EV's

[MU82]

I hope to be the last person on the planet with a V8 car.
Or two.
Hybrids are a nice idea but the benefits are largely offset by the extra fuel burn required because of the increased horsepower needed due to the extra weight and lower efficiency of the electrical system vs. traditional drivetrain. 
Battery EV's are a fad.  The power density of a battery vs. gasoline will never allow it to be successful for the long term.

You also should consider "watering" your garden with gasoline. Despite what some so-called experts might say, gas - especially premium leaded if you can still find it - is actually better for plants.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I thought Brawndo was what plants crave?

[MU82]

From Seeking Alpha's "Wall Street Breakfast" newsletter:

It looks like the electric vehicle euphoria is losing steam, as automakers scale back EV plans and slash prices to compete in the saturated market. Sparked by a Wells Fargo call that turned bearish, Tesla (TSLA) slid 4.5% on Wednesday, making it the S&P 500's (SP500) worst performing stock in 2024. "After years of peak spending on EVs and autonomous vehicles, auto manufacturers are pivoting to capital efficiency and return," Morgan Stanley added, noting that makers of gas-powered cars are poised to deliver shareholder gains. Elsewhere, troubled EV maker Fisker (FSR) is planning to file for bankruptcy, just weeks after issuing a "going concern" warning.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Yeah the infrastructure just isn't there. Not sure it ever will be.

[tower912]

It will be.   Battery technology and charging technology are only going to improve.   Combine the claimed Toyota battery breakthrough (500-700 miles) with improved high speed charging (500 miles in 15 minutes, yes please) and some of these larger gas stations putting in a block of chargers rather than pumps (solar supported/augmented?).    All of these things are possible in the next 10 years.   

Of course it is muddy right now.   What isn't?

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

It will be.   Battery technology and charging technology are only going to improve.   Combine the claimed Toyota battery breakthrough (500-700 miles) with improved high speed charging (500 miles in 15 minutes, yes please) and some of these larger gas stations putting in a block of chargers rather than pumps (solar supported/augmented?).    All of these things are possible in the next 10 years.   

Of course it is muddy right now.   What isn't?

This exactly. 
I've been reading of others with independent but similar breakthrough's like Toyota. 

What came after the Model T?

[jesmu84]

Yeah the infrastructure just isn't there. Not sure it ever will be.

I can't disagree more.

The only scenarios where public charging infrastructure matters:

1. You commute more than 200mi/Day
2. You regularly road trip
3. You can't install a home charger

[jesmu84]

From Seeking Alpha's "Wall Street Breakfast" newsletter:

It looks like the electric vehicle euphoria is losing steam, as automakers scale back EV plans and slash prices to compete in the saturated market. Sparked by a Wells Fargo call that turned bearish, Tesla (TSLA) slid 4.5% on Wednesday, making it the S&P 500's (SP500) worst performing stock in 2024. "After years of peak spending on EVs and autonomous vehicles, auto manufacturers are pivoting to capital efficiency and return," Morgan Stanley added, noting that makers of gas-powered cars are poised to deliver shareholder gains. Elsewhere, troubled EV maker Fisker (FSR) is planning to file for bankruptcy, just weeks after issuing a "going concern" warning.

EVs continue to sell at record numbers.

I suggest you look at the consumer numbers.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I can't disagree more.

The only scenarios where public charging infrastructure matters:

1. You commute more than 200mi/Day
2. You regularly road trip
3. You can't install a home charger

I probably overstated with my "not sure it ever will be" comment, but I think #2 on your list is a big problem.  I would have no problem with an EV if I only used it locally or to commute, but I would say that I take a road trip of 200+ roundtrip miles pretty regularly. I don't think I'm alone in that regard.

[dgies9156]

According to the article, it's not EVs that are the problem. Power needed for AI data centers, bitcoin miners, and other industrial power seems to be the main users.

Vast swaths of the United States are at risk of running short of power as electricity-hungry data centers and clean-technology factories proliferate around the country, leaving utilities and regulators grasping for credible plans to expand the nation’s creaking power grid.

In Georgia, demand for industrial power is surging to record highs, with the projection of electricity use for the next decade now 17 times what it was only recently. Arizona Public Service, the largest utility in that state, is also struggling to keep up, projecting it will be out of transmission capacity before the end of the decade absent major upgrades.

Northern Virginia needs the equivalent of several large nuclear power plants to serve all the new data centers planned and under construction. Texas, where electricity shortages are already routine on hot summer days, faces the same dilemma.

The soaring demand is touching off a scramble to try to squeeze more juice out of an aging power grid while pushing commercial customers to go to extraordinary lengths to lock down energy sources, such as building their own power plants.

“When you look at the numbers, it is staggering,” said Jason Shaw, chairman of the Georgia Public Service Commission, which regulates electricity. “It makes you scratch your head and wonder how we ended up in this situation. How were the projections that far off? This has created a challenge like we have never seen before.”

A major factor behind the skyrocketing demand is the rapid innovation in artificial intelligence, which is driving the construction of large warehouses of computing infrastructure that require exponentially more power than traditional data centers. AI is also part of a huge scale-up of cloud computing. Tech firms like Amazon, Apple, Google, Meta and Microsoft are scouring the nation for sites for new data centers, and many lesser-known firms are also on the hunt.

The proliferation of crypto-mining, in which currencies like bitcoin are transacted and minted, is also driving data center growth. It is all putting new pressures on an overtaxed grid — the network of transmission lines and power stations that move electricity around the country. Bottlenecks are mounting, leaving both new generators of energy, particularly clean energy, and large consumers facing growing wait times for hookups.

Brother MU:

It's not about who's causing the load issues, it's the fact they exist. I don't disagree with the notion that server farms and high-technology are major factors but I question what happens when you put 150 million to 200 million electric vehicles on the electrical grid what's going to happen.

Already, there's questions across the country about where high voltage power lines go and whether new lines can be built. In Wisconsin, for example, a distributor wanted to run a line through the Northwoods from near Superior to Weston, near Wausau to move excess electricity into the lower Midwest. The fight to stop that thing was enormous, though it finally was approved. And technological improvement notwithstanding, we're going to need thousands of new transformers, upgraded delivery systems and more high voltage power lines to distribute the incremental electricity to a electric vehicle owner's home and place of business.

Can you imagine Bucky's with 300 rapid chargers? They'd need their own nuclear power plant in the back yard!!!!

Then there's the issue of the power itself. With technological upgrades, electric cars, ranges, home heating and water heaters, among other things, where's the power coming from? I keep hearing on these boards that efficiency will create surplus power for electric vehicles. Frank Borman heard the same line over and over from the IAM at Eastern Airlines about their "efficiency" paying for their large contract increases. Borman got sacked, Eastern was acquired by Frank Lorenzo and the IAM members largely lost their jobs.

Efficiency will help. But how we're getting there is ridiculous. In my case, I have an "energy efficient" dishwasher. Unless I override the base settings, the dishwasher washes in cool water, takes twice as long and my dishes all but need to be washed before they go into the dishwasher. What's the point?

We will need lots of power plants. We have a long way to get there, but if we want to attain California's and the national goals, we're already late to the party! And, how are we going to pay for all this upgrading? The electric customers' rate base?????

[Hards Alumni]

You made these same points a couple of weeks back and people spent time responding. 

[Plaque Lives Matter!]

Can you imagine Bucky's with 300 rapid chargers? They'd need their own nuclear power plant in the back yard!!!!

I don't think you understand the scale of power usage.

[WellsstreetWanderer]

Y'all putting the car before the infrastructure.  here in Cal we have Brown Outs in the summer when heat waves hit and the system can't deliver enough for the A/C.   Need more power production and the means to deliver it. I get your enthusiasm for EV but a lot has to be worked out for them to be ubiquitous. IMHO

[Hards Alumni]

Y'all putting the car before the infrastructure.  here in Cal we have Brown Outs in the summer when heat waves hit and the system can't deliver enough for the A/C.   Need more power production and the means to deliver it. I get your enthusiasm for EV but a lot has to be worked out for them to be ubiquitous. IMHO

The best (and cheapest) time to charge your car is at night when the power is plentiful and cheaper. 

You haven't thought this through.

[Plaque Lives Matter!]

Y'all putting the car before the infrastructure.  here in Cal we have Brown Outs in the summer when heat waves hit and the system can't deliver enough for the A/C.   Need more power production and the means to deliver it. I get your enthusiasm for EV but a lot has to be worked out for them to be ubiquitous. IMHO

Open a window like we did back in the 50s. The temp is no hotter than it was then right?

[WellsstreetWanderer]

Here in Cal our evening power comes from neighboring states and is more expensive. We sell our excess less expensive green energy to them during daylight hours . You are probably correct about 49 states 

[Hards Alumni]

Here in Cal our evening power comes from neighboring states and is more expensive. We sell our excess less expensive green energy to them during daylight hours . You are probably correct about 49 states

Ha, well I'll be damned.  Learn something new every day.

But, there is still power available.

[lawdog77]

I can't disagree more.

The only scenarios where public charging infrastructure matters:

1. You commute more than 200mi/Day
2. You regularly road trip
3. You can't install a home charger

35% of America lives in apartments

[Spotcheck Billy]

35% of America lives in apartments

perhaps that will become an amenity, years ago I got a week vacation for signing a 1 year lease because of competition for renters

[tower912]

Not sure if this belongs here or in the economy thread, but they continue to move toward reopening the Palisades nuclear plant in SW Michigan and perhaps, long term, expand its capabilities using modern technologies.

[jesmu84]

Not sure if this belongs here or in the economy thread, but they continue to move toward reopening the Palisades nuclear plant in SW Michigan and perhaps, long term, expand its capabilities using modern technologies.

Good. We need more nuclear around the country

[rocket surgeon]

GO NUCLEAR

  been invested in cameco, Dennison and ur-energy inc for years and the chickens are coming home

[Plaque Lives Matter!]

Good. We need more nuclear around the country

Great to hear. The massive wind and solar scale up will not be able to handle the growth of demand by itself.

[rocky_warrior]

Buy a Fisker Ocean for $25k....and hope it never breaks...

[mu_hilltopper]

Buy a Fisker Ocean for $25k....and hope it never breaks...

A friend of mine bought one two months ago .. yikes.