Shaka's Next 4 Years

[cheebs09]

If he does number 3, his seat will be ice cold. I'm hoping we can get number 2.

If we want to be a top 25 program, I'm not sure number 3 gets us outside of that. Winning in March is hard and takes luck. We also didn't have great injury luck in March for the previous two years.

If we are going to focus on development, we are going to need some pretty big leaps though. There was a lot of hope for Owens before his offseason injury. I know we have some high potential freshman.

We really need Chase to take a leap on offense and hopefully Zaide can take a large leap.

[MuggsyB]

Regarding the portal, suggesting it's antithetical to "culture" is honestly stupid.  That doesn't mean we shouldn't develop players, and Shaka has, but all hands on deck should be our process.  Where would some of these teams be without their impact transfers? 

[HutchwasClutch]

Regarding the portal, suggesting it's antithetical to "culture" is honestly stupid.  That doesn't mean we shouldn't develop players, and Shaka has, but all hands on deck should be our process.  Where would some of these teams be without their impact transfers? 

Bullseye Muggsy! 😊

[PointWarrior]

How does this conversation parlay to the "NCAAT is a crapshoot just gotta get there with a decent seed" crowd that hammered me last year?

This is antithetical to that.

I am team Shaka Lifetime Contract. The tourney success will come.

He should dip into the portal from time to time though. I think that piece was an effort to keep Kam / Oso / Tyler together.

The CoS believes the tourney is a crapshoot when their better seeded team loses, even consistently. 

[muwarrior69]

We have to get a knock down shooter brother dgies.  I think it's possible ZL, DO, and RP will take big jumps, but there are a lot of question marks.  It really depends how good our Frosh are.

I would rather have a bull that can get offensive rebounds and score in the paint.

[The Equalizer]

Regarding the portal, suggesting it's antithetical to "culture" is honestly stupid.  That doesn't mean we shouldn't develop players, and Shaka has, but all hands on deck should be our process.  Where would some of these teams be without their impact transfers? 

I agree with this.

I've never understood all the comments from those who suggest we should avoid transfers because it might scare off current players.

How good is our culture if it results in players becoming so fragile or so selfish that they put their own playing time ahead attempts to improve the team? That their response to being challenged by a potentially better player is to run away?

I suspect the board consensus is wrong about this. I strongly suspect a guys like Kam Jones and Stevie Mitchell and David Joplin would have welcomed all comers--they know that stiff competition every day in practice is not a threat to their playing time but an opportunity to get better and motivation to improve.

[Galway Eagle]

To help you further:

Lost in S16 as a 3 in 2012- performance at our seed.

Lost in E8 as a 3 in 2013- out performance of our seed. 

Lost in S16 as a 2 last year- underperformance of our seed, compounded by a dumpster fire performance against an 11 seed that needed a miraculous conference tournament to have even made the field. 

So your best argument is the gigantic, unheard of upsets of a 4 and 7 beating a 3 when they performed at and above their seed line both years? 

Let's take MU out of the equation. Your argument is tantamount to saying that Purdue in 2022 should be happy with the sweet 16 after losing to #15 seed st peters. Because they performed to seed and what happens opposite of you is irrelevant. But realistically, due to upsets, performance to seed doesn't happen in a vacuum and to say otherwise is ridiculous.

In 2012 given that Mizzou lost we become the top seed in that bracket, performance to seed is no longer sweet 16 is changes to elite 8. there's no way in hell after losing to Florida you were sitting there golf clapping saying "we did what our seed was supposed to".

Similar to 2013, IU & Miami lost, we became the favorite to advance to the Final four as a 3 seed vs a 4 seed. You weren't sitting there clapping saying "we outperformed" maybe if we'd played IU and lost I could see that argument saying "we lost to the top seed and took down the 2 seed" but that's not what happened we upset someone, then got upset.

[BLWarrior91]

Buycks took 2 years to make the NBA and 6 after leaving MU to play more than 14 games. Vander and DJO played a combined 17 NBA games.  Butler and Jae were 2nd rounders coming out.  No one predicted in their wildest dreams how Butler's career took off. 

The only Buzz NCAA underperformance was a two pt loss in 2010.  He won a first round game without Dominic in 2009.  His teams continued to be tough, clutch, and poised when the season hung in the balance. 

The one and only accomplishment Shaka holds over Buzz is the BET championship. 

Buzz didn't way outperform Shaka to current, but is still ahead at this juncture. 

Buzz also inherited a loaded program coming off three straight tournaments and he was there for the prior season as an assistant.  Shaka came into a program that fired its coach and the cupboard was pretty bare.  Yes, he inherited Oso but he developed him into an NBA player.  He had to re-recruit Stevie and Kam as well.

He started at a much lower spot than Buzz and built a strong program that hasn't had its tournament breakthrough yet.

[jeffreyweee]

Dude, if you think that 2011 season was better than any under Shaka, you're still drunk from last night. Buzz had 5 NBA players (Jimmy, Jae, DJO, Buycks, Blue) and barely made the tourney. He had one year in his first four (2012) that was close to Shaka's years 2 & 3. But no, his best year in that span (3-seed, S16) was still not better than Shaka's (2-seed, S16).

I don't understand the way Marquette fans categorize players. Buycks, DJO, and Vander Blue were not NBA players. That was proven every single time they got a shot on a roster.

People keep saying Shaka had 3 NBA players with another coming in Kam. Shaka has not had 4 NBA players. Oso is borderline so far. Tyler is averaging less than 5 minutes a game and less than 2 points. O-Max is under 4 points a game.

None of these guys have proven to be an actual NBA player. It's embarrassing to count them this way, either in bragging about alumni, or using them as "X coach had Y NBA players".

Further, the quality of a college player doesn't translate to the NBA in that way. Jerel was an elite college player, and never an NBA player. Tyler was by far our best player, even if Oso ends up a more successful NBA player.

That's all a side note to the thread's discussion. Which in general, Buzz and Shaka were both quite good coaches for MU in their early years. How much you value March vs regular season will dictate your appreciation between the two. It is a shame that Shaka loses to a significantly lower seed seemingly every year. Last year was unbelievably poor shooting. This year we got outplayed.

[willie warrior]

I criticize the coach plenty. He should have known that Sean was going to be out and that Hamilton wasnt ready. Not addressing both of those limited our ceiling. The thing I like about Shaka is that he is reflective.  I trust he will learn from this.

I just recognize that weve gotten a 7 seed or better 13 times in 46 years. A performance well inside the top 3rd is not something that needs defending. I'm not satisfied,  I want more.  I still think it's reasonable to believe that Shaka can get us there

\Sure hope you are right. Not seeing it from Shaka, based on this years performance and what is in the cupboard. Now if he can get some banger and 3 point shooting commits, maybe.

[1SE]

In any given year, I can buy that the tourney is a crapshoot.

But there are coaches and programs that systematically under/over perform.

Right now for Shaka in the NCAAT, the outlier is the FF - the mode is underperformance.

You can get NCAAT success in one of two ways - getting a high seed and performing to expectations, or getting a low seed and overperforming. I'm happy with either path - but so far we haven't really seen either one - and Shaka hasn't done either in a long time. If that hasn't changed by 2029 I'd certainly be on the Shaka hot seat wagon.

If we scrape in next year as a 10 or 11 and win a game or two that would be progress. If we have a solid season but then lose our first round game as a 5 or 6 that would be regression.

[dpucane]

What does COLE stand for?

[tower912]

What does COLE stand for?

Cult
Of
Low
Expectations

I am usually CONE
Cult
Of
No
Expectations

[willie warrior]

The question in this thread is a really good one because it spells out what rabid fans expect from the program. Coach Shaka has spoiled us -- we're back to expecting great things annually. In effect, he has purged the Wojo, Dukiet, Dean and other years from our systems.

We were plagued this year by lack of bench strength and inside power. St. John's, UConn, Creighton and now New Mexico just bullied us inside. Also, we simply wore down because Coach Shaka had limited confidence in his bench.

Maybe I'm an outlier but if I've learned anything in life, there's what you tell the public (called "spin") and what you really do. Of course, Coach Shaka isn't going to telegraph any portal moves because he doesn't want to upset the returning, existing team, who he's counting on for development for the core of next year's team.

I'm not convinced Coach Shaka won't be in the portal, if he finds the right person for his team. He's got the "relationships" and "growth" down. What we need is Victory in March and April -- and Coach Shaka knows that better than any of us.

He does not have the growth down.


o down.

[Warrior_2002]

Total speculation here but I feel Shaka could easily shift his direction on the portal now that this group of his first class is coming to a close. He has never "closed the door" to the portal but only wants to use it in a way that makes sense for each group. I think he just felt the connections and culture were so grounded that he didn't want to bring someone in to throw it all off. It didn't work out obviously but now is a time to refresh as there is a lot of youth and a chance to solidify this new group's culture. Similar to when he got here and grabbed Kolek he could easily shift back in that direction to solidify gaps. I sense there could be more movement than we've seen the last couple years similar to his year 1 and 2. That doesn't mean his philosophy has changed. It's just a time to reflect and make sure we have the right gaps filled and the right leadership in place. Maybe wishful but he will use the portal if necessary in my opinion.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Total speculation here but I feel Shaka could easily shift his direction on the portal now that this group of his first class is coming to a close. He has never "closed the door" to the portal but only wants to use it in a way that makes sense for each group. I think he just felt the connections and culture were so grounded that he didn't want to bring someone in to throw it all off. It didn't work out obviously but now is a time to refresh as there is a lot of youth and a chance to solidify this new group's culture. Similar to when he got here and grabbed Kolek he could easily shift back in that direction to solidify gaps. I sense there could be more movement than we've seen the last couple years similar to his year 1 and 2. That doesn't mean his philosophy has changed. It's just a time to reflect and make sure we have the right gaps filled and the right leadership in place. Maybe wishful but he will use the portal if necessary in my opinion.

There's no similarity to when Kolek transferred in. He had 3 returning players and had to essentially build an entire team. That's not the case anymore.

[Warrior_2002]

Not saying exactly the same. Just feel it's a new group not the same situation as the last couple years.

[NickelDimer]

Total speculation here but I feel Shaka could easily shift his direction on the portal now that this group of his first class is coming to a close. He has never "closed the door" to the portal but only wants to use it in a way that makes sense for each group. I think he just felt the connections and culture were so grounded that he didn't want to bring someone in to throw it all off. It didn't work out obviously but now is a time to refresh as there is a lot of youth and a chance to solidify this new group's culture. Similar to when he got here and grabbed Kolek he could easily shift back in that direction to solidify gaps. I sense there could be more movement than we've seen the last couple years similar to his year 1 and 2. That doesn't mean his philosophy has changed. It's just a time to reflect and make sure we have the right gaps filled and the right leadership in place. Maybe wishful but he will use the portal if necessary in my opinion.

I kind of agree with you. I don't think Shaka is deluding himself about the roster flaws with this Sr class leaving

[willie warrior]

I don't ever see a day where Shaka's seat gets warm at MU. His floor is far too high for that to happen. That aside though if he wants to be considered one of the all time great MU coaches he's going to need some deep tourney runs and his early exits are hard to ignore

Will somebody please start the bunson burner. That might help things along.

[Juan Anderson's Mixtape]

In any given year, I can buy that the tourney is a crapshoot.

But there are coaches and programs that systematically under/over perform.

Examples, please. 

And before you say Michigan State, I will remind you Izzo lost in the first round as a 2 seed, in the second round as a 3 seed, and twice as a 1 seed in the Sweet 16.

[panda2.0]

Examples, please. 

And before you say Michigan State, I will remind you Izzo lost in the first round as a 2 seed, in the second round as a 3 seed, and twice as a 1 seed in the Sweet 16.

Shaka and Gard both underperform off the top of my head.

[brewcity77]

I don't understand the way Marquette fans categorize players.

It's simple. Play in the NBA, you are an NBA player. Hope that helps.

[Pakuni]

Examples, please. 

And before you say Michigan State, I will remind you Izzo lost in the first round as a 2 seed, in the second round as a 3 seed, and twice as a 1 seed in the Sweet 16.

In 26 tournament appearances, an Izzo team flamed out four times.
Doesn't that kind of prove his point?

[tower912]

Every team that didn't win the championship underperformed.  Pitino underperformed.  The Big 10 hasn't won a championship in a quarter century. 

[jesmu84]

Every team that didn't win the championship underperformed.  Pitino underperformed.  The Big 10 hasn't won a championship in a quarter century. 

I *think* the definition here is that "underperform" means losing before your seed says you should