To the Rafters

[tower912]

Markus was a 2 time All American, all time BE scoring leader, BE POY, etc. Hard to overlook all that.

Nah.  Easy.

[jfp61]

Markus was a 2 time All American, all time BE scoring leader, BE POY, etc. Hard to overlook all that.

Kam Jones made his team better than any of Markus's by being a better basketball player.
Better basketball players have better basketball success.

And, on top of that, basketball teams are undeniably getting better and more efficient each year.

[tower912]

To me, the entertaining thing is watching people make the case that the BEPOY, two time all-American, all time leading MU scorer, all time leading Big East scorer DOESN'T deserve to have his jersey in the rafters.
  I am trying to imagine a circumstance, a player, not involving  some heinous scandal, where  members of a fanbase would be actively campaigning against the honoring of a player with those credentials. 
   I simply cannot imagine another fanbase acting this way.  Help me out.  Cite other examples.

[The Sultan]

Kam Jones over both. At least he has a chance defensivly.

Your team would lose.

[jfp61]

DOESN'T deserve to have his jersey in the rafters.

I don't think many have said this. I had one criticism of it being that it feels "expedited."

But that is more a criticism of the lack of honors for other guys who came before still needing their flowers.

[jfp61]

Your team would lose.

Wojo/Markus's teams lost in violent fashion at the end of every season. And Travis got injured when he had to carry us (and that team had horrific defenses)

[The Sultan]

Wojo/Markus's teams lost in violent fashion at the end of every season. And Travis got injured when he had to carry us (and that team had horrific defenses)

Here we go again. Equating a team's success with individual ability. Sorry, Markus was a better player than Kam.

And I will also mention the fact that the team that Kam lead lost pretty decisively toward the end of this past season.

But that is more a criticism of the lack of honors for other guys who came before still needing their flowers.

Like whom?

[Zog from Margo]

Here we go again. Equating a team's success with individual ability. Sorry, Markus was a better player than Kam.

And I will also mention the fact that the team that Kam lead lost pretty decisively toward the end of this past season.


Like whom?

I blame Wojo for MU's struggles during Markus' years. Wojo was not a good coach for a number of reasons. As to comparisons between Howard and Kam, I would not be so quick to say Howard was better. I think it is debatable. Kam was a key part to better teams and was WAY better than Howard on defense. I agree that Howard was a better scorer. He was unbelievable. I am not surprised they are retiring his jersey.

[jfp61]

Here we go again. Equating a team's success with individual ability. Sorry, Markus was a better player than Kam.

Kam made his teams better teams in a tougher conference. The game of basketball's success truly measures an individual's ability. Just because you love watching threes go in doesn't make an "individual's" ability better.

It's the same issue I have with people who prefer Kobe Bryant to Tim Duncan. You can have all the talent in the world, but some people are just better because they have physical characteristics, makeup, maturity, and basketball intelligence.

Like whom?

CLEARLY Jae. Probably Jimmy. Arguably Dominic and Lazar.

[Uncle Rico]

Kam made his teams better teams in a tougher conference. The game of basketball's success truly measures an individual's ability. Just because you love watching threes go in doesn't make an "individual's" ability better.

It's the same issue I have with people who prefer Kobe Bryant to Tim Duncan. You can have all the talent in the world, but some people are just better because they have physical characteristics, makeup, maturity, and basketball intelligence. CLEARLY Jae. Probably Jimmy. Arguably Dominic and Lazar.

They can hang Jimmy's jersey above the toilet at Erbert's and Gerbert's

[Nukem2]

Kam made his teams better teams in a tougher conference. The game of basketball's success truly measures an individual's ability. Just because you love watching threes go in doesn't make an "individual's" ability better.

Could say the same of Junior Cadougan who made Buzz's teams better even though his stats may have been pedestrian. Those teams were better with Junior on the floor. Buzz found that out in 13-14 when his team lacked what Junior brought to the table. Alas, Junior will never sniff the rafters.

[The Sultan]

Kam made his teams better teams in a tougher conference. The game of basketball's success truly measures an individual's ability. Just because you love watching threes go in doesn't make an "individual's" ability better.

First of all, I don't think the first sentence is all that accurate. I think the Big East of Markus' was better than Kam's Big East. Second, I don't know what evidence there is that he made his teams better than Markus did at all.  And I have no idea what you mean by the last sentence.

CLEARLY Jae. Probably Jimmy. Arguably Dominic and Lazar.

Maybe, no, no and no.  You realize we are talking about a consensus All American, BEPOY, and the all time BE leading scorer right? Dominic James???? Puh-leze.

[jfp61]

Could say the same of Junior Cadougan who made Buzz's teams better even though his stats may have been pedestrian. Those teams were better with Junior on the floor. Buzz found that out in 13-14 when his team lacked what Junior brought to the table. Alas, Junior will never sniff the rafters.

Except those teams had Jae, who should clearly be in the rafters.

[jfp61]

First of all, I don't think the first sentence is all that accurate. I think the Big East of Markus' was better than Kam's Big East. Second, I don't know what evidence there is that he made his teams better than Markus did at all.  And I have no idea what you mean by the last sentence.

Markus Howard – Marquette
Myles Powell – Seton Hall
Saddiq Bey – Villanova
Kamar Baldwin – Butler
Ty-Shon Alexander – Creighton
Naji Marshall – Xavier

Vs.
Ryan Kalkbrenner, Creighton
Micah Peavy, Georgetown
Kam Jones, Marquette
Zuby Ejiofor, St. John's
RJ Luis Jr., St. John's
Eric Dixon, Villanova

I would take this years team up to like -8.5

[The Sultan]

Markus Howard – Marquette
Myles Powell – Seton Hall
Saddiq Bey – Villanova
Kamar Baldwin – Butler
Ty-Shon Alexander – Creighton
Naji Marshall – Xavier

Vs.
Ryan Kalkbrenner, Creighton
Micah Peavy, Georgetown
Kam Jones, Marquette
Zuby Ejiofor, St. John's
RJ Luis Jr., St. John's
Eric Dixon, Villanova

I would take this years team up to like -8.5

2020 Bracket Matrix Projections:

2-Creighton
2-Villanova
3-Seton Hall
5-Butler
8-Providence
9-Marquette

2025 NCAA Actuals

2-St. Johns
7-Creighton
8-UConn
9-Marquette
11-Xavier

So six tournament teams versus five. And half of the six were projected to go to the Sweet 16.

2020 BE was better. Not even close actually.

[The Sultan]

2020 Big East: Ranked first nationally in Conference RPI
2025 Big East: Ranked 4th

[wadesworld]

If Markus wins with sam then credit to Sam.
If Travis wins with Wade then credit to Travis.

Huh.  What is the pattern here?

Anyway, give me Joe Chapman over Markus Howard.  Winning is my main criteria.

[wadesworld]

I don't think many have said this. I had one criticism of it being that it feels "expedited."

But that is more a criticism of the lack of honors for other guys who came before still needing their flowers.

It didn't happen quickly enough, to be honest.

[jfp61]

2020 Bracket Matrix Projections:

2-Creighton
2-Villanova
3-Seton Hall
5-Butler
8-Providence
9-Marquette

2025 NCAA Actuals

2-St. Johns
7-Creighton
8-UConn
9-Marquette
11-Xavier

So six tournament teams versus five. And half of the six were projected to go to the Sweet 16.

2020 BE was better. Not even close actually.

Yea.. and THIS PAST YEARS Marquette team were efficient than ALL of the teams that made the tournament out of the Big East that year. Because basketball keeps getting more efficient over time.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

In the last 20 years, how many 4 year MU players never won a tournament game? I do not know the answer, but I'm curious.

[The Sultan]

Yea.. and THIS PAST YEARS Marquette team were efficient than ALL of the teams that made the tournament out of the Big East that year. Because basketball keeps getting more efficient over time.

Keep shifting the goalposts. You're bound to make a valid point soon!

[The Sultan]

In the last 20 years, how many 4 year MU players never won a tournament game? I do not know the answer, but I'm curious.

No idea. But remember he didn't get his final chance either.