Part 2-Migrants. Immigrants, Refugees

[Scoop Snoop]

My new employees from Refugee Resettlement showed up the first day with a great work ethic. They needed little supervision, worked well as a team, and although many spoke fluent English, I was surprised to learn that those with little or no English managed just fine. Many were Bosnians who were in refugee camps in Europe for a year or more before being admitted to the US. They were fed a lot of rice and vowed to never, ever eat rice again.

To repeat from my first post, I turned to RR for business reasons, not humanitarian ones. Yet my relationships (which became friendships) with my employees and their families was a life-changing event. Because it happened over time, I never saw it coming.   

Some had 2-3 years of college before the war and others had good jobs and modest homes. The losses of property were not the most important though. One man was the sole surviving male in his family. Two brothers told me how they had retrieved the rotting corpse of a man who had committed suicide due to the war so that he could be given a proper burial. One brother said "That smell. I couldn't get it off my hands for days." Then, after a long pause added "I was 16". At a gathering of Bosnians, I saw a 16 year old girl whom I knew had found her grandparents shot to death after the invading Serb soldiers had left her village. With all males 14-64+ out fighting, the women and girls were considered fair game by the Serbs. She may have told only a part of what happened that day. This is all just a very small sample the stories I have.

Guy Frank, my RR contact, became a good friend and brought me so many great people. One time he brought 2 men and he was clearly avoiding my queries about their backgrounds. He knew I was uncomfortable taking in highly educated people and putting them into production jobs if there was any chance they could find work in their fields. Finally, I got it out of Guy. They were doctors and could not practice in the US. I told Guy to keep trying to find them jobs in some related field before I would hire them. Fortunately, he did. Another prospective employee-a Russian Jew who was no longer welcome in the post USSR time-brought a thick resume' that I leafed through. He had been an aeronautical engineer in the Russian space program.

I have great respect for people who bravely leave their native countries to rebuild their-and their family's lives. There is a huge difference between reading about their stories or seeing clips on TV and getting to know them face to face.     



 

     

[MuggsyB]

There's no way to have a non-political conversation about this topic. 

[Uncle Rico]

There's no way to have a non-political conversation about this topic. 

As an evangelical, I don't want them in the country tbh

[JWags85]

My new employees from Refugee Resettlement showed up the first day with a great work ethic. They needed little supervision, worked well as a team, and although many spoke fluent English, I was surprised to learn that those with little or no English managed just fine. Many were Bosnians who were in refugee camps in Europe for a year or more before being admitted to the US. They were fed a lot of rice and vowed to never, ever eat rice again.

To repeat from my first post, I turned to RR for business reasons, not humanitarian ones. Yet my relationships (which became friendships) with my employees and their families was a life-changing event. Because it happened over time, I never saw it coming.   

Some had 2-3 years of college before the war and others had good jobs and modest homes. The losses of property were not the most important though. One man was the sole surviving male in his family. Two brothers told me how they had retrieved the rotting corpse of a man who had committed suicide due to the war so that he could be given a proper burial. One brother said "That smell. I couldn't get it off my hands for days." Then, after a long pause added "I was 16". At a gathering of Bosnians, I saw a 16 year old girl whom I knew had found her grandparents shot to death after the invading Serb soldiers had left her village. With all males 14-64+ out fighting, the women and girls were considered fair game by the Serbs. She may have told only a part of what happened that day. This is all just a very small sample the stories I have.

Guy Frank, my RR contact, became a good friend and brought me so many great people. One time he brought 2 men and he was clearly avoiding my queries about their backgrounds. He knew I was uncomfortable taking in highly educated people and putting them into production jobs if there was any chance they could find work in their fields. Finally, I got it out of Guy. They were doctors and could not practice in the US. I told Guy to keep trying to find them jobs in some related field before I would hire them. Fortunately, he did. Another prospective employee-a Russian Jew who was no longer welcome in the post USSR time-brought a thick resume' that I leafed through. He had been an aeronautical engineer in the Russian space program.

I have great respect for people who bravely leave their native countries to rebuild their-and their family's lives. There is a huge difference between reading about their stories or seeing clips on TV and getting to know them face to face.         

Semi-similar, but our head of assembly was a Dreamer/DACA case.  Brought here illegally from Guadalajara when he was young.  Father split a few years after, his mother went back to Mexico when he was a young adult.  He's got a Green Card now and is a total success story.  Great father, homeowner, the consummate hustler. 

But he has a lot of family and acquaintances in the Milwaukee area that aren't legal and he's pretty critical and unforgiving about a lot of them.  He has cousins that are roughly the same age, same situation as him, but didn't attempt to assimilate.  He jokes that his sons (5 and 8) get pissed cause their "primos" can't or won't speak English with them.  He has 3 cousins who just blew off the DACA opportunity despite being in the same situation as him and are living between the lines.

This topic is a tinderbox, and I'm going to largely stay out of it, but I am pretty strong in my one nuance about it.  Legal or illegal, I'm all for immigrants who want to be Americans.  Not so keen on those who just come for opportunities while not desiring much in the way of assimilation or appreciation for the US.  And there are PLENTY of legal immigrants of all racial and ethnic backgrounds who I feel fall into that category.  (I know a number of very affluent and successful ones who actually fall into that category)  And FWIW, I frankly feel the same way about Americans who would move abroad to Mexico, Portugal, or whatever the hot digital expat location is these days while making no effort to learn the language or assimilate into local culture and norms...it not only baffles me but rather pisses me off.

[Scoop Snoop]

The resistance to assimilation goes back to immigrants to the colonies pre revolution. The early Dutch, Germans and other groups often lived in a tight-knit communities. NYC's Little Italy, Chicago's Greektown, and the Boston Irish are just a few examples of later groups who self-isolated. Sometimes it takes one generation before there is assimilation and sometimes it takes longer. I believe a major factor is the acceptance, or lack thereof, of native-born Americans. When the Bosnians joked about their practice of their faith-Islam- being like that of many Christians ("You know...like going to church on Easter and Christmas, but not any other time?") they were spot on. Even as "casual" Muslims, their neighbors often shunned them.

The Bosnians were assimilating and staying together as a group simultaneously. They embraced their new country but were homesick. One completed his college education and earned a degree in Engineering from VCU. RR celebrated when one of the children of Vietnamese refugees graduated from VCU Medical School. Some of my former employees established businesses, and I was flattered when they asked my advice on how to set things up, market their products, etc.

Your criticisms are fair when applied to specific cases, but I would add that there are also many naive born Americans who self-isolate by religion, race, political beliefs, etc. I wrote in my post about the naturalization ceremony at Monticello that an Irishman who addressed the crowd said that he wanted to become a citizen because he wanted to "contribute" as one.

And finally....when my father, of Polish descent, told his family about his engagement to my (mostly) Irish mother. the response that was allegedly is jest? "What's the matter? Couldn't you find a nice Polish girl?"

[Uncle Rico]

The resistance to assimilation goes back to immigrants to the colonies pre revolution. The early Dutch, Germans and other groups often lived in a tight-knit communities. NYC's Little Italy, Chicago's Greektown, and the Boston Irish are just a few examples of later groups who self-isolated. Sometimes it takes one generation before there is assimilation and sometimes it takes longer. I believe a major factor is the acceptance, or lack thereof, of native-born Americans. When the Bosnians joked about their practice of their faith-Islam- being like that of many Christians ("You know...like going to church on Easter and Christmas, but not any other time?") they were spot on. Even as "casual" Muslims, their neighbors often shunned them.

The Bosnians were assimilating and staying together as a group simultaneously. They embraced their new country but were homesick. One completed his college education and earned a degree in Engineering from VCU. RR celebrated when one of the children of Vietnamese refugees graduated from VCU Medical School. Some of my former employees established businesses, and I was flattered when they asked my advice on how to set things up, market their products, etc.

Your criticisms are fair when applied to specific cases, but I would add that there are also many naive born Americans who self-isolate by religion, race, political beliefs, etc. I wrote in my post about the naturalization ceremony at Monticello that an Irishman who addressed the crowd said that he wanted to become a citizen because he wanted to "contribute" as one.

And finally....when my father, of Polish descent, told his family about his engagement to my (mostly) Irish mother. the response that was allegedly is jest? "What's the matter? Couldn't you find a nice Polish girl?"

Understanding American history is the last thing certain Americans want to do

[The Sultan]

Semi-similar, but our head of assembly was a Dreamer/DACA case.  Brought here illegally from Guadalajara when he was young.  Father split a few years after, his mother went back to Mexico when he was a young adult.  He's got a Green Card now and is a total success story.  Great father, homeowner, the consummate hustler. 

But he has a lot of family and acquaintances in the Milwaukee area that aren't legal and he's pretty critical and unforgiving about a lot of them.  He has cousins that are roughly the same age, same situation as him, but didn't attempt to assimilate.  He jokes that his sons (5 and 8) get pissed cause their "primos" can't or won't speak English with them.  He has 3 cousins who just blew off the DACA opportunity despite being in the same situation as him and are living between the lines.

This topic is a tinderbox, and I'm going to largely stay out of it, but I am pretty strong in my one nuance about it.  Legal or illegal, I'm all for immigrants who want to be Americans.  Not so keen on those who just come for opportunities while not desiring much in the way of assimilation or appreciation for the US.  And there are PLENTY of legal immigrants of all racial and ethnic backgrounds who I feel fall into that category.  (I know a number of very affluent and successful ones who actually fall into that category)  And FWIW, I frankly feel the same way about Americans who would move abroad to Mexico, Portugal, or whatever the hot digital expat location is these days while making no effort to learn the language or assimilate into local culture and norms...it not only baffles me but rather pisses me off.

My great grandfather came to the US from Germany around 1910 - refused to learn a lick of English.
My grandfather grew up bilingual.
My dad (Marquette fan) grew up knowing a few phrases.
I don't know any German.

Assimilation takes time. Multiple generations. Some refuse to even do it - it's hard to learn a new language and new customs when you are older. It's even harder when the country you are moving to doesn't really accept you.

[Billy Hoyle]

yeah, this thread is going to last

[The Sultan]

yeah, this thread is going to last

I was trying to not be political, but I can see how it would have been taken that way. So I removed a good portion of the post.

[Scoop Snoop]

yeah, this thread is going to last

Unfortunately, you are probably right. All I am saying is treat immigrants like fellow humans and recognize that they did not decide to leave their home countries on a whim.

I avoided retelling too many horror stories so far, but maybe a few will help illustrate worse case scenarios.

I had two employees from Liberia via RR. With the overthrow of the government, police and soldiers showed up and questioned families with ties to the previous governments. Michael's son answered the questions asked, but the cop did not accept his answers and shot him in the head right in front of his father. Edward's brother, with his 5-year-old son and 7-year-old daughter in tow, were stopped by a soldier because he recognized him as a member of the previous regime's police force. He shot him, and ordered he kids to stop screaming. When they didn't, he shot the kids. I am not one to loan money, but when Edward asked for a loan to get his 6-year-old daughter out of the country, I immediately gave him one.

While many of today's immigrants are fleeing poverty, hunger and oppression, the basic principle applies. Is it asking too much to show at least some compassion, even though you may have legitimate concerns regarding the expenses, consequences and logistics of the huge number of immigrants we are dealing with?

[Scoop Snoop]

I was trying to not be political, but I can see how it would have been taken that way. So I removed a good portion of the post.

Thanks Sultan.

[The Sultan]

While many of today's immigrants are fleeing poverty, hunger and oppression, the basic principle applies. Is it asking too much to show at least some compassion, even though you may have legitimate concerns regarding the expenses, consequences and logistics of the huge number of immigrants we are dealing with?

We are going to need a bunch of immigrants to keep the country young and working with birthrates falling below replacement. Getting law abiding immigrants on a fast path to citizenship is a way better way to not only assimilate them, but also to handle the above consequnces IMO than what we are doing now.

[Pakuni]

Assimilation has always been a two-way street, and resistance has always come on both ends of that street.
Yes, there and always has been a tendency for new immigrant groups to self-isolate for at least a generation and often longer.
At the same time, existing population groups have historically resisted the assimilation of new immigrant groups. Irish and Italian immigrants were denied opportunities and herded into certain neighborhoods in urban population centers. Same with Asians. Same with Latinos. Little Italys and Chinatowns existed not just because immigrants sought out the familiar, but because they often had no other options.
There's obviously a different historical context for African Americans, but it's fair to say their assimilation was not embraced post-slavery.

[Billy Hoyle]

Unfortunately, you are probably right. All I am saying is treat immigrants like fellow humans and recognize that they did not decide to leave their home countries on a whim.

I avoided retelling too many horror stories so far, but maybe a few will help illustrate worse case scenarios.

I had two employees from Liberia via RR. With the overthrow of the government, police and soldiers showed up and questioned families with ties to the previous governments. Michael's son answered the questions asked, but the cop did not accept his answers and shot him in the head right in front of his father. Edward's brother, with his 5-year-old son and 7-year-old daughter in tow, were stopped by a soldier because he recognized him as a member of the previous regime's police force. He shot him, and ordered he kids to stop screaming. When they didn't, he shot the kids. I am not one to loan money, but when Edward asked for a loan to get his 6-year-old daughter out of the country, I immediately gave him one.

While many of today's immigrants are fleeing poverty, hunger and oppression, the basic principle applies. Is it asking too much to show at least some compassion, even though you may have legitimate concerns regarding the expenses, consequences and logistics of the huge number of immigrants we are dealing with?

I'll try not to be political in what I'm about to type. If I cross the line please tell me, Rocky and I'll edit.

The issue is personal for me. My wife is a first generation immigrant; her parents were from the Philippines. She was born before they were citizens, so she's one of those "Anchor babies" (her parents had to go back for a year before they could return). A few weeks ago her brother, a Naval Officer, got a call telling him his wife, who came to the US from France and was naturalized in 2016, needed to come to an ICE office and bring her paperwork. WTF?? They're scared and seeking legal advice. I've also worked with DACA students and they're scared too. They've done everything right and pay taxes despite getting no benefits.

Meanwhile, on the 4th my mom and I spent the evening with her neighbors who became citizens last year after 18 years in the US, coming here as grad students. They had a number of hiccups going through the citizenship process and were finally sworn in last August. Their two kids were born here (more "anchor babies"). We also have longtime family friends where the husband was an Iranian immigrant. Suddenly, my mom realized the immigration and deportation issue went far deeper than cat and dog eaters and Tren de Aragua running wild and shifted her views.

As for the assimilation issue, some cultures have approached it differently. Filipinos traditionally pushed their culture to the background and embraced American culture, primarily due to their country's history of being colonized by multiple countries. In my wife's extended family, none of the kids born in the 70s, 80s or 90s were taught Tagalog by their immigrant parents, with the idea that it would prevent them from fully integrating into American culture.

[Scoop Snoop]

Just to be clear....when I used the phrase "you may have legitimate concerns". the "you" means anyone, not specifically an individual scooper.

Billy, I like your post and hope that Rocky finds it acceptable.

To others reading this-please be careful. I think the subject is important and can easily slip into politics.

[tower912]

Immigrants come to America for opportunity and to escape far worse.  Always have.   The proportion of 'bad' or 'lazy' immigrants is probably lower than those born here who are not as appreciative of the opportunities that still exist.   Improve the processes and welcome them all.  America needs them.

Conversely, xenophobia has always existed, too.  As evidenced by old testament exhortations to love the foreigner in your midst as God does.

[Scoop Snoop]

Immigrants come to America for opportunity and to escape far worse.  Always have.  The proportion of 'bad' or 'lazy' immigrants is probably lower than those born here who are not as appreciative of the opportunities that still exist.  Improve the processes and welcome them all.  America needs them.

Conversely, xenophobia has always existed, too.  As evidenced by old testament exhortations to love the foreigner in your midst as God does.

The bolded was definitely my experience as an employer. I set up a bonus program based upon productivity and also pretty much turned over shop management to the workers, as they had a vested interest in keeping things running smoothly. This freed me to spend the lion's share of my time on sales and marketing.

When a new employee was brought in, he was told that he would be judged by his coworkers, and if they told me he was a slacker, I would fire him upon the employees' evaluation. Although I never intended to have an all-immigrant workforce, this is how it came to be. Some lasted only a day, as they often refused to follow directions and procedures on day 1! The "one-dayers" were typically American workers, but not always.

[JWags85]

My great grandfather came to the US from Germany around 1910 - refused to learn a lick of English.
My grandfather grew up bilingual.
My dad (Marquette fan) grew up knowing a few phrases.
I don't know any German.

Assimilation takes time. Multiple generations. Some refuse to even do it - it's hard to learn a new language and new customs when you are older. It's even harder when the country you are moving to doesn't really accept you.

Your grandfather is the key link.  I'm sympathetic, in some fashion, to fully grown adults who struggle to adopt a new language fluently or assimilate.  But when they start spreading that mentality to their children is where the assimilation runs into issues.  Hence the story about my employee's sons and their cousins who don't speak English despite being born in Milwaukee and living there for their entire lives.

I went to HS with Eastern European immigrant who was born in Milwaukee and lived his entire in Wisconsin.  But he spoken broken English cause he was home schooled through 8th grade and never spoke English at home or anywhere in his non-school life.  That's beyond retaining your culture and heritage, that's setting your child up for failure in the country you're trying to call home.

Immigrants come to America for opportunity and to escape far worse.  Always have.   The proportion of 'bad' or 'lazy' immigrants is probably lower than those born here who are not as appreciative of the opportunities that still exist.   Improve the processes and welcome them all.  America needs them.

Conversely, xenophobia has always existed, too.  As evidenced by old testament exhortations to love the foreigner in your midst as God does.

In my experience through the lens of multiple immigrant employees/friends, the "bad/lazy" immigrants you won't interact with or experience as a business owner or productive member of the economic community.  You have a couple, like many of your successful employees or my friend, who are hardworking, ambitious, driven, and absolute Net Positive++++ to society and the country.  But there are also extended families who follow for the opportunity and better way of life who aren't driven in the same way.  YMMV of course, and there are some who won't have it. 

Manny, my assembly guy, flat out told his brother and cousin who stayed with him when they first came "if you're not hustling and making this work on your own within a year or two, this isn't going to work out".  But many aren't so stern or whatnot and that enables negative perpetuating cycles.

This isn't meant to be a demonizing broad brush, but just further nuance.  Labeling every immigrant as some third world lazy leach is backwards unproductive xenophobic BS.  But brushing off any concerns about the contributions of immigrant groups in a certain area cause you have a positive experiences with the most productive members of that group is kind of like saying you don't believe there is a crime in a place cause you don't experience any and those you associate with aren't inclined to that sort of behavior.

Lets put it this way, I'd hire 25 of Manny to operate all different facets of my business, and would do everything in my power to help them even if they originally entered illegally.  He's become like family.  My father became his power of attorney when he was in a car accident and required a bunch of surgeries and has been a key partner for him in all his citizenship and other legal situations moving forward.

But if each of those 25 had 5-10 extended family/friends, that also came illegally, with the issues, horror stories, and antisocial behavior that he's shared about his experiences?  Then its a very real cost benefit analysis.