Transfer Portal vs. Recruiting, retaining , developing

[PJDunn]

is this thread about player development, or Viper's suboptimal sales skills?

[Uncle Rico]

...sounds like an order. Enjoy it, damn it.! Rather, are you rationalizing? Which we all do. To say stop thinking of MU as a lucky underdog seems to imply you've felt MU has been a lucky underdog. Not attempting to be snarky, but 56-17...So what? No transfers out. Maybe not necessarily a good thing. 2-seeds? Great!! I definitely applaud that success. The spotlight on the program has been fantastic. But...MU didn't do much with those back2back high seedings. National championship or bust, every year, my friend. It's been 47 yrs, but shouldn't expectations be nothing less? I work in sales so my analogy is that of coming close to annual sales goals, or blowing the doors off those annual sales goals.(not easy in Joe's economy, btw) Clear succession plan at every position? Ok, sure...if players are good. Otherwise, maybe not a good thing. Other programs emulating MU?...DePaul and Gtown come to mind...so, yes, I'll agree with that.

🙄

[brewcity77]

The goal of the program every year should be a national championship.

It should be, and that's my goal for them as well. However, that doesn't mean I can't embrace the successes or see anything less than that as a failure. Double Big East titles was awesome, getting back to the Sweet 16 was awesome, and while the NC is the goal, I can still recognize the steps along the way as awesome.

[tower912]

Viper, you keep doing you.  I will keep being me.

[Nukem2]

It should be, and that's my goal for them as well. However, that doesn't mean I can't embrace the successes or see anything less than that as a failure. Double Big East titles was awesome, getting back to the Sweet 16 was awesome, and while the NC is the goal, I can still recognize the steps along the way as awesome.

Yep, those things are true accomplishments. Need to savor those. Building blocks toward a NC.

[avid1010]

...sounds like an order. Enjoy it, damn it.! Rather, are you rationalizing? Which we all do. To say stop thinking of MU as a lucky underdog seems to imply you've felt MU has been a lucky underdog. Not attempting to be snarky, but 56-17...So what? No transfers out. Maybe not necessarily a good thing. 2-seeds? Great!! I definitely applaud that success. The spotlight on the program has been fantastic. But...MU didn't do much with those back2back high seedings. National championship or bust, every year, my friend. It's been 47 yrs, but shouldn't expectations be nothing less? I work in sales so my analogy is that of coming close to annual sales goals, or blowing the doors off those annual sales goals. Clear succession plan at every position? Ok, sure...if players are good. Otherwise, maybe not a good thing. Other programs emulating MU?...DePaul and Gtown come to mind...so, yes, I'll agree with that.

Edit: removed politics

I don't get your analogy.  It seems like it would be like blowing the doors off of your annual sales goal vs having the best sales of any person in any competing business.

[Viper]

Viper, you keep doing you.  I will keep being me.

the point of it all, yes? Offer a point, an opinion. Maybe trapeze the high wire. Some agree. Some don't. Debate. Have fun with it. So yeah, you do you. All good.

[Goose]

Viper

I agree with much of your post. There is very little to be disappointed with the three years with the exception of not going far enough in the tournament. I'm all in on Shaka and will support any system of building a program that he decides to take. That said, my bar for grading the success of season will likely change, maybe as soon as this season.

IMO, we are finally going to see what Shaka run team looks like because virtually all of the minutes will be going to Shaka recruited guys and the two remaining guys are going to be part of a different look team this year. The bar for success really does come down to tournament success, especially if you want to keep fan excitement at this high of level. Average fans lose interest quickly and I do not want to see the excitement fade away.

Retain guys or use the portal it makes no difference to me. I like what Shaka is doing but it does not give him a free pass. My expectations for this year are probably higher than most on here and anxious to see what the Shaka recruited players are capable of doing.

[MU82]

Viper

I agree with much of your post. There is very little to be disappointed with the three years with the exception of not going far enough in the tournament. I'm all in on Shaka and will support any system of building a program that he decides to take. That said, my bar for grading the success of season will likely change, maybe as soon as this season.

IMO, we are finally going to see what Shaka run team looks like because virtually all of the minutes will be going to Shaka recruited guys and the two remaining guys are going to be part of a different look team this year. The bar for success really does come down to tournament success, especially if you want to keep fan excitement at this high of level. Average fans lose interest quickly and I do not want to see the excitement fade away.

Retain guys or use the portal it makes no difference to me. I like what Shaka is doing but it does not give him a free pass. My expectations for this year are probably higher than most on here and anxious to see what the Shaka recruited players are capable of doing.

We are mostly in agreement on all of this. I have very high expectations for the upcoming season.

Just one factual clarification: While Shaka's recruits will get all the frontcourt minutes, our best player by far, Kam Jones, is a Wojo recruit who probably will lead the team in minutes played. Another Wojo recruit, Stevie Mitchell, will get significant PT. I doubt that either Kam or Stevie would have developed anywhere near as well under Wojo as they have under Shaka, who deserves tons and tons of credit obviously.

The season's success will be based largely on whether guys like Gold, Ross, Lowery and Norman can show the kind of improvement that several players did the previous two years. Recruit Retain Develop means little without the "Develop." Those of us with high expectations are betting on Shaka, his assistants and the players themselves making that happen. 

[Goose]

82

Clarification---after three years of playing under Shaka I think Stevie and Kam are Shaka guys. That said, the number of Shaka recruits makes up the majority of the team and that will be the big difference, imo. While I already miss TK and Oso, I am excited to see the new team and expect that we will see multiple guys stepping up big this season.

[Shooter McGavin]

82

Clarification---after three years of playing under Shaka I think Stevie and Kam are Shaka guys. That said, the number of Shaka recruits makes up the majority of the team and that will be the big difference, imo. While I already miss TK and Oso, I am excited to see the new team and expect that we will see multiple guys stepping up big this season.

100% they are Shaka's guys.  Include Oso with this as well.  They could have opened up their recruitment or Shaka could have recruited over them but didn't. 

[Goose]

Shooter

I agree. My point is more they are better prepared to play in what I believe Shaka 2.0 will look like than they were even a year ago. I have heard some outstanding things about how the defense looks and they have the athletes to play big time defense moving forward. I loved our offense the past two years, but very excited to see the defense next season.

[MUfan12]

I agree. My point is more they are better prepared to play in what I believe Shaka 2.0 will look like than they were even a year ago. I have heard some outstanding things about how the defense looks and they have the athletes to play big time defense moving forward. I loved our offense the past two years, but very excited to see the defense next season.

Need some current guys to make a leap with their outside shooting to make Shaka 2.0 effective after Kam and Jop depart. Miletic is a good start.

[MUbiz]

MU was #17 in defense last year and #21 offense according to kenpom. If we can be a top 10 defense this year, the sky is the limit. Being longer and athletic should help accomplish that goal.

[Goose]

Mufan12

I am expecting a lot of dunks this coming season.

[MUfan12]

I am expecting a lot of dunks this coming season.

If they can force turnovers and get out in transition, wonderful. That eases some of my concerns about the offense. But I worry they'll be extra susceptible to teams packing it in once they are in the halfcourt offense.

[Shooter McGavin]

Shooter

I agree. My point is more they are better prepared to play in what I believe Shaka 2.0 will look like than they were even a year ago. I have heard some outstanding things about how the defense looks and they have the athletes to play big time defense moving forward. I loved our offense the past two years, but very excited to see the defense next season.

I do like the length and athleticism that is being recruited and am excited for the defensive ability and intensity to rachet up a couple notches because of it. 

Your point is well taken. 

[MU82]

Goose/Shooter - Reasonable points on "Shaka guys." He did a great job re-recruiting and developing them.

[Viper]

Viper

I agree with much of your post. There is very little to be disappointed with the three years with the exception of not going far enough in the tournament. I'm all in on Shaka and will support any system of building a program that he decides to take. That said, my bar for grading the success of season will likely change, maybe as soon as this season.

IMO, we are finally going to see what Shaka run team looks like because virtually all of the minutes will be going to Shaka recruited guys and the two remaining guys are going to be part of a different look team this year. The bar for success really does come down to tournament success, especially if you want to keep fan excitement at this high of level. Average fans lose interest quickly and I do not want to see the excitement fade away.

Retain guys or use the portal it makes no difference to me. I like what Shaka is doing but it does not give him a free pass. My expectations for this year are probably higher than most on here and anxious to see what the Shaka recruited players are capable of doing.

...thx Goose. And I agree with you both on expectations and on the portal or no portal.  My attempted point before was, if guys coming in behind those departing (either due to eligibility or for the pro's) are not comparable in talent, was retention a positive? From a culture standpoint, probably yes. From a winning standpoint? probably no. Will go back to my sales analogy for Avid1010.  Retain clients YOY...great. But, if some of those clients have become unprofitable, better to launch.  Find new through old fashioned cold calls/RFP or cherry pick (portal). Hoping retention of the current roster is both a culture and on-court win.

[Goose]

Viper

I trust Shaka and believe once NIL rules get adjusted that the retention way is going to look very smart. That said, puts a great deal of pressure on the development side of things and I think that is risky business. It is going to be interesting to see how things shake out post TK/Oso. I think it was an easy sell to retain guys because he recruited down the food chain a bit and they knew TK and Oso were getting a ton of minutes. I think the retention style will be far more difficult next offseason than the previous 2-3 years.

[tower912]

With the scholarship change, I can see more guys buried at the end of the bench planning their departure and creating dissension.
I do not see Shaka in the portal until there are several unexpected departures at the same time.

[avid1010]

...thx Goose. And I agree with you both on expectations and on the portal or no portal.  My attempted point before was, if guys coming in behind those departing (either due to eligibility or for the pro's) are not comparable in talent, was retention a positive? From a culture standpoint, probably yes. From a winning standpoint? probably no. Will go back to my sales analogy for Avid1010.  Retain clients YOY...great. But, if some of those clients have become unprofitable, better to launch.  Find new through old fashioned cold calls/RFP or cherry pick (portal). Hoping retention of the current roster is both a culture and on-court win.

You lose money on clients? 

[Herman Cain]

With the scholarship change, I can see more guys buried at the end of the bench planning their departure and creating dissension.
I do not see Shaka in the portal until there are several unexpected departures at the same time.

There are multiple ways to utilize the Roster change. The most important change  is that all sports become equivalency sports , which now means partial scholarships can be granted in basketball.

In theory there can be guys with full scholarships and a some
partial scholarship scout team players. So potentially some decent quality practice players can be recruited . Guys who are maybe low D 1 quality who want to experience life in a major conference. For example , 12 full scholarship and 6 decent practice guys on 50 percent equals the 15 total scholarships.

[The Sultan]

There are multiple ways to utilize the Roster change. The most important change  is that all sports become equivalency sports , which now means partial scholarships can be granted in basketball.

In theory there can be guys with full scholarships and a some
partial scholarship scout team players. So potentially some decent quality practice players can be recruited . Guys who are maybe low D 1 quality who want to experience life in a major conference. For example , 12 full scholarship and 6 decent practice guys on 50 percent equals the 15 total scholarships.

Thanks for summarizing what has already been discussed.

[Uncle Rico]

There are multiple ways to utilize the Roster change. The most important change  is that all sports become equivalency sports , which now means partial scholarships can be granted in basketball.

In theory there can be guys with full scholarships and a some
partial scholarship scout team players. So potentially some decent quality practice players can be recruited . Guys who are maybe low D 1 quality who want to experience life in a major conference. For example , 12 full scholarship and 6 decent practice guys on 50 percent equals the 15 total scholarships.

https://www.burntorangenation.com/recruiting/2016/10/18/13319232/shaka-smart-texas-longhorns-matt-coleman-charles-obannon-jr-jarred-vanderbilt-jase-febres-royce-hamm