What is our all-time 12?

[lawdog77]

Thrillho

Thanks for granting me that Novak was "in the same league" as a Howard. That said, I think you missed that I said Novak is the best shooter ever to wear an MU uniform. There is no comparison or discussion on the topic.

There are few things that are 99% accurate in discussion of players or skills. Jim Mac is the greatest shot blocker ever, Wade is the greatest player, Novak is the greatest shooter and Howard is the greatest scorer in school history.

When Markus was a purely spot up shooter (freshman year), he shot 54% from 3. One could argue he was the best shooter in MU history.Both were incredible.

[Mutaman]

You have to remember that that was a completely different era.

The top 10 teams didn't lose many games and MU did not have as difficult a schedule as they have now in a major conference and much more parity.

The final poll in 1971 ( before NCAA Tournament

UCLA 25-1
Marquette 27-0
Penn 27-0
Kansas 25-1
USC 24-2
South Carolina 23-4
Western Kentucky 21-5
Kentucky 22-4
Fordham 25-2
Ohio State 19-5

Only24 total losses for the top 10.

This year that total was 71 before the conference tournaments.

I was responding to "Diener statistically > Kolek > Meminger.  And it's not really even close."

Come on !

[Frenns Liquor Depot]

Novak was elite.  He couldn't really create his own shot until sr year.  I remember being very pleased to see him develop and take the three amigos under his wing to be competitive in our first year in the BEast.

Markus was like a cheat code in a video game when he was hot and amazing on O. In three years he beat George Thompsons scoring record.  It wasn't because he was selfish...he was amazing.

[THRILLHO]

Thrillho

Thanks for granting me that Novak was "in the same league" as a Howard. That said, I think you missed that I said Novak is the best shooter ever to wear an MU uniform. There is no comparison or discussion on the topic.

There are few things that are 99% accurate in discussion of players or skills. Jim Mac is the greatest shot blocker ever, Wade is the greatest player, Novak is the greatest shooter and Howard is the greatest scorer in school history.

I think Novak had maybe the best looking shot, and given your previous insistence that Greg Elliott was not a shooter, I'm inclined to think that you include shooting form aesthetics as a significant portion of your rating.

[tower912]

Markus is probably my favorite player since Wade.  I would enjoy watching a horse game between prime Novak and prime Howard.

[MU82]

The good news is that Markus was at least one of Marquette's top 100 players.

But dg is right - he was no O-Lee.

[Goose]

Thrillo

No Greg was not a shooter. Novak and Howard were shooters. Kam is almost a shooter. Greg was not a shooter by my definition.

Tower
I would take Howard in horse because he had more shot making ability. Flat out shooting 20-25footers I'll take Novak all day long.

[oldwarrior81]

did anyone catch the Bucks auction featured an item with Steve Novak?

This one-of-a-kind experience includes a chance for four (4), to tour the Froedtert & Medical College of Wisconsin Sports Science Center, training facility of the Milwaukee Bucks, and play a game of HORSE with Marquette University and Milwaukee Bucks Legend, Steve Novak. Experience to be fulfilled on a mutually agreed upon date.

I figured if I bid $500 that;s about $400 per minute on that horse game.

[MuggsyB]

Markus is probably my favorite player since Wade.  I would enjoy watching a horse game between prime Novak and prime Howard.

I'd take Rowsey vs both of them in horse. 

[Badgerhater]

Markus Howard is one MU's greatest offensive basketball players.  He deserves to be in the conversation of top MU players of all time.

I don't ever again want to see a talent like Howard so mis-coached and required to be the only player who could win a game for Marquette. 

[Badgerhater]

Deleted....accidentally hit quote instead of modify

[tower912]

I'd take Rowsey vs both of them in horse.

He would definitely add to the enjoyment.   

[Lennys Tap]

Yes.  Markus was a generational talent.

Michael Jordan was a generational talent. LeBron James was a generational talent.

Markus Howard? No.

[CountryRoads]

Markus Howard is one MU's greatest offensive basketball players.  He deserves to be in the conversation of top MU players of all time.

I don't ever again want to see a talent like Howard so mis-coached and required to be the only player who could win a game for Marquette.

Think the main problem is that Wojo couldn't sell the program to other top talent while Markus was here. According to 247, here are the recruiting rankings (not counting Wojo's first year):

2015: 12
2016: 22 (Howard)
2017: 58
2018: 111
2019: 77
2020: 21

Notice the drop off from 2017-2019.

[wadesworld]

I'm going to start with a question:

How many of you who are/were Green Bay Packers fans switched to the New York Jets because Aaron Rodgers was traded? Or the Vikings because that's where Bret Favre ended his career. Suffice to say, very few of you. You are Packers fans!

That's how I view Marquette.

I'm a Marquette fan and while I really enjoy certain players, I appreciate them because of what they did for Marquette. Not because of their personal statistics. Over the years, we've had guys who probably could shoot as well as Markus. But they subjugated their individual talent so that the combination of the whole was far better than the parts. When that happens, like 2024, the team makes the tournament and has memories.

Markus was a great shooter, a good off-guard and probably a great human being (probably only because I never met him personally). He was a crappy defender who probably could barely defend me. When he was at Marquette, we made the NCAA one time and we were wiped off the floor by a mid-major team that we would have mauled just a generation prior.

Some of you blame coaching, specifically, Coach Wojo. But I look at the floor leadership of Tyler or Oso, how they pick their teammates up or scold their teammates when there is a need. The floor leadership is two ways -- Tyler and Oso assert themselves and their teammates thrive on Tyler and Oso's guidance. How many times have we seen Tyler, for instance, wave players around, move them and set them up? How many times did Tyler forsake a shot and pass instead, for the good of the team? Some of you, perhaps, saw things I didn't but I really don't ever recall Markus being a team player. The lack of floor leadership and no sense of team during the Markus era was one of the reasons why the best team Coach Wojo had broke up -- and one of the big reasons why Coach Wojo was fired.

Markus simply was not the floor leader that made Marquette better and you can't blame Coach Wojo totally for that.

Some of you have ridiculed me for my cryptic reference to LSU and Pete Maravich. Like Markus, Maravich was a greater player that I saw frequently growing up. But LSU at the time had a very crappy basketball program, no tradition of winning and was fortunate that Daddy brought sonny boy to Baton Rouge. Unlike LSU, we have an expectation at Marquette of winning, making the tournament and contending for national titles. If we didn't, Coach Wojo would still be our coach and Markus not only would be on my list but might supplant DWade as the best player ever.

I hope nobody ever challenges Markus' scoring records. Otherwise, that probably means we have a one-dimensional basketball team that, if we schedule enough cupcakes, might be a .500 team. I don't want to go back to where we were just four short years ago and I certainly don't want to honor it. If the best thing I can say about a Marquette team is we had a great scorer, then I'm probably going to puke.

By the way, Bart Starr was the greatest Packers quarterback ever! His five world championships speaks to his greatness. Bret Favre, Aaron Rodgers and even Jordan Love can only dream of accomplishing what Mr. Starr did.

I ready the first 3 paragraphs and laughed. Reconcile that with having Sam Hauser on your all time great MU list and not having Markus Howard. Lol.

[MuggsyB]

He would definitely add to the enjoyment.

The Rowsey triple (and-1) vs Providence, when he did his "thing" with his left hand, is one of the greatest single shots I've seen watching basketball.   He couldn't get his shot off the same way Howard or Novak could but the kid was an incredible pure shooter.  You add his left-hand, and probably his assortment of trick shots, and I'll take Rowsey.   

[Lennys Tap]

I'd take Rowsey vs both of them in horse.

Nobody can duplicate The Thing.

[MuggsyB]

Nobody can duplicate The Thing.

I tried a bunch of times in an open gym Lenny and wasn't even close to hitting the rim.  I still have no idea how he did that. 

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I'm a Marquette fan and while I really enjoy certain players, I appreciate them because of what they did for Marquette.

I'm curious Dgies, what did Oliver Lee and Sam Hauser do for Marquette that you feel Markus did not?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

If the criteria is best Marquette careers, I'd go:

B Ellis
B Lee
D Kojis
D Meminger
D Wade
E Tatum
G Thompson
J Chones
J Crowder
M Howard
M Lucas
T Kolek

[MU82]

If the criteria is best Marquette careers, I'd go:

B Ellis
B Lee
D Kojis
D Meminger
D Wade
E Tatum
G Thompson
J Chones
J Crowder
M Howard
M Lucas
T Kolek

We have the exact same 12 except I had Diener instead of Kojis. I fully allow that recency bias and/or familiarity could have played a role in that. I saw Diener do some great things for a Final Four team that I loved watching. I was a few months old when Kojis completed his senior season.

Something must be wrong with us, though, because we valued our All-American all-time scoring leader over Oliver Freakin' Lee.

[WarriorFan]

B Ellis
B Lee
D Kojis
D Meminger
D Wade
E Tatum
G Thompson
J Chones
J Crowder
T Smith
M Lucas
T Kolek

No Marcus on my list.  I just don't see him as a complete basketball player.
I think this board has under-rated Tony Smith because he played during the dark days of MU ball, but he was a heckufa player.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I loved Tony Smith. Saw him play live pretty much his entire career. 

Markus was way better. AND I know how to spell his name too.

[marqfan22]

Markus was one of the most dominant offensive weapons in the country...and a national student-athlete representative. Definitely one of best dozen players at MU.

[CTWarrior]

Thompson
Meminger
Chones
Lucas
Lee
Ellis
Wade
Howard
Kolek

Tough to leave out any one of those 9, IMHO. After that, it's a matter of personal preference. I'd probably go with:

Tatum
Crowder
Diener

But I could understand the inclusion of any number of others: Walton, McNeal, Matthews, James, Smith, Hayward, Lackey, Kojis, Smith, etc.

I like this list a lot, though as amazing as he was, I can't help having the nagging feeling that we would have been a better team had Howard left and the elder Hauser stayed that last season (assuming he was healthy).  But I think all that means is that I would put Tatum in the top nine and  Howard in the last three and the 12 would be the same.   The way we played the last two years with everyone involved was so much better than hero ball under Wojo, and it really clouds my judgement on Markus, who I think I would have loved playing for Shaka.