Congrats to Royce

[avid1010]

/quote]

As a freshman, forced to play back up 4 AND 5, he did more than enough to convince me he will be a more than adequate replacement for Joplin and eventually a clear upgrade.  Though maybe not on day 1.

Also, that is the one  position at which Shaka has not yet recruited a clear replacement yet.   So, I anticipate 28-30 minutes and double digit scoring.

Agreed...seeks like a guy that is just going to figure out how to get buckets on a regular basis.  I can't wait to see his development.

[Its DJOver]

Then don't say 95% of college basketball players struggle with consistency, and that he can't be considered a stretch 4 until he fixes that issue.  At an extreme that would mean 5% of college basketball players would meet that criteria, and more likely would mean less than 1% of power forwards would meet your criteria. 

I don't think teams were saying "no need to extend out and guard Parham beyond the arc."  So if he's drawing his defender out, he's stretching the floor on that given night.

Anyhow...team USA talent evaluators obviously liked him enough for tryouts.  That's probably a good indication...

I think you misinterpreted my post.  I did not say he has to be in the top 5% in terms of consistency in order to be a stretch 4.  I said he needs to improve his 3 point shooting above the 28% he shot last year in order to be considered a stretch 4.  Jop struggled with his consistency all 4 years (certainly not in the top 5%) but I would consider him a stretch 4 from his Sophomore year on.  The rest of your post is meaningless since it builds upon a narrative I wasn't presenting.

[brewcity77]

I think you misinterpreted my post.  I did not say he has to be in the top 5% in terms of consistency in order to be a stretch 4.  I said he needs to improve his 3 point shooting above the 28% he shot last year in order to be considered a stretch 4.  Jop struggled with his consistency all 4 years (certainly not in the top 5%) but I would consider him a stretch 4 from his Sophomore year on.  The rest of your post is meaningless since it builds upon a narrative I wasn't presenting.

To be a stretch 4, he just needs teams to respect him enough to guard him at the arc. Being a "stretch 4" doesn't require a magic percentage, it just means the defense is pulled to the perimeter, which opens up the rest of the floor for your teammates to make offensive moves. Teams already guard him on the perimeter, which means he's already a stretch 4.

[Its DJOver]

To be a stretch 4, he just needs teams to respect him enough to guard him at the arc. Being a "stretch 4" doesn't require a magic percentage, it just means the defense is pulled to the perimeter, which opens up the rest of the floor for your teammates to make offensive moves. Teams already guard him on the perimeter, which means he's already a stretch 4.

That's an incredibly loose definition.  There are a ton of players that get guarded on the perimeter.  They are not all "stretching" the defense. You're right that there's no magic percentage, but at some point you have to hit some shots, and he has not done that at a very high clip.

[brewcity77]

That's an incredibly loose definition.  There are a ton of players that get guarded on the perimeter.  They are not all "stretching" the defense. You're right that there's no magic percentage, but at some point you have to hit some shots, and he has not done that at a very high clip.

It's not a "loose" definition, it's just the definition. Players at the 4 that pull defenses to the perimeter are stretch 4s.

Consider Caedin Hamilton and Devin Carter. Different positions, but they serve to make the point. Caedin was left unguarded to the point that he could catch, set, take a long, deep breath, recalibrate, and shoot without a defender moving an inch in his direction. He's not a player that is stretch because no part of the defense extends to him.

Devin Carter, on the other hand, drew defenders to 35 feet out because he hit a number of big shots from super long range. He wasn't good at those shots (sub-25%) but teams picked him up there because of the highlight reel shots he did make.

Royce stretches defenses and we know this because Synergy noted 53 of his 77 catch and shoot attempts were guarded. We'd all love for him to be more accurate out there, but there's no world in which he doesn't clearly fit the "stretch 4" criteria.

[Its DJOver]

It is a loose definition. Short of the Hamilton/Derrick/Edey type players, 99% of all players are guarded out to the three point line. You become a "stretch" player when you're guarded out that far because you're a threat to hit a shot, not just because that's how teams play defense. Every single player we've faced since Shaka has gotten here has gotten guarded out to the perimeter, that doesn't make every player a stretch player, it just means that Shaka runs a high pressure defense that prioritizes TO and guarding players out that far, even if they're not a stretch player, is the best way to force TO. Making some loose definition to support a sub 30% shooter does not make that shooter a player that stretches the floor.

[brewcity77]

Making some loose definition to support a sub 30% shooter does not make that shooter a player that stretches the floor.

I'm sorry that words have meanings, but they do. Royce is a stretch 4. That's not a debatable point.

[Its DJOver]

I'm sorry that words have meanings, but they do. Royce is a stretch 4. That's not a debatable point.

I'm sorry you think so, but the actual statistics say otherwise.

[The Sultan]

It is a loose definition. Short of the Hamilton/Derrick/Edey type players, 99% of all players are guarded out to the three point line. You become a "stretch" player when you're guarded out that far because you're a threat to hit a shot, not just because that's how teams play defense. Every single player we've faced since Shaka has gotten here has gotten guarded out to the perimeter, that doesn't make every player a stretch player, it just means that Shaka runs a high pressure defense that prioritizes TO and guarding players out that far, even if they're not a stretch player, is the best way to force TO. Making some loose definition to support a sub 30% shooter does not make that shooter a player that stretches the floor.

Give it up. You're getting wiped out here.

Royce is clearly a stretch 4.

[cheebs09]

Yeah, Royce may not have stretched defenses this year, but you can tell he's going to be a solid to good shooter. And he's definitely going to get on some heaters that win us games.

His shot selection improving should help his percentage. There were a few times I'm not sure the ball was fully in his hands before he was firing up a shot.

[wildbillsb]

Davante?

"10!"

[Shaka Shart]

His shot selection improving should help his percentage. There were a few times I'm not sure the ball was fully in his hands before he was firing up a shot.

Need to firmly corral the ball before attempting a turnaround jumper from the elbow

[MU82]

As Marquette freshmen, Parham and Ellenson had almost identical 3-point percentages.

And Ellenson was drafted in the first round because the Pistons saw him as a stretch 4.

[tower912]

Like most Piston drafts of that era, they were wrong.

[MU82]

Like most Piston drafts of that era, they were wrong.

Well, nobody said he was a GOOD stretch 4.

[avid1010]

As Marquette freshmen, Parham and Ellenson had almost identical 3-point percentages.

And Ellenson was drafted in the first round because the Pistons saw him as a stretch 4.

From the chatter I have heard...he certainly had stretch 4 NIL offers coming in.  Very happy to see him remain at MU.

[Its DJOver]

As Marquette freshmen, Parham and Ellenson had almost identical 3-point percentages.

And Ellenson was drafted in the first round because the Pistons saw him as a stretch 4.

Really just reinforces my point that you actually have to be able to shoot to be a stretch 4.  Pistons thought they could develop Henry's shot, obviously couldn't. If Royce develops his shot he too can earn that title.

[avid1010]

I think you misinterpreted my post.  I did not say he has to be in the top 5% in terms of consistency in order to be a stretch 4.  I said he needs to improve his 3 point shooting above the 28% he shot last year in order to be considered a stretch 4.  Jop struggled with his consistency all 4 years (certainly not in the top 5%) but I would consider him a stretch 4 from his Sophomore year on.  The rest of your post is meaningless since it builds upon a narrative I wasn't presenting.

So you want to see him hit on 33% to be considered a stretch 4?  If teams stopped guarding him out to the arc, helped off of him, and let him pop/flair freely in the 2-man game he'd do that in his sleep.  They don't do that though...because he's a stretch 4.

[BrewCity83]

As Marquette freshmen, Parham and Ellenson had almost identical 3-point percentages.

And Ellenson was drafted in the first round because the Pistons saw him as a stretch 4.

But Henry got so many more "easy" rebounds...

[Its DJOver]

So you want to see him hit on 33% to be considered a stretch 4?  If teams stopped guarding him out to the arc, helped off of him, and let him pop/flair freely in the 2-man game he'd do that in his sleep.  They don't do that though...because he's a stretch 4.

Royce was offered wide open 3 point attempts frequently.  They were offered to him because he only hit 28% of them.  As I have said, I don't think there's a magic percentage that you need to hit, but you have to shoot it better than he did.  Hopefully he improves in that regard.

[wadesworld]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ki1xTphG34

This is obviously all semantics.  But watch how teams guard actions Parham is involved in.  They completely forget about him and double/collapse on the ball handler (usually Kam).  Do they run at him after the catch as he's going up for a wide open 3?  Yeah.  But that's every defense against any player that makes a 3 point shot on the year.  Teams "ran at" Kalkbrenner as he shot wide open 3s too.  Nobody in their right mind would call Ryan Kalkbrenner a stretch big, even with his 34% three point shooting.

Stretches...stretch the defense.  Defenses collapsed off of Parham.  This is very clear even on a highlight video of Parham's makes.  He wasn't stretching the defense.

I think he has the ability to become that, and I think he'll be our most gifted pure scorer this upcoming season.  But teams schemed to double/collapse off of Parham, rather than staying attached.  It's very clear.  I don't know how they define "open" shots, but when you're catching the ball on the 3 point line while the closest defender to you is in the paint and the defender runs at you, that's a wide open shot in college basketball.  Those were a HUGE majority of Royce's perimeter looks.

[TallTitan34]

Nobody in their right mind would call Ryan Kalkbrenner a stretch big, even with his 34% three point shooting.

I might start calling Theo John (.750 career) and Mike Kinsella (.800 career) stretch 5s.

[tower912]

He will start at the 4.  He, like everyone else, will shoot 3's. 

[avid1010]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ki1xTphG34

This is obviously all semantics.  But watch how teams guard actions Parham is involved in.  They completely forget about him and double/collapse on the ball handler (usually Kam).  Do they run at him after the catch as he's going up for a wide open 3?  Yeah.  But that's every defense against any player that makes a 3 point shot on the year.  Teams "ran at" Kalkbrenner as he shot wide open 3s too.  Nobody in their right mind would call Ryan Kalkbrenner a stretch big, even with his 34% three point shooting.

Stretches...stretch the defense.  Defenses collapsed off of Parham.  This is very clear even on a highlight video of Parham's makes.  He wasn't stretching the defense.

I think he has the ability to become that, and I think he'll be our most gifted pure scorer this upcoming season.  But teams schemed to double/collapse off of Parham, rather than staying attached.  It's very clear.  I don't know how they define "open" shots, but when you're catching the ball on the 3 point line while the closest defender to you is in the paint and the defender runs at you, that's a wide open shot in college basketball.  Those were a HUGE majority of Royce's perimeter looks.

20 second later they help off Jop to double Royce...

[Its DJOver]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ki1xTphG34

This is obviously all semantics.  But watch how teams guard actions Parham is involved in.  They completely forget about him and double/collapse on the ball handler (usually Kam).  Do they run at him after the catch as he's going up for a wide open 3?  Yeah.  But that's every defense against any player that makes a 3 point shot on the year.  Teams "ran at" Kalkbrenner as he shot wide open 3s too.  Nobody in their right mind would call Ryan Kalkbrenner a stretch big, even with his 34% three point shooting.

Stretches...stretch the defense.  Defenses collapsed off of Parham.  This is very clear even on a highlight video of Parham's makes.  He wasn't stretching the defense.

I think he has the ability to become that, and I think he'll be our most gifted pure scorer this upcoming season.  But teams schemed to double/collapse off of Parham, rather than staying attached.  It's very clear.  I don't know how they define "open" shots, but when you're catching the ball on the 3 point line while the closest defender to you is in the paint and the defender runs at you, that's a wide open shot in college basketball.  Those were a HUGE majority of Royce's perimeter looks.

Yep, watching that highlight video, the thing I'm most excited for is the work he's going to do down low. He already had a solid frame and he showed some very nice body control and a soft touch on more than a few of those shots.  The push shot in the Iowa State highlight stating at 12:38 has the Oso stamp of approval on it.

I think a textbook example of how he compared to other players on the team is in the Xavier highlight starting at 8:35, Kam swings the ball to Royce at the top of the key and Jop's defender fakes like he's going to close him down before staying home on Jop.  Now it's a highlight video so of course Royce made the 3, but considering he banked it in on a shot I'm pretty sure he didn't call bank, it's hard not to say the defender made the right call.  If those rolls had been reversed and Jop had gotten the ball at the top of the key, I would bet that Royce's defender would have left him to try to close Jop down.