It’s Time to Think Bold

[Uncle Rico]

How well does he use the portal?

Mostly his recruits but has 2 guys in the rotation that are transfers according to the stat sheet

[Uncle Rico]

Will Wade gets a win over one of his former haunts as NC State beats VCU

[Newsdreams]

Will Wade gets a win over one of his former haunts as NC State beats VCU

Translates into a win over 🤙🏼

[Uncle Rico]

Translates into a win over 🤙🏼

Quiet!  Quiet piggy!

[Uncle Rico]

Probably worth keeping an eye on Mick Cronin at UCLA.  He should be wearing out his welcome at this point and he's a Midwest-ish kind of guy.

USF has a game tonight, too.  Should be an easy W for them but after losses to St. Thomas and Central Michigan during the Shaka era, want to see possible hires make sure they handle the cupcakes

[The Sultan]

Probably worth keeping an eye on Mick Cronin at UCLA.  He should be wearing out his welcome at this point and he's a Midwest-ish kind of guy.

USF has a game tonight, too.  Should be an easy W for them but after losses to St. Thomas and Central Michigan during the Shaka era, want to see possible hires make sure they handle the cupcakes

Yeah Bryan Hodgson used to work for Nate Oats, who of course is from Wisconsin originally. Maybe he could bring in Oats as a senior assistant like Steve Lavin did with Gene Keady.

[Uncle Rico]

Yeah Bryan Hodgson used to work for Nate Oats, who of course is from Wisconsin originally. Maybe he could bring in Oats as a senior assistant like Steve Lavin did with Gene Keady.

I meant San Francisco but I will add this USF to the watch grid.

[DoctorV]

Probably worth keeping an eye on Mick Cronin at UCLA.  He should be wearing out his welcome at this point and he's a Midwest-ish kind of guy.

USF has a game tonight, too.  Should be an easy W for them but after losses to St. Thomas and Central Michigan during the Shaka era, want to see possible hires make sure they handle the cupcakes

I know you're poking fun, but I disagree with Brews take that Shaka would be let go after b2b under .500 seasons.

I know it's historically been the case, but I assert that Shaka would be a trend setter and make it back as the first coach to do so in Marquette history.

Lucky for us we won't have to find out

[brewcity77]

I know you're poking fun, but I disagree with Brews take that Shaka would be let go after b2b under .500 seasons.

I know it's historically been the case, but I assert that Shaka would be a trend setter and make it back as the first coach to do so in Marquette history.

Lucky for us we won't have to find out

I sincerely hope we don't have to find out. I think Shaka's model working would be the best thing for college basketball. From a theory perspective, I think retention and getting to know the players in your program over years is a good thing. I want this to succeed and want our players to all grow and thrive.

That said, I think people forget how quickly it all turned south on Wojo. There was zero thought that Wojo would be dismissed when we got dumped from the Big East Tournament on March 10th. 8 days later, The Case Against came out. I don't think that alone made the decision, but I think its virality was part of why the Board moved their planned meeting up from March 22nd to March 19th and made it easier for Bill Scholl to explain why the time was right to dismiss Wojo. Roughly 24 hours after The Case Against came out, Wojo was fired.

If we have a losing season and Shaka's model is largely seen as the reason for it, we're going to end up with months of fan acrimony growing. The initial student calls of "Use the Portal" will get louder and likely more vitriolic as the season goes on. At that point, will Shaka go to the portal next summer, or will he double down on the 15 committed scholarships we have? I don't know.

But I guarantee the board will see and feel the pressure of a losing season. They know that our CBB investment brings back $3 to the university for every dollar spent (as Lovell said). They know that it is our most visible marketing arm. And they've seen what happens when you slide into DePaul territory. A second losing season in a row would be viewed as catastrophic.

In this century, around the league...

• UConn had losing seasons in both 2017 & 2018, then fired Kevin Ollie despite a national title 4 years earlier and NCAA berth and win 2 years earlier.
  
• Butler had losing seasons in both 2021 and 2022 and fired LaVall Jordan despite top-25 kenpom finishes in two of the three previous years.
  
• Georgetown had losing seasons in both 2016 and 2017 and fired JT3 despite 8 bids in the 10 prior years, then had losing seasons in 2022 and 2023 and fired Ewing despite a tourney bid the year before.
  
• Providence had losing seasons in 2010 and 2011 and fired Keno Davis in year 3. PC did let Tim Welsh return in 2007 (19 years ago) after losing seasons in 05 & 06.
  
• Villanova (Neptune), Xavier (Steele) and St. John's (Anderson) fired coaches that never had losing seasons. St. John's did let Norm Roberts return in 2010 (16 years ago) after losing seasons in 08 & 09.
  
• Creighton and Seton Hall haven't had consecutive losing seasons this century.
  
• ONLY DePaul has allowed multiple coaches to return after consecutive losing seasons.

.
So...do you really think the board would let Marquette become DePaul? Because that's what they would be on the verge of if they let a coach come back after consecutive losing campaigns.

[Uncle Rico]

I know you're poking fun, but I disagree with Brews take that Shaka would be let go after b2b under .500 seasons.

I know it's historically been the case, but I assert that Shaka would be a trend setter and make it back as the first coach to do so in Marquette history.

Lucky for us we won't have to find out

He's gone if they have another losing season after this season.

I'll do the dirty work of updating the board of how possible candidates look.

[mug644]

Brew, I think your take is somber and the situation could possibly play out like that, though I don't think two under .500 seasons would quite get us there. Two areas of skepticism:
--while The Case Against served a bit as the last straw, you seem to be downplaying the negativity around Wojo that had been present for at least a couple of years, centered on his decent recruiting but poor coaching. Certainly the administration was well aware of the Projo v Nojo positions among the fanbase.
--you sound as though you are already drafting your Case Against, even despite your hope that Shaka's model would work.

Regardless, I can't imagine Shaka being so stubborn or the administration being so short-fused that there wouldn't be a change to no-portal model before any sort of firing happened. If, after two under .500 seasons happens, there will be pressure to change. But, Shaka wouldn't ever get another P5 job if he refuses to change  if his approach is not successful enough for MU. And, MU is so enamored with Shaka as THE person representing the university that they will push him to adapt before they push him out.

[withoutbias]

Brew, I think your take is somber and the situation could possibly play out like that, though I don't think two under .500 seasons would quite get us there. Two areas of skepticism:
--while The Case Against served a bit as the last straw, you seem to be downplaying the negativity around Wojo that had been present for at least a couple of years, centered on his decent recruiting but poor coaching. Certainly the administration was well aware of the Projo v Nojo positions among the fanbase.
--you sound as though you are already drafting your Case Against, even despite your hope that Shaka's model would work.

Regardless, I can't imagine Shaka being so stubborn or the administration being so short-fused that there wouldn't be a change to no-portal model before any sort of firing happened. If, after two under .500 seasons happens, there will be pressure to change. But, Shaka wouldn't ever get another P5 job if he refuses to change  if his approach is not successful enough for MU. And, MU is so enamored with Shaka as THE person representing the university that they will push him to adapt before they push him out.

This nails it.  The idea that some article by a fan is what caused Marquette's decision makers to decide to move on from Wojo because a couple hundred fans might see it is some sort of inflated sense of self worth.  Coupled with the fact that posts are suggesting the coaching staff went out of their way to make brew look bad by talking up bad basketball players and making him look foolish for predicting a second place finish in the Big East.  You need to understand why coaching staffs talk up the players they do in the offseason.  Did you really think Sean Jones and Caedin Hamilton were going to be better players than Chase Ross and Ben Gold?  There's a reason you heard very little about Chase and Ben.  They are established players.  We know they will be good.  Sean and Caedin are guys we need to step up, so the coaching staff is pumping out positive stuff to the media.  If Caedin was going to be an All Big East player, there's no way the staff is shouting that from the top of the mountain before the season.  There's a strategy to these things.

[The Sultan]

This nails it.  The idea that some article by a fan is what caused Marquette's decision makers to decide to move on from Wojo because a couple hundred fans might see it is some sort of inflated sense of self worth.

Well, brew said above that he didn't think it was the only reason. But also, the article was referenced by college basketball people on Twitter, so it wasn't simply "a couple hundred fans."

Furthermore, I have heard from others that it encapsulated arguments that boosters and others had been making to the administration for awhile. Though I do think there was more momentum after the loss to Georgetown than people think.

[MU82]

I simply didn't think we had alums who would combine to pony up $7M. The case against was pretty obvious - no disrespect to brewski, who presented it well..

[brewcity77]

This nails it.  The idea that some article by a fan is what caused Marquette's decision makers to decide to move on from Wojo because a couple hundred fans might see it is some sort of inflated sense of self worth.

Not why I referenced it, and if you read the entire post you'd know that. I specifically said "it made it easier for Bill Scholl to explain why the time was right to dismiss Wojo." I think there's a good chance the conversation was going to happen regardless, but the timetable changed because of the virality of the article.

But the point was more how quickly things can change when you're losing. This place may be a microcosm of a small portion of the fanbase, but imagine how toxic it would be if we finish this year 15-17 and are worse next year. Imagine what the students will be chanting at games. Imagine what the admin will be thinking as season ticket numbers and overall sales further decline. Imagine what the boosters will do if they think the brand is being damaged.

Coupled with the fact that posts are suggesting the coaching staff went out of their way to make brew look bad by talking up bad basketball players and making him look foolish for predicting a second place finish in the Big East.

What?        I make predictions of finish every year and know when I write them that I'll get many wrong, because that's what happens when you make predictions. I don't view this season as a reflection on myself regardless. If my skin was that thin I would've stopped posting previews and bracketology years ago.

[brewcity77]

--while The Case Against served a bit as the last straw, you seem to be downplaying the negativity around Wojo that had been present for at least a couple of years, centered on his decent recruiting but poor coaching. Certainly the administration was well aware of the Projo v Nojo positions among the fanbase.

I think that quietly started here after Shaka's first year when he didn't replace Justin. O-Max and Joplin keeping up the level of success kept that dull roar quiet, but there's been pushback on the RGV model from the moment fans realized we weren't really competing in the transfer market, and last year stoked that a bit as Kam wore down.

--you sound as though you are already drafting your Case Against, even despite your hope that Shaka's model would work.

Definitely not, but looking ahead I can see how sticking to RGV in spite of declining results would basically let that story write itself.

Regardless, I can't imagine Shaka being so stubborn or the administration being so short-fused that there wouldn't be a change to no-portal model before any sort of firing happened. If, after two under .500 seasons happens, there will be pressure to change. But, Shaka wouldn't ever get another P5 job if he refuses to change if his approach is not successful enough for MU. And, MU is so enamored with Shaka as THE person representing the university that they will push him to adapt before they push him out.

Considering how strongly Shaka has discussed his wishes to not use the portal, I think it's more likely he'd pull a Bennett or Wright and walk away.

There seems to be a consensus that he will go to the portal when he needs to or when encouraged to by the powers that be. Reading everything he's said on it, all the articles and product push around RGV, I just don't believe it.

I really hope the model works, if it doesn't I hope Shaka embraces selective portal use, but until I see him take a transfer, I really don't think it will happen. Building it his way is a major part of why he left Texas to come here. I think Shaka truly believes in his convictions, and RGV is at the center of those convictions.

[CountryRoads]

If, after two under .500 seasons happens, there will be pressure to change.

It'd be after this season. Zero chance they finish under .500 and say let's run the same team back but without Ross and Gold. In the event they finish under .500, they will cut bait on some upperclassmen and upperclassmen to be. I think people underestimate how much negativity there would be if the team finished under 500.

[wadesworld]

The reaction here to the first slow start in Shaka's tenure is absolutely bonkers.

[GoldenEagles03]

It'd be after this season. Zero chance they finish under .500 and say let's run the same team back but without Ross and Gold. In the event they finish under .500, they will cut bait on some upperclassmen and upperclassmen to be. I think people underestimate how much negativity there would be if the team finished under 500.

Perhaps but I think the more realistic scenario is that they win just enough to hover around the 'First 8 out' range winning like 17 or 18 games. Never really threatening to get it but just kind of hanging out there. Then what happens?

[The Sultan]

The reaction here to the first slow start in Shaka's tenure is absolutely bonkers.

How? No one wants him fired now (except Farley, but he's just a troll.) People are speaking mostly on hypotheticals. But you can't say there aren't concerns - ones that have carried over from how last year ended.

[wadesworld]

How? No one wants him fired now (except Farley, but he's just a troll.) People are speaking mostly on hypotheticals. But you can't say there aren't concerns - ones that have carried over from how last year ended.

I mean, talking about how Shaka laid out the groundwork for his downfall at Marquette because he didn't replace Justin Lewis with a portal guy?  When the guy he trusted to replace Justin Lewis left early for the NBA after a Big East regular season and Tournament title?  It's cool if people were concerned and upset at the time I guess, but we have 20/20 hindsight here.  To hang onto that so that at the first sign of rocky waters we can point to that?!

I don't know, maybe that should be looked at as proof that Shaka might know what he's doing?

Down years happen.  We are 5 games into this season.  Of course there are concerns.  Very few programs don't have concerns.  Shaka has won 67% of his games in his career and 70% of his games at Marquette.  He took over a dying program and immediately had them in the Tournament.  He won a Big East regular season and Tournament title.  He's got a 9, 2, 2, and 7 seed in the Tournament.

We're 3-2 5 games in and we're talking about how Shaka was digging his own grave after year 1?

Absolutely bonkers.

[Uncle Rico]

Let's keep this thread on topic.  Thank you for your attention to this matter!

[The Sultan]

I mean, talking about how Shaka laid out the groundwork for his downfall at Marquette because he didn't replace Justin Lewis with a portal guy?  When the guy he trusted to replace Justin Lewis left early for the NBA after a Big East regular season and Tournament title?  It's cool if people were concerned and upset at the time I guess, but we have 20/20 hindsight here.  To hang onto that so that at the first sign of rocky waters we can point to that?!

I don't know, maybe that should be looked at as proof that Shaka might know what he's doing?

Down years happen.  We are 5 games into this season.  Of course there are concerns.  Very few programs don't have concerns.  Shaka has won 67% of his games in his career and 70% of his games at Marquette.  He took over a dying program and immediately had them in the Tournament.  He won a Big East regular season and Tournament title.  He's got a 9, 2, 2, and 7 seed in the Tournament.

We're 3-2 5 games in and we're talking about how Shaka was digging his own grave after year 1?

Absolutely bonkers.

I guess if you want to point out all the whacky outliers in a topic, go ahead. Most of the discussion here has been pretty reasonable and not "bonkers" at all.

[Spaniel with a Short Tail]

[muwarrior69]

I mean, talking about how Shaka laid out the groundwork for his downfall at Marquette because he didn't replace Justin Lewis with a portal guy?  When the guy he trusted to replace Justin Lewis left early for the NBA after a Big East regular season and Tournament title?  It's cool if people were concerned and upset at the time I guess, but we have 20/20 hindsight here.  To hang onto that so that at the first sign of rocky waters we can point to that?!

I don't know, maybe that should be looked at as proof that Shaka might know what he's doing?

Down years happen.  We are 5 games into this season.  Of course there are concerns.  Very few programs don't have concerns.  Shaka has won 67% of his games in his career and 70% of his games at Marquette.  He took over a dying program and immediately had them in the Tournament.  He won a Big East regular season and Tournament title.  He's got a 9, 2, 2, and 7 seed in the Tournament.

We're 3-2 5 games in and we're talking about how Shaka was digging his own grave after year 1?

Absolutely bonkers.

I think the MODS should unlock the Daily Dose of Doom Thread to lift our spirits.