have a ton of promise if Shaka can keep them together.

For this year, Chase and Ben have steadily improved, but I have trouble seeing them being cold blooded alphas on a ranked team, and that Junior class provided precious little yesterday.  If this team doesn't start getting more quality out of the Juniors, we'll probably see even more run for the underclassmen as the year wears on, but its going to make for a very up and down year.

[StillWarriors]

Sean -28  - YIKES
Ross -15
Parham -12
Gold -17
Hamilton -6
Lowery -10
Clark -2
Stevens -13

Nigel James only positive at +8

It felt like every bit of -28 too. Ouch. Disappointing and I feel bad for him after all the work to come back, but Sean is in overdrive every minute out there. Before the injury he had finally learned to play under control and use bursts of his tremendous speed as a change up. Hard to see the bobbles, lost footing, indecision...time after time on Sunday. Actually reminded me of when Jamal Cain got into that rut sophomore year, I believe, when it seemed he couldn't touch the ball without turning it over.

I haven't lost faith in Sean and have to think a lot of this is just real game rust and over-excitement impacting him. Confidence has to be affected too given the struggles. It is early and I still believe he will find it, but Shaka can't ignore what James is bringing. Maybe Sean can re-find himself and his confidence in more of a supporting role with a little less pressure.

[The Sultan]

I think that in the NIL, transfer happy world, we've forgotten what it was like to have "lost" recruiting classes and to get excited for underclassmen to grow up.  I know that no one else does it that way anymore, but Shaka clearly wants to, so as fans we kind of need to party like its the 2010s.  The Freshman and Sophomore classes have a ton of promise if Shaka can keep them together.

For this year, Chase and Ben have steadily improved, but I have trouble seeing them being cold blooded alphas on a ranked team, and that Junior class provided precious little yesterday.  If this team doesn't start getting more quality out of the Juniors, we'll probably see even more run for the underclassmen as the year wears on, but its going to make for a very up and down year.

The sophomores? Parham, Owens and Hamilton? Man, I hope so...but I'm not sure about that.

[rgoode57]

This game was like watching boys playing against men - maybe the worst beatdown I have ever seen an MU team take. There was no aspect of the game that was encouraging:

1. On offense, a lot dribbling but very little passing. A one-on-one offense.
2. Sean Jones playing hard but with no apparent plan or purpose. Not showing any real point guard talents yet. Nigel James may be a freshman and will make freshman mistakes, but he looks like the best hope for the point guard spot.
3. Demarius Owens looks completely lost.
4. Parham showing promise and needs to be even more aggressive.
5. No real reliable outside shooting.
6. Was hoping Chase would be the leader of this group, but it doesn't look like it so far. He is the best player on both ends of the court, but that does not mean he is the leader. So far, I don't see that player.

Hopefully this was a one-off game that can be a good learning experience.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

not sure what Maryland presents, but Purdue, Oklahoma and Wisconsin present experienced, talented teams. If...big IF, MU enters conference play with 4 L's, not sure they play much better than .500 ball on the season. If so, doesn't it force the HC to rethink how a roster is assembled? MU has a roster of solid guys, it seems. Rep the University at a high level. BUT, taking the no-offer-development-guy will have to change. Or, accept what it is. 

No, a potentially disappointing year will not force Shaka to reconsider his current roster construction philosophy, nor should it. 

With 15 scholarships and redshirts available, taking development guys won't change either, nor should it. 

Yes, yesterday really sucked and it's completely fair to have concerns and questions.  But I'm seeing an awful lot of overreaction and hyperbole right now, which I guess shouldn't be that surprising. 

I believe in the talent of Parham and Owens, the freshman class looks good, next year's incoming class looks good, and Shaka is in on a lot of talent right now.  Multiple high-ceiling recruits have stated that his retention philosophy is a major reason in why they've committed to Marquette. 

Even some of the best programs have down years and, perhaps this will be one of ours, but I still see the arrow pointing up in regard to the future.

[MUbiz]

This game was like watching boys playing against men - maybe the worst beatdown I have ever seen an MU team take. There was no aspect of the game that was encouraging:

1. On offense, a lot dribbling but very little passing. A one-on-one offense.
2. Sean Jones playing hard but with no apparent plan or purpose. Not showing any real point guard talents yet. Nigel James may be a freshman and will make freshman mistakes, but he looks like the best hope for the point guard spot.
3. Demarius Owens looks completely lost.
4. Parham showing promise and needs to be even more aggressive.
5. No real reliable outside shooting.
6. Was hoping Chase would be the leader of this group, but it doesn't look like it so far. He is the best player on both ends of the court, but that does not mean he is the leader. So far, I don't see that player.

Hopefully this was a one-off game that can be a good learning experience.

To put some numbers behind this (yes I am aware its only 3 games) but we are shooting 43.3% from field - good for 248th in country. We are shooting 30.2% from 3 - good for 244th in country.  These starting trends need to reverse - and quickly.

Yes I know our defense is the bigger problem (that no one saw coming into season) but if we even play average defense and do not improve our shooting, we are looking at the crown dead in the face.

Additionally, Sean Jones has a 24.8% Turnover ratio, Owens has a 31% TO ratio, and Caedin has 29.7% TO ratio.  We can throw DOs out the window because he is not playing much, but having your starting PG and 5 man with those types of TO percentages is death to the offense.