To the Rafters

[Billy Hoyle]

To me, the entertaining thing is watching people make the case that the BEPOY, two time all-American, all time leading MU scorer, all time leading Big East scorer DOESN'T deserve to have his jersey in the rafters.
  I am trying to imagine a circumstance, a player, not involving  some heinous scandal, where  members of a fanbase would be actively campaigning against the honoring of a player with those credentials. 
   I simply cannot imagine another fanbase acting this way.  Help me out.  Cite other examples.

He doesn't so soon with other deserving people who have been waiting so long.

What about Mac? National DPOY, GMC POY, First team all GMC, sweet 16 team, all-time shot blocks leader at MU, successful NBA career and played a vital role in rebuilding MU basketball.

[Uncle Rico]

He doesn't so soon with other deserving people who have been waiting so long.

What about Mac? National DPOY, GMC POY, First team all GMC, sweet 16 team, all-time shot blocks leader at MU, successful NBA career and played a vital role in rebuilding MU basketball.

I agree with this analysis

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I'd agree with Mac going up there. But Markus has a much stronger case.

Honestly McNeal is the one I'm not sure about. He wasn't even the best player in his class.

[GoldenWarrior11]

To me, the entertaining thing is watching people make the case that the BEPOY, two time all-American, all time leading MU scorer, all time leading Big East scorer DOESN'T deserve to have his jersey in the rafters.
  I am trying to imagine a circumstance, a player, not involving  some heinous scandal, where  members of a fanbase would be actively campaigning against the honoring of a player with those credentials. 
   I simply cannot imagine another fanbase acting this way.  Help me out.  Cite other examples.

I think for a lot of MU fans (and even many that aren't on Scoop), Markus' era was frustrating, even disappointing, with the lack of team advancement (at all) in the tournament.  Compounded with the Hauser situation, there were a lot of emotions brought on from, again, that lack of postseason success (which many of the the MU greats all got to experience).

To be clear, that is not reflective of Markus; but that it is a reality of the times and teams he was part of. 

So, when folks are questioning the why now for Markus, I think that's where it comes from (not his talents or contributions to the program).  Individually accolade-wise, he is 100% deserving. 

[dgies9156]

It's amazing to me, even five years after he was graduated, how much controversy Markus Howard's recognition has generated. I don't think I've ever seen this before; Jim Chones may have been the closest.

Full disclosure: If this is what the university wants to do, I'm OK with it. It's their rafters and if putting Howard's jersey "up there" makes the administration happy, then OK.There's a whole lot larger questions -- like how many wins in the NCAA our team next year will have! Maybe Howard's jersey will enhance the program. If so, great.

For occasional readers of this great website, I don't like the idea because people in the rafters should be transformative. Thompson, Lee, Chones, Ellis, Lucas, Meminger, Wade ... they're all transformative. Marquette did special things because of their feats. Markus was a great basketball player and I enjoyed watching him play. But he was one-dimensional (didn't play defense well and I don't think he was a playmaker at guard). He carried us in more than a few games but, well, we didn't win as we should have. Obviously, Marquette doesn't agree with me nor do most Scoopers. That's fine with me.

I look forward to the day when Oso and Tyler go up there. They were transformative!

Hint to the administration: You may want to consider hanging a banner with the names of every member of the 1974 NCAA runners-up, a second with the names of the 1977 team and a third with the names of the 2004 Final Four team. Just a thought!


 

[GoldenWarrior11]

It's not quite apples to apples, but a large number of the Colorado fanbase got upset at the jersey retirement of Shaddeur Sanders this Spring (I don't think there was any one upset at Travis Hunter getting that recognition).  The 1990 national championship team still has many individuals that haven't received that honor, and they also have numerous All-Americans that never got that recognition either.

A fan base having mixed emotions on a jersey/number retirement is not exclusive to Marquette University, especially for programs with strong histories and a long list of impactful/transformational players. 

[Billy Hoyle]

I look forward to the day when Oso and Tyler go up there. They were transformative!

Hint to the administration: You may want to consider hanging a banner with the names of every member of the 1974 NCAA runners-up, a second with the names of the 1977 team and a third with the names of the 2004 Final Four team. Just a thought!
 

Oso was good but not "transformative" in any way.

Maybe do what the Bulls did with their championship banners and put the names of the players around the perimeter.

[Galway Eagle]

Let's say you're a HS recruit. You follow TikTok and watch videos on YouTube. Do you care what grainy videos you can find from the 60s and 70s? No. You want to see that recent MU greats got hung in the rafters and that could be you too! McNeal probably doesn't deserve it, we can argue all day about Howard but I'd wager that Shakas trying to get modern guys up there that peak the curiosity of current recruits rather than glorify an era from their grandparents' generation. So expect to see Kolek and Kam probably Crowder (or even Lazar or DJO since McNeal's getting retired) before you see Jimmy Mac or any of the 70s guys or further back.

[Uncle Rico]

Let's say you're a HS recruit. You follow TikTok and watch videos on YouTube. Do you care what grainy videos you can find from the 60s and 70s? No. You want to see that recent MU greats got hung in the rafters and that could be you too! McNeal probably doesn't deserve it, we can argue all day about Howard but I'd wager that Shakas trying to get modern guys up there that peak the curiosity of current recruits rather than glorify an era from their grandparents' generation. So expect to see Kolek and Kam probably Crowder (or even Lazar or DJO since McNeal's getting retired) before you see Jimmy Mac or any of the 70s guys or further back.

If today's kids don't know Don Kojis, that's on them.

[wadesworld]

Imagine Suns fans hating Steve Nash because he never got them to a Finals.

[Galway Eagle]

If today's kids don't know Don Kojis, that's on them.

They'd know Terry Rand!

[Jay Bee]

"Not a playmaker at guard" with 27% and 26% assist rates in his junior and senior year. lol

[Zog from Margo]

I'd agree with Mac going up there. But Markus has a much stronger case.

Honestly McNeal is the one I'm not sure about. He wasn't even the best player in his class.

For both Howard and McNeal, it is based on scoring. Each became the leading scorer in MU history to that point. McNeal was a good defender. He got a lot of steals. I thought James and Matthews were actually better defensively. As for Howard, he was a better defender than Rowsey.

[GoldenWarrior11]

Imagine Suns fans hating Steve Nash because he never got them to a Finals.

Nash made four separate conference finals, while winning many more playoff series. 

I don't think the argument against Howard is that he didn't get to a national championship; it's that he was never on a team that won a single NCAAT game. 

A comparable example to the winless/non-existent postseason would be someone like Zach Lavine, TBH.

[wadesworld]

Nash made four separate conference finals, while winning many more playoff series. 

I don't think the argument against Howard is that he didn't get to a national championship; it's that he was never on a team that won a single NCAAT game. 

A comparable example to the winless/non-existent postseason would be someone like Zach Lavine, TBH.

Markus had 3 shots to win a single elimination game amongst a group of roughly 360 teams.  Steve had 10 years (just with Dallas, 18 overall) to win best of 7 series amongst a group of 30 teams.

Nobody is lauding Joel Embiid because he's led the 76ers to 5 series wins in his career.

[The Sultan]

Oso was good but not "transformative" in any way.

Right. That's was an odd statement.

[TallTitan34]

Personally, I believe that Doc has the weakest resume of the current retired numbers and opens the door to players I wouldn't otherwise consider.

If Doc wasn't already included, the only players I would add would be Markus and Tyler.  I'd consider Crowder with his BEPOY but would lean no.
 
If Doc's entry is based on his time as a player you open the door to guys like Jae, Diener, Mac, Smith, Miller, Jerel, etc.

If Doc's entry is based on post Marquette success in the NBA, you open the door to Jimmy.

[Zog from Margo]

Personally, I believe that Doc has the weakest resume of the current retired numbers and opens the door to players I wouldn't otherwise consider.

If Doc wasn't already included, the only players I would add would be Markus and Tyler.  I'd consider Crowder with his BEPOY but would lean no.
 
If Doc's entry is based on his time as a player you open the door to guys like Jae, Diener, Mac, Smith, Miller, Jerel, etc.

If Doc's entry is based on post Marquette success in the NBA, you open the door to Jimmy.

I agree. I actually think Hutchins was a better college player than Doc. Doc did have some stellar dunks at MU.

[Nukem2]

Personally, I believe that Doc has the weakest resume of the current retired numbers and opens the door to players I wouldn't otherwise consider.

If Doc wasn't already included, the only players I would add would be Markus and Tyler.  I'd consider Crowder with his BEPOY but would lean no.
 
If Doc's entry is based on his time as a player you open the door to guys like Jae, Diener, Mac, Smith, Miller, Jerel, etc.

If Doc's entry is based on post Marquette success in the NBA, you open the door to Jimmy.

Doc and Hutch had remarkably similar numbers and Hutch's scoring numbers were greatly helped by 3 point shot which came after Doc. Doc was also a much better defender. Doc's case was also assisted by his post playing days association with MU.

[GoldenWarrior11]

Markus had 3 shots to win a single elimination game amongst a group of roughly 360 teams.  Steve had 10 years (just with Dallas, 18 overall) to win best of 7 series amongst a group of 30 teams.

Nobody is lauding Joel Embiid because he's led the 76ers to 5 series wins in his career.

If Joel Embiid was a star player who never went to the NBA playoffs, or won a single game/series, there would be plenty of shared public opinions on that one.  I wouldn't even categorize Lavine as a "star player" and that narrative followed him in Chicago and now in Sacramento. 

[Zog from Margo]

Doc and Hutch had remarkably similar numbers and Hutch's scoring numbers were greatly helped by 3 point shot which came after Doc. Doc was also a much better defender. Doc's case was also assisted by his post playing days association with MU.

I do not think the 3-pt shot would have helped Doc much. He was a pretty bad perimeter shooter in college. No doubt that Doc was a better defender, but Hutch was better on offense. Hutch was crazy good in crunch time (although Doc's buzzer shot against ND was the highlight of my four years at MU).

[Nukem2]

I do not think the 3-pt shot would have helped Doc much. He was a pretty bad perimeter shooter in college. No doubt that Doc was a better defender, but Hutch was better on offense. Hutch was crazy good in crunch time (although Doc's buzzer shot against ND was the highlight of my four years at MU).

I do not think the 3-pt shot would have helped Doc much. He was a pretty bad perimeter shooter in college. No doubt that Doc was a better defender, but Hutch was better on offense. Hutch was crazy good in crunch time (although Doc's buzzer shot against ND was the highlight of my four years at MU).

Didn't say it would help Doc. It just helped increase Hutch's numbers which were similar to Doc's.

[CTWarrior]

I don't think the argument against Howard is that he didn't get to a national championship; it's that he was never on a team that won a single NCAAT game. 

He was never on a team that was competitive in an NCAA game.  20+ point blowout losses to a 7 and a 12 seed in his two tries.  His team's BET record is not good, either, though they took 2 out of 3 home games in the NIT.

He deserves to have his jersey retired because of his spectacular individual statistical record, not his contribution to successful teams.  I have a feeling that with a better coach, he'd have won more and scored less.