Mahomes the NFL QB GOAT?

[jesmu84]

Discuss

[wadesworld]

Yes.

[JWags85]

I think all that remains in the discussion is counting stats and titles won.  There is nothing that Brady did as a QB that Mahomes can't do or do better.  Ive always said Rodgers was a more talented/higher ceiling QB than Brady, but he just didn't win when needed and that was a viable strike against him.  Mahomes has none of that problem.  He's terrifying.

While we all know its a totally different time and game, I found it amusing yesterday when looking at a Mahomes career stat accumulation that he's already, at 28 and after 6 seasons as a starter, eclipsed first ballot HoF QB Terry Bradshaw in yards and TD passes.

[tower912]

Goat Jr.   That is what I posted as the game ended last night.    That is where I will remain for another few years.

[Uncle Rico]

Goat Jr.   That is what I posted as the game ended last night.    That is where I will remain for another few years.

As always, silly arguments.  However…

6 seasons as a starter, 3 Super Bowl wins and 4 appearances.  6 AFC Title games.  The 2 they lost were in overtime.

In the modern NFL, that kind of franchise consistency is incredibly difficult.  He’s been one of the constants on the team.  Reid and the Chiefs were making the playoffs with Alex Smith but Mahomes elevated them to champions.

He has 2 MVP’s in the regular season and 3 in the Super Bowl (He shouldn’t have been in their 1st win but that’s a quibble).  He figured out away to be successful with a motley crew of wideouts and numbers below his standard.

I said this in the Rodgers thread, he’s the antithesis of him.  No excuses, no cryptic BS, just wins.

Like the Patriots and Brady, the Chiefs have taken advantage of a dysfunctional division but even then, I’d argue that’s what great organizations should do. 

Brady got 3 in 4 years and didn’t win the 4th until a decade later.  That seemed hard to fathom thinking back on it but they lose those 2 to the Giants.  Will Mahomes have a similar path?  It’s unlikely Andy Reid will be there in a decade and at that point Mahomes is 38.  That’s a lot of football.

As were caught in the moment, it seems easy to say he’ll win a few more.  Maybe.  But regardless of where he goes from here, there’s little doubt he’s one of the best to play the position and if he can adapt as he gets older, he’ll certainly have opportunities

[tower912]

I am a fan of Mahomes.   It is certainly possible he end up with a legacy like Brady's.  When he does, I will rejoin the GOAT conversation.   Until then, great player, likely the best of his generation, the one that starts all comparisons.  Respect.

[MU82]

Statistically, it's probably too early to say greatest ever simply because of Brady's sheer volume of career accomplishments, but I'd take Mahomes right now over Brady in his prime.

Who else would even be in the picture? Montana? I'd take Mahomes every time over Montana in his prime.

As a fan of great athletes in general, I love watching Patrick Mahomes play football. I was 99% certain the Chiefs would win the game after Shanahan chose to take the ball first in OT, and 100% certain after the Niners only got a FG. It was almost anticlimactic - Mahomes was going to lead the Chiefs to victory.

Bears fans would probably say that for all of Mahomes' accomplishments, #1 by far was winning a Super Bowl with Matt Nagy always getting in his ear!

Some interesting Mahomes stuff from Yahoo Sports:

++ In his six seasons as a starter, Mahomes has won six AFC West titles, never finished worse than the AFC title game, won 83% of his playoff games, and won three Super Bowls.

++ He's started 114 games for the Chiefs (including playoffs), and they've lost just four of those games by more than one score.

++ Mahomes vs. Brady: Playoff stats before turning 30 (and Mahomes is still just 28)…
‌++++ Mahomes: 5,135 pass yards, 41 TD, 8 INT, 3 Super Bowl titles, 3 Super Bowl MVPs
++++ Brady: 3,217 pass yards, 20 TD, 9 INT, 3 Super Bowl titles, 2 Super Bowl MVPs

++ Stat of the day: Mahomes is the first NFL player to win three championships and two MVPs in their first seven seasons, and he's just the seventh to do so in major North American sports, joining Larry Bird, Bill Russell, Stan Musial, Joe DiMaggio, Mickey Mantle and Guy LaFleur.

[Uncle Rico]

Statistically, it's probably too early to say greatest ever simply because of Brady's sheer volume of career accomplishments, but I'd take Mahomes right now over Brady in his prime.

Who else would even be in the picture? Montana? I'd take Mahomes every time over Montana in his prime.

As a fan of great athletes in general, I love watching Patrick Mahomes play football. I was 99% certain the Chiefs would win the game after Shanahan chose to take the ball first in OT, and 100% certain after the Niners only got a FG. It was almost anticlimactic - Mahomes was going to lead the Chiefs to victory.

Bears fans would probably say that for all of Mahomes' accomplishments, #1 by far was winning a Super Bowl with Matt Nagy always getting in his ear!

Some interesting Mahomes stuff from Yahoo Sports:

++ In his six seasons as a starter, Mahomes has won six AFC West titles, never finished worse than the AFC title game, won 83% of his playoff games, and won three Super Bowls.

++ He's started 114 games for the Chiefs (including playoffs), and they've lost just four of those games by more than one score.

++ Mahomes vs. Brady: Playoff stats before turning 30 (and Mahomes is still just 28)…
‌++++ Mahomes: 5,135 pass yards, 41 TD, 8 INT, 3 Super Bowl titles, 3 Super Bowl MVPs
++++ Brady: 3,217 pass yards, 20 TD, 9 INT, 3 Super Bowl titles, 2 Super Bowl MVPs

++ Stat of the day: Mahomes is the first NFL player to win three championships and two MVPs in their first seven seasons, and he's just the seventh to do so in major North American sports, joining Larry Bird, Bill Russell, Stan Musial, Joe DiMaggio, Mickey Mantle and Guy LaFleur.

Montana is in the conversation.  He played in an era where you could still pummel the QB.  Go back and look at the hits he took in his career.  Different ballgame.  4 titles in less than a decade, 2 without Jerry Rice.

Beat the ‘81 and ‘88 MVP’s in the Super Bowl.  Beat Marino and Elway in the other 2.  He was Joe Cool because the game was never over when he was QB.

He played in era against other mini-dynasties as well.  Washington and New York were great franchises in his era and he beat the indomitable Bears defenses twice, including once in the cold in “Bears weather”.

Durability was his greatest flaw.  If he plays in this era, he probably avoids some of those injuries.  But in his era, I’d argue his success was as impressive as any QB ever

[MU82]

Good points on Montana, Unk.

He had plenty to work with even before Rice and Taylor arrived, and he had the most innovative coach of his era. But excellent points on the hits that QBs took back then and the teams he went against. I'd still take Mahomes over Montana because of the variety of ways he can beat you - witness his two great runs yesterday.

That Mahomes won it all this season with a bunch of WRs who had Crisco on their hands, and a less-than-full-speed Kelce was truly an amazing accomplishment.

[BrewCity83]

Bart Starr.  Five NFL Championships in seven years. 

More arguments here:

https://www.si.com/nfl/packers/news/starr-not-brady-remains-at-nfl-playoffs-summit

[Uncle Rico]

Bart Starr.  Five NFL Championships in seven years. 

More arguments here:

https://www.si.com/nfl/packers/news/starr-not-brady-remains-at-nfl-playoffs-summit

Starr’s numbers in playoff games and championship games are underrated. 

9-1 in playoff games, 15TDs, 3 picks and a 104.8 passer rating which is wild for that era.  Must be noted he should be 8-1 as one game he started he only attempted 1 pass, but still impressive numbers for the era

[MU82]

I love comparing players, even across eras, but IMHO it's impossible to compare Bart Starr with Mahomes and Brady, and even Montana.

But sure, Starr's achievements were very impressive.

[Uncle Rico]

I love comparing players, even across eras, but IMHO it's impossible to compare Bart Starr with Mahomes and Brady, and even Montana.

But sure, Starr's achievements were very impressive.

Compare Starr to the players of his era and where he ranked amongst them and not where he ranks against players of other eras.

[BrewCity83]

If you're trying to anoint Mahomes as the GOAT, that literally means Greatest OF ALL TIME.  You can't call someone the Greatest of All Time without comparing them to the players of all other times. 

[Hards Alumni]

If you're trying to anoint Mahomes as the GOAT, that literally means Greatest OF ALL TIME.  You can't call someone the Greatest of All Time without comparing them to the players of all other times.

True.  If you could pick one QB to lead your team from their prime who would you choose.

I'd choose Patrick Mahomes.

[Jockey]

Yet, football 'geniuses" still bet untold millions of dollars that Mahomes will lose.

Go figure.

[BrewCity83]

It's still a team game.  Mahomes would have likely lost yesterday if the SF kicker could make a 4th quarter extra point, or if the blocker on the SF punt return team doesn't let a punt hit off his foot, or...

[Jockey]

It's still a team game.  Mahomes would have likely lost yesterday if the SF kicker could make a 4th quarter extra point, or if the blocker on the SF punt return team doesn't let a punt hit off his foot, or...

The Packers would have won several more SBs, if...

Ain't the way the game works.

[Uncle Rico]

The Packers would have won several more SBs, if...

Ain't the way the game works.

If they didn’t waste great rosters with choking dog QBs

[BrewCity83]

The point is that it's a team game.  The best QB doesn't always win.

[NCMUFan]

Mahomes is very good at what he does.
The trick is to take away what he does really well and force him to do things he is only so so. 
It came out with the broadcasters on the KC vs Packers game.
And sure enough, that game the Pack was able to take away what Mahomes does best and the Pack happened to win.
He also has a great coach in Andy Reid to put together a high quality offense and defense.

[dgies9156]

Oh Good God, NO!

Greatest QB of all time -- Tom Brady. As much as I hate him, his winning percentage speaks for itself. He's the GOAT clear and simple.

Second Greatest GOAT -- Bart Starr. Yeah, he was my Dad's age and few remember him, but when Coach Lombardi settled on Bart Starr, the Packers started winning. Period. Winning matters.

Others:
  Joe Montana -- Winning matters!
  Terry Bradshaw -- Ditto
  Jordan Love -- Give him a few years and....

[WhiteTrash]

I remember people talking about how Tiger was going to end up with 25 majors in mid 2000's. In 2005 he only needed to average 1 major a year for 15 years to get there. He won 4 in the next three years.  It was a slam dunk. Hands down the greatest golfer ever they said.

I'll accept the argument he is the greatest, but he's #2 to me and many others. Not the slam dunk most were predicting.   

[jesmu84]

Oh Good God, NO!

Greatest QB of all time -- Tom Brady. As much as I hate him, his winning percentage speaks for itself. He's the GOAT clear and simple.

Second Greatest GOAT -- Bart Starr. Yeah, he was my Dad's age and few remember him, but when Coach Lombardi settled on Bart Starr, the Packers started winning. Period. Winning matters.

Others:
  Joe Montana -- Winning matters!
  Terry Bradshaw -- Ditto
  Jordan Love -- Give him a few years and....

Um

You should look at Mahomes individual and team stats before making bold statements

[wadesworld]

Oh Good God, NO!

Greatest QB of all time -- Tom Brady. As much as I hate him, his winning percentage speaks for itself. He's the GOAT clear and simple.

Second Greatest GOAT -- Bart Starr. Yeah, he was my Dad's age and few remember him, but when Coach Lombardi settled on Bart Starr, the Packers started winning. Period. Winning matters.

Others:
  Joe Montana -- Winning matters!
  Terry Bradshaw -- Ditto
  Jordan Love -- Give him a few years and....

Hmm.  Mahomes has a better regular season and Playoff winning percentage than Tom Brady had...

Tough to compete with Jordan Love's .500 career winning percentage though.

[Hards Alumni]

Oh Good God, NO!

Greatest QB of all time -- Tom Brady. As much as I hate him, his winning percentage speaks for itself. He's the GOAT clear and simple.

Second Greatest GOAT -- Bart Starr. Yeah, he was my Dad's age and few remember him, but when Coach Lombardi settled on Bart Starr, the Packers started winning. Period. Winning matters.

Others:
  Joe Montana -- Winning matters!
  Terry Bradshaw -- Ditto
  Jordan Love -- Give him a few years and....

Terry Bradshaw isn't even in the top 10.

[Pakuni]

Hmm.  Mahomes has a better regular season and Playoff winning percentage than Tom Brady had...

Yeah, because Tampa went 8-9 in Brady's age 45 season.
At the same point in their careers, Brady had a better regular season and playoff winning percentage.
And, of course, Brady was 2-0 over Mahomes in the playoffs.

[MuggsyB]

How good was Unitas?

I'd probably slot Mahomes #3 right now.

Brady
Montana
Mahomes
Manning
Marino? 

[MU82]

It's still a team game.  Mahomes would have likely lost yesterday if the SF kicker could make a 4th quarter extra point, or if the blocker on the SF punt return team doesn't let a punt hit off his foot, or...

If Pacheco didn't fumble away a great chance at a TD - and a sure FG - Mahomes would have won in regulation, or if a KC DB didn't hold on third-and-12, or ...

I mean, you can pick out plays all game for fun with "ifs."

At the end of all the ifs by both teams, the best football player in the world delivered the winning pass to complete an outstanding drive. No ifs necessary there.

[Hards Alumni]

How good was Unitas?

I'd probably slot Mahomes #3 right now.

Brady
Montana
Mahomes
Manning
Marino?

Aaron Rodgers is better than Dan Marino.

[swoopem]

Elway over Marino also

[forgetful]

True.  If you could pick one QB to lead your team from their prime who would you choose.

I'd choose Patrick Mahomes.

Peyton Manning, but Mahomes would be a close 2nd.

Other NFL QBs and coaches have commented on how unique and brilliant Manning was, saying not only did he have the elite QB skills, but he knew your defense better than your own DC.

Brady was a great QB, but he did benefit more than the 2 above based on system.

[forgetful]

Aaron Rodgers is better than Dan Marino.

I agree, and what holds Rodgers back from being even higher, is himself. He was too often unwilling to make that risky throw that was needed.

If he had a smidge more gunslinger in him he might be in discussion for the GOAT, as he also really knew the other teams defense like a Manning Jr.

[Pakuni]

In terms of pure passing ability, it's hard to top Marino. He had flaws in his game that keep him out of the GOAT discussion, but no one could sling it like him.

[muwarrior69]

Bart Starr.  Five NFL Championships in seven years. 

More arguments here:

https://www.si.com/nfl/packers/news/starr-not-brady-remains-at-nfl-playoffs-summit

Without question and I am a NY Giants fan. That is when tackle football was football; not the wuss QBs that play today and if you breathe on them the wrong way it is ruffing the QB. I wish they would return the hashmarks closer the sidelines. Horning and Taylor would run the power play right or power play left to perfection and it would also make a field goal kick more interesting.

[MU82]

In terms of pure passing ability, it's hard to top Marino. He had flaws in his game that keep him out of the GOAT discussion, but no one could sling it like him.

In hoops, people use the term "pure point guard" sometimes ... well, in football, Marino was the embodiment of "pure passer." Nobody delivered the ball more quickly, and his arm was as strong as anybody's. He also had an uncanny pocket presence for a QB who was considered immobile; he was hardly ever sacked because he had a way of moving a step or two out of harm's way over and over again.

I was a huge Marino fan when he played, and I'm not sure I've ever seen a better pure passer. But he simply didn't win enough in the postseason to be in any serious GOAT discussion, darn it.

[Hards Alumni]

Aaron was/is better than Marino in every way except personality.

[Lennys Tap]

That Mahomes won it all this season with a bunch of WRs who had Crisco on their hands, and a less-than-full-speed Kelce was truly an amazing accomplishment.

Mahomes is special and this year, given KC’s weakness at WR, was maybe his best. But in the playoffs, KC’s defense was (imo) an even bigger difference maker. If Kelce was less than full speed in said playoffs his numbers certainly didn’t show it.

Right now:
Brady
Montana
Mahomes

When it’s all said and done, Brady and Mahomes will probably be on a level by themselves.

[Pakuni]

Aaron was/is better than Marino in every way except personality.

Well, that settles it then.

[Hards Alumni]

Well, that settles it then.

I was under the impression that is how it works around here.

[MU82]

Mahomes is special and this year, given KC’s weakness at WR, was maybe his best. But in the playoffs, KC’s defense was (imo) an even bigger difference maker. If Kelce was less than full speed in said playoffs his numbers certainly didn’t show it.

Right now:
Brady
Montana
Mahomes

When it’s all said and done, Brady and Mahomes will probably be on a level by themselves.

Though I think I'd rate Mahomes a tiny tad above Montana, lots of good stuff in this post, Lenny. KC's defensive turnaround was impressive - credit to management for bringing in some better players, the players themselves and Spagnuolo.

[Uncle Rico]

Aaron was/is better than Marino in every way except personality.

I wouldn’t be so sure about that last part

[Pakuni]

I wouldn’t be so sure about that last part

Laces out, Dan.