Stages of MU fandom

[tower912]

I feel insulted and hurt that Wisblue is criticizing my opinion.


Nope.  Can't say it with a straight face.

[warriorfred]

I'm pretty sure that when I clicked "yes" on the MUSCOOP Terms of Service many years ago I was explicitly agreeing that everyone (including myself) is an idiot. 

[Newsdreams]

I like being entitled to my own opinion.

You seem very entitled

[warriorfred]

Entitled to my own idiotic opinions, and the enjoyment of other idiotic opinions courtesy of MUSCOOP.

But I honestly enjoy the comments, thoughts, reflections, analysis, and opinions of others.  Occasionally I learn, many times I laugh, and mostly I am grateful.

Thank you.

[rocky_warrior]

I'm pretty sure that when I clicked "yes" on the MUSCOOP Terms of Service many years ago I was explicitly agreeing that everyone (including myself) is an idiot.

Essentially, yes.

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[dgies9156]

One thing I've always wondered about the way Chones' departure happened.
Thoughts?

Here's what I understand about it. Brother Goose probably knows more than anyone, but here's what I've read and seen over the years.

Mr. Chones was an incredible talent. In fact, he probably was the second best player ever to play for Marquette behind DWade. In February 1972, we were undefeated and winning, often convincingly. We were on our way to maybe challenging UCLA for a Natty. Think Indiana in 1976. We were THAT good.

At the same time, the ABA and NBA were engaged in a talent war, just as the NFL and AFL were in the 1960s. The ABA was an upstart basketball league and there wasn't the discipline about recruiting and signing college talent that there is today. At the time, Mr. Chones averaged 20.5 points and 11.9 rebounds per game for Marquette. Mr. Chones was the second early signing ever by professional basketball.

In those days, there was no NIL and players could not have agents. Coach McGuire knew about the offer to Mr. Chones. Coach McGuire and Mr. Chones went to Racine to speak with Mr. Chones' father. There's a lot of urban legend around what was actually said but the consensus  was that Mr. Chones should sign with the ABA. The view was that the ABA/NBA war would soon be settled and the level of incentive for Mr. Chones to turn pro would soon be far less than what was offered. Coach McGuire, to his credit, put the person above the institution, though I suspect Coach Al thought he could win no matter what.

Mr. Chones signed with the ABA the week of February 20, 1972. On Saturday, February 26, 1972, Marquette traveled to Detroit to play what's now known as Detroit Mercy. We were blown out 70-49. We subsequently lost a second road game to New Mexico State in early March and were soundly defeated at one of our favorite places -- the UD Arena -- by Kentucky and Adolph the Bigot. That was the NCAA tournament where Bob Lackey's eligibility was question, largely as a side show for Coach Rupp.

UCLA won the national title that year.

The "bitterness" 52 years later has more to do with what could have been. Had Mr. Chones stayed, we would have wasted Kentucky and wiped the floor with anyone in the region. As it was, Florida State was the national runner-up and they came from the same Mideast Regional we did. UCLA had Sophomore Bill Walton and was undefeated. Had Mr. Chones stayed, most of us believe that we and UCLA both would have been undefeated going into the NCAA Championship.

It would have been a great match-up.

Many of us also believe that had Mr. Chones stayed for four years, Marquette would have been virtually invincible in 1972-1973. We had Larry McNeill, who later signed a pro contract, and a young Maurice Lucas, to go with Allie McGuire, Sugar Frazier and Marcus Washington. Earl Tatum rode the bench that year as a freshman. We were 25-4 that year and could well have been 31-0 and national champions.

To the question of whether Marquette was cheating on recruiting, there's no way of ever knowing. Anyone involved in the recruiting process in the 1960s and 1970s probably is dead and dead men tell no tales. I'm skeptical Marquette did because too many people hated us in those days and the NCAA was crawling up the bowels of the Old Gym! Keep in mind that Marquette was one of a comparatively few high-profile universities that actively recruited, coached up and started African-American ballplayers. This was especially true from Coach McGuire's first season in 1964-1965 through the mid-1970s. UCLA clearly was another and North Carolina ultimately became a third.

[muwarrior69]

Here's what I understand about it. Brother Goose probably knows more than anyone, but here's what I've read and seen over the years.

Mr. Chones was an incredible talent. In fact, he probably was the second best player ever to play for Marquette behind DWade. In February 1972, we were undefeated and winning, often convincingly. We were on our way to maybe challenging UCLA for a Natty. Think Indiana in 1976. We were THAT good.

At the same time, the ABA and NBA were engaged in a talent war, just as the NFL and AFL were in the 1960s. The ABA was an upstart basketball league and there wasn't the discipline about recruiting and signing college talent that there is today. At the time, Mr. Chones averaged 20.5 points and 11.9 rebounds per game for Marquette. Mr. Chones was the second early signing ever by professional basketball.

In those days, there was no NIL and players could not have agents. Coach McGuire knew about the offer to Mr. Chones. Coach McGuire and Mr. Chones went to Racine to speak with Mr. Chones' father. There's a lot of urban legend around what was actually said but the consensus  was that Mr. Chones should sign with the ABA. The view was that the ABA/NBA war would soon be settled and the level of incentive for Mr. Chones to turn pro would soon be far less than what was offered. Coach McGuire, to his credit, put the person above the institution, though I suspect Coach Al thought he could win no matter what.

Mr. Chones signed with the ABA the week of February 20, 1972. On Saturday, February 26, 1972, Marquette traveled to Detroit to play what's now known as Detroit Mercy. We were blown out 70-49. We subsequently lost a second road game to New Mexico State in early March and were soundly defeated at one of our favorite places -- the UD Arena -- by Kentucky and Adolph the Bigot. That was the NCAA tournament where Bob Lackey's eligibility was question, largely as a side show for Coach Rupp.

UCLA won the national title that year.

The "bitterness" 52 years later has more to do with what could have been. Had Mr. Chones stayed, we would have wasted Kentucky and wiped the floor with anyone in the region. As it was, Florida State was the national runner-up and they came from the same Mideast Regional we did. UCLA had Sophomore Bill Walton and was undefeated. Had Mr. Chones stayed, most of us believe that we and UCLA both would have been undefeated going into the NCAA Championship.

It would have been a great match-up.

Many of us also believe that had Mr. Chones stayed for four years, Marquette would have been virtually invincible in 1972-1973. We had Larry McNeill, who later signed a pro contract, and a young Maurice Lucas, to go with Allie McGuire, Sugar Frazier and Marcus Washington. Earl Tatum rode the bench that year as a freshman. We were 25-4 that year and could well have been 31-0 and national champions.

To the question of whether Marquette was cheating on recruiting, there's no way of ever knowing. Anyone involved in the recruiting process in the 1960s and 1970s probably is dead and dead men tell no tales. I'm skeptical Marquette did because too many people hated us in those days and the NCAA was crawling up the bowels of the Old Gym! Keep in mind that Marquette was one of a comparatively few high-profile universities that actively recruited, coached up and started African-American ballplayers. This was especially true from Coach McGuire's first season in 1964-1965 through the mid-1970s. UCLA clearly was another and North Carolina ultimately became a third.

Don't forget UTEP in '66.

[dgies9156]

Don't forget UTEP in '66.

UTEP was a one-year fluke and was not able to sustain the level of excellence we did from 1967 until 1980.

Yes, what UTEP did in 1966 was one for the books, as was what Loyola of Chicago did in 1963. But it's important to note that among consistent blue bloods of the day, Marquette and UCLA usually won with African-American athletes. African-American basketball players were truly welcomed by both programs and both schools started the five best players available without regard to skin color.

And they won!!!!

[wisblue]

I feel insulted and hurt that Wisblue is criticizing my opinion.


Nope.  Can't say it with a straight face.

I don't expect you to be insulted or hurt.

Just expressing my opinion about your style when you choose to deviate from opinions about basketball and instead criticize and ridicule how others express themselves.

[muwarrior69]

UTEP was a one-year fluke and was not able to sustain the level of excellence we did from 1967 until 1980.

Yes, what UTEP did in 1966 was one for the books, as was what Loyola of Chicago did in 1963. But it's important to note that among consistent blue bloods of the day, Marquette and UCLA usually won with African-American athletes. African-American basketball players were truly welcomed by both programs and both schools started the five best players available without regard to skin color.

And they won!!!!

Marquette was no Blue Blood back in '66 nor was UCLA with NCAA titles in 64 and 65. UK had won 4 titles but no black players. San Francisco won 2 titles, the first with 3 black starters. Cincinnati also won 2 with black players prior to '66. I am not sure what a Blue Blood is prior to 1966. As for winning, yes UCLA dominated the sport from '64 through '75. Few other schools were winning, but had black players with the exception of some schools in the deep south. UTEP set the tone when it came to race in college ball and won a NC. I guess others could say Marquette is a fluke as well as we only have one NC as well.

[tower912]

1.  During recruiting.   Gottahavehimohmygod.
2.  Signing day.   He could start as a freshman
3.  When actually a freshman.   He sucks.  Waste of a scholarship.   Better recruit over him.
4.  Sophomore year.   Not a star yet.   Hit the transfer portal to recruit over him
5.  Junior year.  He is starting to impress me.  Underappreciated.  Can't wait until next year.
6.  Senior year.   OMG, how will we replace him?  Next year will be a disaster.   This is all the coach's fault.

5 years later.   A legend.   MU needs to recruit more players like him.

Bump

[Its DJOver]

Had a similar one that I went and dug up.  Remember when we were gushing over Freshman Sy?

1.) Freshman comes in with little to no expectations.
2.) Freshman shows flashes in limited minutes while not even appearing on oppositions scouting report.
3.) Board falls in love with Freshman. (We are here)
4.) Expectations get raised for the now/soon-to-be Sophomore
5.) Player doesn't develop at the pace that many want, partially because of raised expectations, partially because of appearance on scouting report.
6.) Board falls out of love with player.
7/1.) New Freshman comes in with little to no expectation.

Probably more applicable in the Tre and Nigel discussion, but still relevant.

[tower912]

So, to borrow from Loverboy ....Same old story, some things never change.....