It's one game, but.....

[wadesworld]

I'm sure it's been mentioned on this board but I'm too lazy to look, so my apologies.
Cody Hatt was on Cam Marotta's pod and told the story about how he pushed for Shaka to take Tyler as a transfer when he first got the job.  Shaka was against it, didn't think he was a fit, but Hatt basically bullied him into calling Tyler.  Shaka loved Tyler and the rest is history.

That story, given the pretty steady decline the past 10 months, is a gigantic red flag for me.  Enormous.  Rather than Shaka seeing how incredibly wrong his intuition was with Tyler and using that gained knowledge to alter his strategy, he's seemingly doubling and tripling down with lousy project big men no one else even offered (Hamilton, Clark), unheralded guys like Ben Gold, Sean Jones (kinda, was well-known in Ohio), Zaide Lowery, and an iffy hit rate on his top 75 guys in Owens (BIG YIKES) and Parham (hasn't taken the step we all wanted him to, thus far).  Really the only unequivocal hit he's had is Chase.  ONE recruit in 4 years.

If we're not going to utilize the portal whatsoever, we need high school recruiting to be our big advantage.  And it's just not.  We need to be hitting on JJ Andrews, Kon Knueppel, Dooney Johnson, Cam Ward types, and instead we're getting the same caliber of recruit we've always gotten while taking a bunch of fliers on guys who are so clearly not Big East caliber players.  So we're getting fucked on both ends.

I loved the zag when everyone else zigged, but at a certain point you need to grow the unnatural carnal knowledge up and just do all you can to make this a competitive roster annually.  And that means taking transfers and taking swings on the same 5-star talent you did at Texas.  You're doing the fans and yourself a disservice by being this stubborn and getting run out of the gym by a meh Indiana team.

It was a bad game, and it might be a bad year.  But let's relax a bit here.  Since 1980 Marquette basketball has made the NCAA Tournament 4+ straight seasons twice (8 straight years from 05-06 through 12-13 and the current run of 4 straight years).  In 4 years at Marquette, Shaka has had the two highest seeds Marquette has ever had in an NCAA Tournament.  He's coached a team to a Final Four.  The idea that this guy doesn't have a clue is bonkers.

Nobody knows if this is a "meh" Indiana team.  They have a 5th year senior that has been one of the best players in the country every year he's been healthy.  We lost to a "meh" Mississippi State team in Shaka's second year and went on to win a double BE title.  If this year results in a down year, I'm confident he'll adjust as needed.  He's too competitive, has been a good coach for a long time, and makes too much money not to adjust as needed.

Every team has down years.  We're not above them.  Maybe this is ours.  Maybe this was one bad game three games into a season.

[willie warrior]

This is fair.

It is fair. But plenty here were positing he should be the starter

[Jay Bee]

I know Shaka says he will not take transfers.

#FakeNews #Lies

[willie warrior]

This is fair.

It is fair. But plenty here were positing he should be the starter

I'm sure it's been mentioned on this board but I'm too lazy to look, so my apologies.
Cody Hatt was on Cam Marotta's pod and told the story about how he pushed for Shaka to take Tyler as a transfer when he first got the job.  Shaka was against it, didn't think he was a fit, but Hatt basically bullied him into calling Tyler.  Shaka loved Tyler and the rest is history.

That story, given the pretty steady decline the past 10 months, is a gigantic red flag for me.  Enormous.  Rather than Shaka seeing how incredibly wrong his intuition was with Tyler and using that gained knowledge to alter his strategy, he's seemingly doubling and tripling down with lousy project big men no one else even offered (Hamilton, Clark), unheralded guys like Ben Gold, Sean Jones (kinda, was well-known in Ohio), Zaide Lowery, and an iffy hit rate on his top 75 guys in Owens (BIG YIKES) and Parham (hasn't taken the step we all wanted him to, thus far).  Really the only unequivocal hit he's had is Chase.  ONE recruit in 4 years.

If we're not going to utilize the portal whatsoever, we need high school recruiting to be our big advantage.  And it's just not.  We need to be hitting on JJ Andrews, Kon Knueppel, Dooney Johnson, Cam Ward types, and instead we're getting the same caliber of recruit we've always gotten while taking a bunch of fliers on guys who are so clearly not Big East caliber players.  So we're getting fucked on both ends.

I loved the zag when everyone else zigged, but at a certain point you need to grow the unnatural carnal knowledge up and just do all you can to make this a competitive roster annually.  And that means taking transfers and taking swings on the same 5-star talent you did at Texas.  You're doing the fans and yourself a disservice by being this stubborn and getting run out of the gym by a meh Indiana team.

Did you say steady decline over past 10 months? Shame on you. That is an opinion that cannot be tolerated here.

[onepost]

It was a bad game, and it might be a bad year.  But let's relax a bit here.  Since 1980 Marquette basketball has made the NCAA Tournament 4+ straight seasons twice (8 straight years from 05-06 through 12-13 and the current run of 4 straight years).  In 4 years at Marquette, Shaka has had the two highest seeds Marquette has ever had in an NCAA Tournament.  He's coached a team to a Final Four.  The idea that this guy doesn't have a clue is bonkers.

Nobody knows if this is a "meh" Indiana team.  They have a 5th year senior that has been one of the best players in the country every year he's been healthy.  We lost to a "meh" Mississippi State team in Shaka's second year and went on to win a double BE title.  If this year results in a down year, I'm confident he'll adjust as needed.  He's too competitive, has been a good coach for a long time, and makes too much money not to adjust as needed.

Every team has down years.  We're not above them.  Maybe this is ours.  Maybe this was one bad game three games into a season.

I'm fine, I'm just willing to share my personal concerns.
And it's not just one game is my point, this is a trend that's been evident for a while now.

Shaka's most successful players have come from immediate transfers or another coach's recruiting.  We're now at the point where every player and part of this program is his and his alone...and it doesn't seem too great right now.

Where did I say Shaka "doesn't have a clue"?  It's because he HAS a clue that his stubbornness to adapt and inability/unwillingness to land impactful frosh thus far is him coming up short.

We've had great success with Shaka, and I hope he's the coach here for another 15 years.  I love the guy and am glad he's coaching my alma mater.  But he's also not added in the margins going into 2023 and 2024, and now we're here in 2025 with a roster that doesn't instill a ton of confidence IMO.  And finally, yes I think Indiana is a meh team.  I was there yesterday and don't think IU is anything but a middle-of-the-road Big 10 team this season.  Will gladly eat crow if I'm wrong, that's how I see it.

[Class71]

Nobody is longing for Woji but I am expressing some worry over the roster construction as long as Shaka refuses to bring in any transfers, particularly when two of his best players were transfers

I know Shaka says he will not take transfers. That he wants to develop players which is good for the players and the school but does he have a choice? Will Marquette base pony up the NIL money etc to get transfers etc? In my time Marquette University dropped football because it was too expensive. They only kept basketball because it was a money maker and to a lesser extent it gave them national recognition.

I believe in today's world of NIL etc. big schools, big conferences and big contributors will largely determine the top teams in the NCAA. Coaches are still very important but great coaches will generally not overcome good coaches with lots of talent that go where the money is.

Many of you follow this game more than I.  I suggest tracking the money players/teams get and how that stacks up against rankings/wins over the next few years. Will anybody be surprised if the winning blue bloods outspend most colleges?

Maybe KenPom will include that as a factor in his ranking methodology.

Of course, there will be exceptions but money tends to attract quality in most markets. I don't like it but the powers to be made the rule changes and smaller schools will likely suffer accordingly IMO.

[brewcity77]

I'm sure it's been mentioned on this board but I'm too lazy to look, so my apologies.
Cody Hatt was on Cam Marotta's pod and told the story about how he pushed for Shaka to take Tyler as a transfer when he first got the job.  Shaka was against it, didn't think he was a fit, but Hatt basically bullied him into calling Tyler.  Shaka loved Tyler and the rest is history.

That story, given the pretty steady decline the past 10 months, is a gigantic red flag for me.  Enormous.

Counterpoint: Tyler ended up here. Shaka trusted Cody enough and came around on Tyler, taking a shot on a kid he wasn't confident in because his staff member was that confident in Kolek. That's how a leader empowers and supports their staff.

Yes, we've had guys that didn't pan out after that, but in my opinion, that Tyler Kolek anecdote proves the exact opposite of the conclusion you are taking from it.

[Galway Eagle]

I'm sure it's been mentioned on this board but I'm too lazy to look, so my apologies.
Cody Hatt was on Cam Marotta's pod and told the story about how he pushed for Shaka to take Tyler as a transfer when he first got the job.  Shaka was against it, didn't think he was a fit, but Hatt basically bullied him into calling Tyler.  Shaka loved Tyler and the rest is history.

That story, given the pretty steady decline the past 10 months, is a gigantic red flag for me.  Enormous.  Rather than Shaka seeing how incredibly wrong his intuition was with Tyler and using that gained knowledge to alter his strategy, he's seemingly doubling and tripling down with lousy project big men no one else even offered (Hamilton, Clark), unheralded guys like Ben Gold, Sean Jones (kinda, was well-known in Ohio), Zaide Lowery, and an iffy hit rate on his top 75 guys in Owens (BIG YIKES) and Parham (hasn't taken the step we all wanted him to, thus far).  Really the only unequivocal hit he's had is Chase.  ONE recruit in 4 years.

If we're not going to utilize the portal whatsoever, we need high school recruiting to be our big advantage.  And it's just not.  We need to be hitting on JJ Andrews, Kon Knueppel, Dooney Johnson, Cam Ward types, and instead we're getting the same caliber of recruit we've always gotten while taking a bunch of fliers on guys who are so clearly not Big East caliber players.  So we're getting fucked on both ends.

I loved the zag when everyone else zigged, but at a certain point you need to grow the unnatural carnal knowledge up and just do all you can to make this a competitive roster annually.  And that means taking transfers and taking swings on the same 5-star talent you did at Texas.  You're doing the fans and yourself a disservice by being this stubborn and getting run out of the gym by a meh Indiana team.

Ben gold was at the nba academy. How many international prospects are "heralded" when they aren't from just over the border in Canada?

Zaide was ranked 105 in 247 and four stars. Guess where Kam was? That's a reasonable person to take this is hardly like Wojo trying to hype up Sacar or Elliott.

Same with Tre, Parham, and Owens. They were all as highly rated as most of our traditional 4 star guys have been. Yes he took a couple fliers on Clark and Hamilton (and Keeyan) but the scholarship total is also bigger now as well. Lastly don't forget Joplin was his recruit.

I'm not going to sit here and act like Shakas recruiting has been unreal (though I am excited about NJ and AS) but it's not like these guys got rated 4 stars and around top 100 because they were offered by MU, they were widely perceived as good prospects. I think you're writing off Owens and Parham too early this year.

I'd argue Shakas hit on Chase and Joplin. Zaide and Parham are likely hits, not superstars but, like Joplin, good players.

[BM1090]

I'm sure it's been mentioned on this board but I'm too lazy to look, so my apologies.
Cody Hatt was on Cam Marotta's pod and told the story about how he pushed for Shaka to take Tyler as a transfer when he first got the job.  Shaka was against it, didn't think he was a fit, but Hatt basically bullied him into calling Tyler.  Shaka loved Tyler and the rest is history.

That story, given the pretty steady decline the past 10 months, is a gigantic red flag for me.  Enormous.  Rather than Shaka seeing how incredibly wrong his intuition was with Tyler and using that gained knowledge to alter his strategy, he's seemingly doubling and tripling down with lousy project big men no one else even offered (Hamilton, Clark), unheralded guys like Ben Gold, Sean Jones (kinda, was well-known in Ohio), Zaide Lowery, and an iffy hit rate on his top 75 guys in Owens (BIG YIKES) and Parham (hasn't taken the step we all wanted him to, thus far).  Really the only unequivocal hit he's had is Chase.  ONE recruit in 4 years.

If we're not going to utilize the portal whatsoever, we need high school recruiting to be our big advantage.  And it's just not.  We need to be hitting on JJ Andrews, Kon Knueppel, Dooney Johnson, Cam Ward types, and instead we're getting the same caliber of recruit we've always gotten while taking a bunch of fliers on guys who are so clearly not Big East caliber players.  So we're getting fucked on both ends.

I loved the zag when everyone else zigged, but at a certain point you need to grow the unnatural carnal knowledge up and just do all you can to make this a competitive roster annually.  And that means taking transfers and taking swings on the same 5-star talent you did at Texas.  You're doing the fans and yourself a disservice by being this stubborn and getting run out of the gym by a meh Indiana team.

You're a good poster, but the 2nd paragraph is off base. Royce and Owens are 4 stars. Let them grow. Zaide was a 4 star top 100ish guy and frankly he's been a good player whenever he's been on the court.

The sophomores are totally fine for sophomores. The Freshmen look promising. The seniors are good rotation guys, maybe more in Chase. The junior class is where the main issue is. Norman just hasn't been impactful (but better this year) and Sean has been injured and/or not good enough. When you run your program on development, the upperclassmen need to be ready when it's their turn for major minutes. Outside of Zaide, the juniors haven't been up tot he task so far.

I just don't think there's real star power on this team, which means the underclassmen need to grow quick. The freshmen and sophomores of this year are way ahead of where the upperclassmen were as underclassmen. I don't think it's going to be a long term issue, but they've got some things to work out this season for sure.

[wadesworld]

Lastly don't forget Joplin was his recruit.

And Oso had Texas in his original final 3.

[onepost]

Counterpoint: Tyler ended up here. Shaka trusted Cody enough and came around on Tyler, taking a shot on a kid he wasn't confident in because his staff member was that confident in Kolek. That's how a leader empowers and supports their staff.

Yes, we've had guys that didn't pan out after that, but in my opinion, that Tyler Kolek anecdote proves the exact opposite of the conclusion you are taking from it.

More than fair, obviously hope your takeaway is more apt than mine.
I guess I view it as a coach that required teeth pulling to take what ended up being an All American talent (I know, no one thought Kolek would become the Kolek we got) and see that married to the stubbornness to adapt with the portal / more talented HS recruits.  Probably unfair of me, but that's how I see it as of now.

[onepost]

Ben gold was at the nba academy. How many international prospects are "heralded" when they aren't from just over the border in Canada?

Zaide was ranked 105 in 247 and four stars. Guess where Kam was? That's a reasonable person to take this is hardly like Wojo trying to hype up Sacar or Elliott.

Same with Tre, Parham, and Owens. They were all as highly rated as most of our traditional 4 star guys have been. Yes he took a couple fliers on Clark and Hamilton (and Keeyan) but the scholarship total is also bigger now as well. Lastly don't forget Joplin was his recruit.

I'm not going to sit here and act like Shakas recruiting has been unreal (though I am excited about NJ and AS) but it's not like these guys got rated 4 stars and around top 100 because they were offered by MU, they were widely perceived as good prospects. I think you're writing off Owens and Parham too early this year.

I'd argue Shakas hit on Chase and Joplin. Zaide and Parham are likely hits, not superstars but, like Joplin, good players.

There's a difference between taking those warranted fliers and depending on said flier as a starting big man, IMO.

Agreed that Tre, Royce, Damarius, Nigel, Adrien are in the range we've usually always been in, which is nice.  But Royce is the only non-frosh I have real optimism in progressing to a legit Big East player to this point.  Damarius has a higher ceiling than anyone Shaka has had and yet is still a deer on ice when he's out there.  I guess my main source of contention is simply that if we're refusing the portal entirely, then the caliber of high school recruit should be better.  And the gulf between what we get and what we've missed on is sizeable.  We should have fewer misses than we've gotten when we aren't fixing said misses with transfers.

Despite all my bitching here, the freshman class gives me a lot of hope.  I'd even like to see Phillips get more run because at least we know the guy can actually shoot the ball.  Add in Sheek, Ian, and Alex and I'm hopeful the talent floor is being raised going forward.

[onepost]

You're a good poster, but the 2nd paragraph is off base. Royce and Owens are 4 stars. Let them grow. Zaide was a 4 star top 100ish guy and frankly he's been a good player whenever he's been on the court.

The sophomores are totally fine for sophomores. The Freshmen look promising. The seniors are good rotation guys, maybe more in Chase. The junior class is where the main issue is. Norman just hasn't been impactful (but better this year) and Sean has been injured and/or not good enough. When you run your program on development, the upperclassmen need to be ready when it's their turn for major minutes. Outside of Zaide, the juniors haven't been up tot he task so far.

I just don't think there's real star power on this team, which means the underclassmen need to grow quick. The freshmen and sophomores of this year are way ahead of where the upperclassmen were as underclassmen. I don't think it's going to be a long term issue, but they've got some things to work out this season for sure.

That's fair.  I'd be remiss to write any of the sophomore class off, because I think Royce will be great and I will hold the Owens stock as long as anyone...just discouraged at the initial lack of improvement from both when the frosh-soph jump should be most noticeable.

But I think you hit the nail on the head: the junior class is a major problem.  And when you add that to seniors that are good-to-great role players only, you get a result like yesterday.  It's early, I know I'm being too harsh, but it was the culmination to a lot of underlying issues that have been bugging me for quite a while.

[tower912]

And the coaching staff sells the fact that Oso went from 38 minutes as a freshman to the NBA.  They sell TKo going from 0 star recruit to the NBA.  Omax from a single digit minutes per game freshman to the NBA.  Kam from a conscience free gunner to the NBA.

Yes, a whole lot of talent that was developed by this coaching staff went out that door.  More talent has been brought in. 

If you can't see the difference year over year in Caedin, I don't know what to tell you.  Of course he has farther to go.  They all do. 

MU has played all 12 players in all 3 games. 

We are watching  the sausage get made right now.

[Pakuni]

And Oso had Texas in his original final 3.

Perhaps losing an Arizona kid to Wojo and Milwaukee winters isn't the best advertisement for Shaka's recruiting. 

I think the criticism here is pretty fair. If you're going to steadfastly avoid the portal, to the point that you make it your identity, then you best hit on a majority of your high school recruits. And some of those hits better be star players.
Based on current trends, that's not happening with Shaka's second, third and fourth classes. Chase is a good Big East starter. Gold is a middling starter. The rest of the 22/23 recruiting classes are either subpar or still question marks.  Still lots of time last year's class, but it's not outrageous to wonder if this strategy is the best way to build a high-level college basketball program in the current environment.

[Viper]

An MVC team? Tell me you don't pay attention to basketball without telling me you don't pay attention to basketball.

based on your bag of diicks posts, I know a helluva lot more than you. Wadesworld is clearly the land of the lost.

[wadesworld]

based on your bag of diicks posts, I know a helluva lot more than you. Wadesworld is clearly the land of the lost.

I'm just scared of my RED BIL.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

I'm sure it's been mentioned on this board but I'm too lazy to look, so my apologies.
Cody Hatt was on Cam Marotta's pod and told the story about how he pushed for Shaka to take Tyler as a transfer when he first got the job.  Shaka was against it, didn't think he was a fit, but Hatt basically bullied him into calling Tyler.  Shaka loved Tyler and the rest is history.

That story, given the pretty steady decline the past 10 months, is a gigantic red flag for me.  Enormous.  Rather than Shaka seeing how incredibly wrong his intuition was with Tyler and using that gained knowledge to alter his strategy, he's seemingly doubling and tripling down with lousy project big men no one else even offered (Hamilton, Clark), unheralded guys like Ben Gold, Sean Jones (kinda, was well-known in Ohio), Zaide Lowery, and an iffy hit rate on his top 75 guys in Owens (BIG YIKES) and Parham (hasn't taken the step we all wanted him to, thus far).  Really the only unequivocal hit he's had is Chase.  ONE recruit in 4 years.

If we're not going to utilize the portal whatsoever, we need high school recruiting to be our big advantage.  And it's just not.  We need to be hitting on JJ Andrews, Kon Knueppel, Dooney Johnson, Cam Ward types, and instead we're getting the same caliber of recruit we've always gotten while taking a bunch of fliers on guys who are so clearly not Big East caliber players.  So we're getting fucked on both ends.

I loved the zag when everyone else zigged, but at a certain point you need to grow the unnatural carnal knowledge up and just do all you can to make this a competitive roster annually.  And that means taking transfers and taking swings on the same 5-star talent you did at Texas.  You're doing the fans and yourself a disservice by being this stubborn and getting run out of the gym by a meh Indiana team.

Oh boy...

The story around Kolek has literally no relevance to taking flyers on guys like Hamilton and Clark when you have a 15-man roster with redshirts to work with.

Also, the story around Kolek has absolutely nothing to do with Shaka's current views regarding transfers.  He  literally brought in multiple transfers that first season in order to be able to field a team.  Yet, despite not initally believing Tyler was a fit, Shaka listened to his staff, brought Tyler in and helped develop him into an All-American and NBA player. Then he did the same with Kam. 

The fact that you're somehow twisting this into a "gigantic, enormous" red flag is hilarious. Almost as hilarious as the "one recruit in 4 years" and judging Owens and Parham 3 games into their sophomore seasons nonsense. 

This has been a competitive roster annually in each of Shaka's 4-years yet you're peeing your pants because of a blowout in the 3rd game of the season.  We also have no idea if IU will actually be a "meh" team.   

Also, if don't see the level of talent improving with our younger guys, the incoming class,  and the other recruits Shaka is in on, you're simply not paying attention or being  willfully ignorant.

[wadesworld]

Perhaps losing an Arizona kid to Wojo and Milwaukee winters isn't the best advertisement for Shaka's recruiting. 

I think the criticism here is pretty fair. If you're going to steadfastly avoid the portal, to the point that you make it your identity, then you best hit on a majority of your high school recruits. And some of those hits better be star players.
Based on current trends, that's not happening with Shaka's second, third and fourth classes. Chase is a good Big East starter. Gold is a middling starter. The rest of the 22/23 recruiting classes are either subpar or still question marks.  Still lots of time last year's class, but it's not outrageous to wonder if this strategy is the best way to build a high-level college basketball program in the current environment.

The point being that Shaka's success here isn't all thanks to guys Shaka wasn't even concerned with as high school recruits like some here want to paint it as.

[Viper]

I'm just scared of my RED BIL.

yeah, I'll admit...unless things change, I'm not looking fwd to Christmas. But, to follow Tower, I'll do my best to be optimistic...on that matchup and the season. (and I apologize to you for being a d-bag)

[CountryRoads]

Agree with a lot of what has been said. Currently, think we are caught with our pants down a bit where the upperclassmen all pretty much turned out to be role players relative to other conference teams' upperclassmen. At some point, the development slows and guys just "are what they are" eventually.

The world isn't perfect. That nice hierarchy we had the last few years where playing time and production correlated nicely with experience isn't going to be a recipe for success this year. In order to have a good season, I think we need a few of the young guys to emerge as the stars and leaders of this team and be given every opportunity to become that. If it turns out they're not ready, then we're f'd anyway.

Nonetheless, should be an interesting year. Don't think Shaka will be stubborn for long and think we'll see some significant changes in our style of play and rotations sooner rather than later. Shaka has his work cut out for him to get this team to the NCAAs, but I think he can do it as he's proven it for over a decade now.

[MuggsyB]

I've now had a full day to think about the situation.  It was one game gents.  And it was somewhat the perfect storm with DeVries and Wilkerson being unconscious from downtown.  Sometimes I really wish you all could be calm and sensible about our team and not worry so much. 

[Billy Hoyle]

I know Shaka says he will not take transfers. T

No, he has said he won't pay big money (e.g., more than anyone on the current roster) for transfers.

[Shooter McGavin]

Agree with a lot of what has been said. Currently, think we are caught with our pants down a bit where the upperclassmen all pretty much turned out to be role players relative to other conference teams' upperclassmen. At some point, the development slows and guys just "are what they are" eventually.

The world isn't perfect. That nice hierarchy we had the last few years where playing time and production correlated nicely with experience isn't going to be a recipe for success this year. In order to have a good season, I think we need a few of the young guys to emerge as the stars and leaders of this team and be given every opportunity to become that. If it turns out they're not ready, then we're f'd anyway.

Nonetheless, should be an interesting year. Don't think Shaka will be stubborn for long and think we'll see some significant changes in our style of play and rotations sooner rather than later. Shaka has his work cut out for him to get this team to the NCAAs, but I think he can do it as he's proven it for over a decade now.

This.  Well said.

The fans were smacked in the face with a potential dose of reality after that beat down.
Hopefully this is a one off for our team. 

[Scoop Snoop]

"It's one game, but..."

But I'm looking forward to the next 4 games-all at Fiserv. As awful as the IU game was, our team has opportunities for redemption, even though two of the opponents are cupcakes. Wins over Dayton and Maryland would go a long way in getting over the IU game and instilling confidence going forward. I do not see the IU game as a foreshadowing of this season.

Bump for Muggsy. You counseling scoopers to be "calm and sensible" is hilarious.  And although I posted today, I did not need a day to sagely consider the matter or pontificate.