The Future of Cities

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Because of the black on black crime.

Also poop on the sidewalks and a sea of used needles. Just ask anyone gullible dentist.

[4everwarriors]

Datz watt happens wen citizens (can ya say citizens here) keep votin' in da same kind of politicians, aina?

[PorkysButthole]

From today's WSJ:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/progressive-cities-population-decline-census-bureau-chicago-new-york-san-francisco-e803562c

[Pakuni]

From today's WSJ:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/progressive-cities-population-decline-census-bureau-chicago-new-york-san-francisco-e803562c

Just to be clear, this is from the WSJ Opinion Page, not the news department.
One is a group of highly respected professionals doing some of the best work in journalism today. The other is clown car of partisan hacks.
Needless to say, the former despises the latter.

[dgies9156]

Hope you're not getting your Brandon Johnson info from Fox "News."

No, I'm not.

As a reasonably educated (MU grad) person, I tend to read the Wall Street Journal, Chicago Tribune, Apple's news digest and the JSOnline almost every day. Because I stream, I also get all four network Chicago television stations every night (the Lovely Allison 10 Minute Digest, aka NBC5's nightly news digest, spares me the angst of watching the whole newscast, 12.5 minutes of crime and public safety news with the lovely Natalie up to her ankles in victim's blood).

There's enough goofiness going on in Chicago (AKA Defund the Police, reparations, ridiculous pension obligations with no way to pay them, problem teachers etc.) that Fox News doesn't need to tilt it one way or the other. Just play the story straight down the middle!

As to the WSJ editorial, What's wrong about it? What fact was misstated? What part of the editorial bleeds "partisan hack?" Where's the Clown Car?

Inquiring minds want to know!

[Pakuni]

No, I'm not.

As a reasonably educated (MU grad) person, I tend to read the Wall Street Journal, Chicago Tribune, Apple's news digest and the JSOnline almost every day. Because I stream, I also get all four network Chicago television stations every night (the Lovely Allison 10 Minute Digest, aka NBC5's nightly news digest, spares me the angst of watching the whole newscast, 12.5 minutes of crime and public safety news with the lovely Natalie up to her ankles in victim's blood).

There's enough goofiness going on in Chicago (AKA Defund the Police, reparations, ridiculous pension obligations with no way to pay them, problem teachers etc.) that Fox News doesn't need to tilt it one way or the other. Just play the story straight down the middle!

Could you please provide some evidence that the Chicago Police Department has been or is being defunded? Or that reparations are being paid or planned?
Honestly, Brother dgies, you hurt your credibility when you post right-wing talking points that lack basis in reality?
Pensions? Teachers? Are these somehow problems unique to Chicago? Are there no problem teachers in Dallas? Or Mobile? Or Las Cruces?
Are there not other states with underfunded pension obligations - in some instances, worse than Illinois?

One more thing about schools ... Chicago Public Schools have improved massively over the past decade. You're living in the 90s, my friend.

https://cepa.stanford.edu/news/new-analysis-leading-education-expert-cps-students-are-learning-and-growing-faster-96-students-united-states

As to the WSJ editorial, What's wrong about it? What fact was misstated? What part of the editorial bleeds "partisan hack?" Where's the Clown Car?

Sorry, but I'm not paying to read an opinion piece from an editorial page that has, in recent years given us:
- the argument that Silicon Valley Bank collapsed because it has a Black person on its board of directors.
- declared that reports of a 10-year-old rape victim who had to leave her home state for an abortion were a hoax (they weren't)
- published - and then defended - election conspiracies they knew at the time were false
- published a false piece claiming that Joe Biden had cut and profited from a deal with a Chinese energy company. Who proved this false? The Wall Street Journal newsroom.
- published a piece claiming there would be no second wave of COVID (there was, and it was worse).
Is that Clown Car enough for you, or should I cite more examples?
If that's what you think is great journalism, so be it. I choose to spend my money elsewhere.

[dgies9156]

One more thing about schools ... Chicago Public Schools have improved massively over the past decade. You're living in the 90s, my friend.

17 percent of African American High School Juniors are performing at grade level math and 11 percent of Hispanic students performing at 11th grade level match.

If you're rich or politically connected or gifted and can gain admission to a Magnet School, maybe. But CPS is a joke despite spending twice as much per pupil as the average for Illinois.

[Pakuni]

17 percent of African American High School Juniors are performing at grade level math and 11 percent of Hispanic students performing at 11th grade level match.

How does this compare with large, urban school districts elsewhere?
Heck, how does it compare with small, rural districts? Districts in middle-class suburbs
Context, please.

But CPS is a joke despite spending twice as much per pupil as the average for Illinois.

Where do you get this figure?
According to Illinois State Board of Education data, CPS spent $17,107 per pupil in the 2021-22 school year. The state average was $16,029.
Links provided.

https://www.illinoisreportcard.com/district.aspx?source=profile&Districtid=15016299025
https://www.illinoisreportcard.com/State.aspx?source=environment&source2=perstudentspending&Stateid=IL

Of course, no serious person would try an apples-to-apples cost comparison between Chicago and, say, Shelbyville or Dixon, would they?

And while you're at it, what about that police defunding and reparations you were talking about?

[dgies9156]

How does this compare with large, urban school districts elsewhere?
Heck, how does it compare with small, rural districts? Districts in middle-class suburbs
Context, please.

Where do you get this figure?
According to Illinois State Board of Education data, CPS spent $17,107 per pupil in the 2021-22 school year. The state average was $16,029.
Links provided.

https://www.illinoisreportcard.com/district.aspx?source=profile&Districtid=15016299025
https://www.illinoisreportcard.com/State.aspx?source=environment&source2=perstudentspending&Stateid=IL

Of course, no serious person would try an apples-to-apples cost comparison between Chicago and, say, Shelbyville or Dixon, would they?

And while you're at it, what about that police defunding and reparations you were talking about?

OK, Chicago's wonderful. All is well.

It's because of the Progressive Leadership of Brandon Johnson, Lori Lightfoot, Mike Madigan, the Eddies, JB Pritzker and the honest as the day is long Chicago City Council that everything in Chicago is wonderful. The schools are turning out Rhodes Scholars and the graduation rate is 99.25 percent because of enlighten educational policies and hard work of America's finest educators -- the CTU!. Chicago has the most college graduates of any big city in America because of the CTU. Everyone is going to and graduating college causing industry and commerce to beg for new sites to make investment, create jobs and spread wealth across the state.

Suburban Superintendents in Illinois are flocking to Chicago to study the CTU's methods to apply them in such substandard districts as New Trier, Glenbrook, Stevenson, Naperville, Hinsdale and Highland Park.

Citadel just announced it made a huge mistake moving to Miami. Yeah, they said, the weather is nice, but who needs nice weather when you can have enlightened government like they've had for more than a century in Illinois. Ken Griffin said last week when he announced, "just kidding" that "that goofy Ron DeSantis -- cripe, what's he going to get the Florida legislature to do to me? Make me alligator food because I don't like Cubano sandwiches? I'll take JB anytime!"

Oh, and the ads that the City of Chicago placed in the Dallas Morning News urging business to flee a low-tax, low regulation state like Texas for Illinois because Illinois offers reproductive freedom appear to be paying off. I guess I missed the announcement that Toyota is closing their New Braunfels, Texas assembly plant for a new site on the West Side of Chicago. Even Caterpillar is moving back to Illinois because, for some strange reason, nobody wants to live in Dallas.

Those 1,000 police jobs that aren't and can't be filled, that's just a made-up fiction from Fox News. Natalie Martinez from Channel 5 stands on the west and south side almost every night not in a pool of blood but in a pool of milk and honey flowing down from above, where it covers the streets paved in gold. The residents of the City of Chicago all gave up their guns and bullets -- voluntarily no less -- because the allegations of crime in Chicago are yet another fiction created by Fox News. There's no crime in Chicago and all this hubhub about carjackings, murder, assault and rape -- eeeh, jealous conservatives!

In fact, at the next City Council meeting, Aldermen are expected to pass a resolution blaming Fox News for being a Nattering Nabob of Negativity and requiring cable operators, many of whom are regulated by the City of Chicago, to drop Fox News in favor of a new network -- Good News Tonight, where anchor Allison Rosati kisses babies, lauds the wonder of prairie living and talks about her 15-year-old dog.

Look, I lived in Illinois for 44 years, 40 of which were in Metropolitan Chicago. I have a graduate degree from Loyola and my wife and I were active both in our suburb and in the city itself. I still love the region and, living in Florida, I truly miss it. Chicago and Illinois should be driving the regional and national economy with their access to water and natural resources, transportation lines, educated workforce, great universities and agricultural leadership. It's one of the few places where we could have grown both as people and as professionals as we did.

But the opportunity my wife and I had beginning in the 1980s is fleeing. You and I can argue until the cows come home as to why but the industry and commerce that should be coming to my long-time home of Chicago is instead going to places like my earlier hometown, Nashville. And Brother MU's hometown of Charlotte. Even companies that invested on the west side 10 years ago are rethinking their investment. Yeah, remote work is causing part of that, but so too is Chicago's problems that too many just simply refuse to acknowledge. 

[Pakuni]

So, rather than defend your questionable claims or answer my questions, you offer snark and straw men.
Literally nobody here has suggested Chicago is without its problems, often serious problems. Nobody here has sung the praises of Lori Lightfoot or JB Pritzker or Mike Madigan. Nobody here has praised the CTU.
Some are just tired of the often-exaggerated - and just as often false - narratives pushed by people like you, Heisey and your friends at Fox News. And it's an agenda not driven by any actual concern for Chicago or its citizens or any desire to make things better, but by a boring political agenda (among other agendas).

There's tons of room for serious, genuine discussion about problems in Chicago and other American cities, and how they can best be addressed. You're not here for that.
As Logan Roy said, "You are not serious people."

[JWags85]

You can disagree with him politically or think his arguments are flawed/disingenuous use of statistics, but I don't think its at all fair to frame Dgies as someone who doesn't care about Chicago or only talks about its ills to push a political agenda.  He's got a litany of posts to disprove that.  Thats just unnecessarily broad brushing someone in the opposite political camp, just like automatically bucketing someone right of the aisle as a Fox News enthusiast.

We can all agree that Dgies is just a distasteful and misguided pretty boy, not because of anything in that post, but because he fervently supports the Cardinals.

[MU82]

You can disagree with him politically or think his arguments are flawed/disingenuous use of statistics, but I don't think its at all fair to frame Dgies as someone who doesn't care about Chicago or only talks about its ills to push a political agenda.  He's got a litany of posts to disprove that.  Thats just unnecessarily broad brushing someone in the opposite political camp, just like automatically bucketing someone right of the aisle as a Fox News enthusiast.

You're right about dgies being better than that, Wags. We often find a lot of insight in his comments. That's why it was disappointing that all he did was spout misleading and/or inaccurate talking points from the usual suspects.

[Pakuni]

You can disagree with him politically or think his arguments are flawed/disingenuous use of statistics, but I don't think its at all fair to frame Dgies as someone who doesn't care about Chicago or only talks about its ills to push a political agenda.  He's got a litany of posts to disprove that.  Thats just unnecessarily broad brushing someone in the opposite political camp, just like automatically bucketing someone right of the aisle as a Fox News enthusiast.

We can all agree that Dgies is just a distasteful and misguided pretty boy, not because of anything in that post, but because he fervently supports the Cardinals.

Wags,

Dgies has brought a ton of interesting and insightful comments here over the years and I'm sure I've learned from him.
But not when it comes to the topic of Chicago. On that, he trades in all the usual tropes and talking points, regardless of whether they're actually, you know, true. It wasn't so long ago that in this very thread he argued that Chicago teachers don't actually care about students. Does that sound reasonable?
He's also made inaccurate statements about school spending, police funding and reparations.  He's overstated the  corporate losses (ICaterpillar taking 240 jobs from Deerfield apparently is awful for Chicago) yet never mentions the gains (Chicago added 441 relocations and expansions in 2021, the most in the nation). Does this sound evenhanded?

Dgies is a great poster and probably a great guy, but on this particular topic he seems most interested in pushing a narrative.

[rocket surgeon]

san francisco, chicago, seattle, portland used to be really neat cities.  i miss chicago and san fran especially.  won't be going back very soon.  not worth the risk considering the costs...too bad

[Uncle Rico]

san francisco, chicago, seattle, portland used to be really neat cities.  i miss chicago and san fran especially.  won't be going back very soon.  not worth the risk considering the costs...too bad

I’m sure the population is devastated by this development

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

san francisco, chicago, seattle, portland used to be really neat cities.  i miss chicago and san fran especially.  won't be going back very soon.  not worth the risk considering the costs...too bad

I was in San Francisco last month and it was fantastic as usual. Will be in Chicago in a couple of weeks and am expecting the same.

Too bad you allow your fears to be manipulated and you miss out on good times. 

[dgies9156]

You can disagree with him politically or think his arguments are flawed/disingenuous use of statistics, but I don't think its at all fair to frame Dgies as someone who doesn't care about Chicago or only talks about its ills to push a political agenda.  He's got a litany of posts to disprove that.  Thats just unnecessarily broad brushing someone in the opposite political camp, just like automatically bucketing someone right of the aisle as a Fox News enthusiast.

We can all agree that Dgies is just a distasteful and misguided pretty boy, not because of anything in that post, but because he fervently supports the Cardinals.

Brother Wags:

Thank you, especially the pretty boy part! When you get to be my age and someone calls you a pretty boy, you head gets big! LOL!!!!!!

Given the choice of being derided for my politics or choice of baseball team, the well educated clearly knows that my choice of baseball fandom is far more rooted in factual success than just about anything this side of my Marquette support!

Being a Cardinals fan isn't a liability. It's a joy that few Cubs fans will ever experience! 

[JWags85]

I was in San Francisco last month and it was fantastic as usual. Will be in Chicago in a couple of weeks and am expecting the same.

Too bad you allow your fears to be manipulated and you miss out on good times.

I can maybe understand coastal or Southern people that have never been who have this wild vision of Chicago as mid-80s Beirut, but for Midwesterners with any familiarity with Chicago, I don't know how this continues to take hold, regardless of your news source.

Yes, there are terrible parts of the city and they continue to get worse.  And yes, I would even be willing to grant someone that the spread is a bit further into random incidents in "nicer" areas than 10-15 years ago.  But the idea that there is any meaningful inherent "risk" in going to Chicago for anything as a visitor is just absolutely preposterous.

[dgies9156]

I can maybe understand coastal or Southern people that have never been who have this wild vision of Chicago as mid-80s Beirut, but for Midwesterners with any familiarity with Chicago, I don't know how this continues to take hold, regardless of your news source.

Yes, there are terrible parts of the city and they continue to get worse.  And yes, I would even be willing to grant someone that the spread is a bit further into random incidents in "nicer" areas than 10-15 years ago.  But the idea that there is any meaningful inherent "risk" in going to Chicago for anything as a visitor is just absolutely preposterous.

First off, I'll be living in Lincoln Park from July through September. It's my annual "back home extravaganza."

Second, there's a huge difference between visiting a city and living there. Visiting a city usually means spending time in its more elegant places, staying in hotels that usually are cleaned daily and eating in very nice, locally notable restaurants. If you do something, it's going to be cultural, social or athletic events that represent the best of a city.

Living in a city means putting up with everything from 10 mile back-ups on the Kennedy into town (30 mile back-ups if you're on the 405 outside Los Angeles), homelessness, social problems, crime, taxes, schools and everything else a visitor doesn't think of. It's means taking ownership of it if you're invested in a city. Sometimes, these worlds intersect. Mostly, they don't.

Frankly, if you're afraid of Chicago, you've watched too much TV news!

I'll admit journalists love crime stories. Scaring people is an innate characteristic of newspapers and there's no better way to do it than write a greasy crime story.

But another problem is people popping off, on both sides. The Bud Light thing is one example. Either you like the beer or you don't. But that doesn't change because they sent a can with a transgendered person's face on it to that person. Likewise, I get that millions of folks don't like what our governor down here has done. But to suggest Florida is hostile to black folks is just, well, not the truth. Floridians see only one color when it comes to our millions of visitors -- green! And, I don't mean Martians!

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I can maybe understand coastal or Southern people that have never been who have this wild vision of Chicago as mid-80s Beirut, but for Midwesterners with any familiarity with Chicago, I don't know how this continues to take hold, regardless of your news source.

You are underestimating the power of propaganda, particularly long-term relentless repetition.

Sprocket has heard literally hundreds of times that San Francisco and Portland are burning HellZones. He is no longer open to learning otherwise nor would he even believe his own eyes if they contradicted the dross he has willingly, gratefully swallowed.

[Goose]

Sultan,

Addressing Sultan because of his post on recent visit to SF, but really meant for everyone.

One of my best friends is 75y gay, very liberal man that has lived in SF for 25 years and has always defended the city and all of it's glory. He lives in a condo downtown, does not own a car and lives life everyday throughout the city and surrounding area and is a sound, sane voice in my life. That said, over the past two years he has routinely told me about the decline in SF, from homeless people, crime and quality of life. He actually is saddened about what SF his become and considering a possible move overseas.

My daughter who is 27y and very liberal lives in Portland and has for the past several years and loves that part of the country. While she is less gloom than my SF friend, she definitely has stated her concern about the city of Portland. She lives in area similar to Brady St. or Bay View in MKE and has had multiple bikes stolen as well as her car. She is far from an alarmist and says her level of comfort and safety has changed since she moved there.

I state both of these examples because they come from people I love and respect and have 1000% different take on many topics, especially politics, crime, safety and certain social issues. Both have surprised me because of their candid comments on their cities. Three years ago, I tried to get in disagreements over the greatness of both places and they both should have been hired for the tourism commission in their cities and now I am hearing similar words from them.

To sum it up, I think dgies is spot on with two of comments, visiting vs. living in a city and green. My SF is upset that is condo has lost value, even though he paid $250k for it 25y ago and it is still worth $1.2m and my daughter struggles to find affordable rent in a safe area. I think the only way you can truly know a city is by living there and then can make a fair judgement.

[Plaque Lives Matter!]

You are underestimating the power of propaganda, particularly long-term relentless repetition.

Sprocket has heard literally hundreds of times that San Francisco and Portland are burning HellZones. He is no longer open to learning otherwise nor would he even believe his own eyes if they contradicted the dross he has willingly, gratefully swallowed.

I work in downtown Portland and it has its problems no one seemingly wants to deal with (theft, drugs, etc which is common across our entire country), but last week I went on a nice beautiful 3 mile walk across  the city, encountering zero trouble. However, I do take the time to snap a picture of the skyline from my desk on nice days and crudely draw flames on the buildings to send to my relatives who text me worried about antifa. Some were legitimately worried to come to my wedding over that.

[MU82]

First off, I'll be living in Lincoln Park from July through September. It's my annual "back home extravaganza."

Second, there's a huge difference between visiting a city and living there. Visiting a city usually means spending time in its more elegant places, staying in hotels that usually are cleaned daily and eating in very nice, locally notable restaurants. If you do something, it's going to be cultural, social or athletic events that represent the best of a city.

Living in a city means putting up with everything from 10 mile back-ups on the Kennedy into town (30 mile back-ups if you're on the 405 outside Los Angeles), homelessness, social problems, crime, taxes, schools and everything else a visitor doesn't think of. It's means taking ownership of it if you're invested in a city. Sometimes, these worlds intersect. Mostly, they don't.

Frankly, if you're afraid of Chicago, you've watched too much TV news!

Cool. But this -- especially your last line -- seems to run counter to your earlier posts.

Have a great time in LP. I'll be surprised if you don't.

[Goose]

ZaLin

I have been to Portland many times, mostly years ago because Nike was a big customer of ours in the 1990's and loved it. I have no problem with my daughter living there, especially because is a very active outdoors person and runs, hikes and skis all over the area. I was just somewhat surprised her change of heart about Portland. Granted, she is not looking to move away, and her SUV being stolen when she unloaded her skiing gear has influenced her to some degree. That said, she definitely has a slightly different opinion today vs. three years ago.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Sultan,

Addressing Sultan because of his post on recent visit to SF, but really meant for everyone.

One of my best friends is 75y gay, very liberal man that has lived in SF for 25 years and has always defended the city and all of it's glory. He lives in a condo downtown, does not own a car and lives life everyday throughout the city and surrounding area and is a sound, sane voice in my life. That said, over the past two years he has routinely told me about the decline in SF, from homeless people, crime and quality of life. He actually is saddened about what SF his become and considering a possible move overseas.

My daughter who is 27y and very liberal lives in Portland and has for the past several years and loves that part of the country. While she is less gloom than my SF friend, she definitely has stated her concern about the city of Portland. She lives in area similar to Brady St. or Bay View in MKE and has had multiple bikes stolen as well as her car. She is far from an alarmist and says her level of comfort and safety has changed since she moved there.

I state both of these examples because they come from people I love and respect and have 1000% different take on many topics, especially politics, crime, safety and certain social issues. Both have surprised me because of their candid comments on their cities. Three years ago, I tried to get in disagreements over the greatness of both places and they both should have been hired for the tourism commission in their cities and now I am hearing similar words from them.

To sum it up, I think dgies is spot on with two of comments, visiting vs. living in a city and green. My SF is upset that is condo has lost value, even though he paid $250k for it 25y ago and it is still worth $1.2m and my daughter struggles to find affordable rent in a safe area. I think the only way you can truly know a city is by living there and then can make a fair judgement.

Oh I agree with you completely. I was responding specifically to rocket saying its not work the risk to even VISIT Chicago or San Francisco.  I am also not saying that crime isn't a problem - its ebbs and flows constantly in cities.

In the end I doubt I will be living in either one though.