EV's

[GOO]

I continue to be surprised by the general thoughts on perceived ev issues. It is a valued learning experience coming here for me. I’m not on any other social media so it’s good to get others views, accurate or not. EV’s are not really a topic of discussion in my life except for here. I work 6 or 7 days a week and have a family life, so little off the cuff interaction with others that is not work related.

I never think about ev range or how many miles of range I have on my ev, unless it is one of the 6 to 10 times a year I’m taking a long trip. Or, when I’ll be on a medium sized trip and it is really cold all day - very cold weather is still a place for battery improvement.  Early on with an ev I would check range constantly. But, one adapts and I don’t even pay attention on daily use - 350 days out of the year I have no clue what the range is, not an issue.

On trips, the car tells me when and where to stop to charge (and sometimes I modify my charge stop to a different location depending on lunch or bathroom breaks).
When I drive my wife’s hybrid I have to remind myself to check  the gas level. I’m so used to just driving an ev not paying attention to charge level.

 Plus, with an ev you literally have no expenses that you’d have with an engine. None. No belt changes, oil, failed engine parts, radiators, the list goes on etc etc., ev’s have such a lower cost of ownership. At least with a Tesla it’s just a new cabin filter every two years, add window washer fluid, tires. Brake pads and breaks rarely get used, so replacement of pads will likely be because of age after 10 years or well over 150k. Similar to good hybrids but even less brake usage and the regen is more powerful. I never had to replace break pads on hybrid Toyotas under 125k miles.

 I’m also surprised by the fear of hybrid battery failure. Again this tech has come a long way and for Toyota at least a non issue.

The thought of an ev (at least Tesla) battery failure short of 250k miles is not a concern at all. Not with 3 or Y teslas. 2013 or so model S had some issues with high mileage but those were fixed long ago.  For me should be well over 300k+ long after the car has little value. Yes, something can go wrong but no different than a  gas guzzler I had that needed a new engine tear down a rebuild at under 100k. At least the ev has a battery engine warranty of, I think 8 years 120k.  I’d think this is also true for Hyundai and Kia. I’d be afraid of other manufacturers at this point. Nissan had bad battery tech and software in the past for a company in the game so long. I suspect they have improved both, but I haven’t researched it.

Three, I’m surprised by the gas crowd who are anti ev. One would logically think they’d like other people driving non-gas cars to keep gas prices down. More hybrids and ev’s on the road have to help keep pressure off gas prices and help prevent opec from deciding to drive up prices for oil as it would convert more drivers to ev’s and hybrids. And once you go ev, I doubt many go back. I know I won’t. Maybe I’m an outlier but the driving experience is so much better.

Finallly, and I’ve never thought this before, Tesla is close on full self drive. The new AI trained software is actually amazing. A high jump from even 6 months ago. I actually can see them pulling this off within the next 2 years, unless they have peaked and the final 10% is too hard to close on. I’ve always thought it is way, way off. No longer.  It appears to me it is going to be here soon.  Faster than I expected by many years; a decade plus. I thought chip tech on board cars was way off and cloud tech chips would have to be in the car.  Apparently that’s not the case. People just can’t freak out nationally and globally when there are self drive accidents, logic and safety should logically be the guide comparing it versus human driver error and accidents. Logic should rule the mind, but… we know it will get challenged and one computer driving car death probably will get more attention than 10,000 plus humans killing others. Can people be logical?  I think so, but maybe knowing people are not logical beings, I hope to much.  I’ll be looking at accident rates and serious accident rates and deaths per million miles driven by computers versus humans. It will data driven not emotional.

[Uncle Rico]

I continue to be surprised by the general thoughts on perceived ev issues. It is a valued learning experience coming here for me. I’m not on any other social media so it’s good to get others views, accurate or not. EV’s are not really a topic of discussion in my life except for here. I work 6 or 7 days a week and have a family life, so little off the cuff interaction with others that is not work related.

I never think about ev range or how many miles of range I have on my ev, unless it is one of the 6 to 10 times a year I’m taking a long trip. Or, when I’ll be on a medium sized trip and it is really cold all day - very cold weather is still a place for battery improvement.  Early on with an ev I would check range constantly. But, one adapts and I don’t even pay attention on daily use - 350 days out of the year I have no clue what the range is, not an issue.

On trips, the car tells me when and where to stop to charge (and sometimes I modify my charge stop to a different location depending on lunch or bathroom breaks).
When I drive my wife’s hybrid I have to remind myself to check  the gas level. I’m so used to just driving an ev not paying attention to charge level.

 Plus, with an ev you literally have no expenses that you’d have with an engine. None. No belt changes, oil, failed engine parts, radiators, the list goes on etc etc., ev’s have such a lower cost of ownership. At least with a Tesla it’s just a new cabin filter every two years, add window washer fluid, tires. Brake pads and breaks rarely get used, so replacement of pads will likely be because of age after 10 years or well over 150k. Similar to good hybrids but even less brake usage and the regen is more powerful. I never had to replace break pads on hybrid Toyotas under 125k miles.

 I’m also surprised by the fear of hybrid battery failure. Again this tech has come a long way and for Toyota at least a non issue.

The thought of an ev (at least Tesla) battery failure short of 250k miles is not a concern at all. Not with 3 or Y teslas. 2013 or so model S had some issues with high mileage but those were fixed long ago.  For me should be well over 300k+ long after the car has little value. Yes, something can go wrong but no different than a  gas guzzler I had that needed a new engine tear down a rebuild at under 100k. At least the ev has a battery engine warranty of, I think 8 years 120k.  I’d think this is also true for Hyundai and Kia. I’d be afraid of other manufacturers at this point. Nissan had bad battery tech and software in the past for a company in the game so long. I suspect they have improved both, but I haven’t researched it.

Three, I’m surprised by the gas crowd who are anti ev. One would logically think they’d like other people driving non-gas cars to keep gas prices down. More hybrids and ev’s on the road have to help keep pressure off gas prices and help prevent opec from deciding to drive up prices for oil as it would convert more drivers to ev’s and hybrids. And once you go ev, I doubt many go back. I know I won’t. Maybe I’m an outlier but the driving experience is so much better.

Finallly, and I’ve never thought this before, Tesla is close on full self drive. The new AI trained software is actually amazing. A high jump from even 6 months ago. I actually can see them pulling this off within the next 2 years, unless they have peaked and the final 10% is too hard to close on. I’ve always thought it is way, way off. No longer.  It appears to me it is going to be here soon.  Faster than I expected by many years; a decade plus. I thought chip tech on board cars was way off and cloud tech chips would have to be in the car.  Apparently that’s not the case. People just can’t freak out nationally and globally when there are self drive accidents, logic and safety should logically be the guide comparing it versus human driver error and accidents. Logic should rule the mind, but… we know it will get challenged and one computer driving car death probably will get more attention than 10,000 plus humans killing others. Can people be logical?  I think so, but maybe knowing people are not logical beings, I hope to much.  I’ll be looking at accident rates and serious accident rates and deaths per million miles driven by computers versus humans. It will data driven not emotional.

Goo-

It’s become a political issue.  Your points are smart, simple and logical.  I’ve been following the technology closely for a long time for investment purposes.  It boggles the mind we still have some who will be a slave to ICE for simply political reasons.

The self-drive vehicles are much closer than we think.  We’ve been trending this way for close to a decade.  It’ll be a political fight as well. 

Automakers are well-aware of the future as well.  Future generations will be driving EV’s or being driven by EV’s.  The road to progress is often blocked by special interests and politics but on this, automakers and smart people know the future and it isn’t ICE

[ATL MU Warrior]

Goo-

It’s become a political issue.  Your points are smart, simple and logical.  I’ve been following the technology closely for a long time for investment purposes.  It boggles the mind we still have some who will be a slave to ICE for simply political reasons.

The self-drive vehicles are much closer than we think.  We’ve been trending this way for close to a decade.  It’ll be a political fight as well. 

Automakers are well-aware of the future as well.  Future generations will be driving EV’s or being driven by EV’s.  The road to progress is often blocked by special interests and politics but on this, automakers and smart people know the future and it isn’t ICE

I’m with you on EV and while I don’t have one, I’ll strongly consider the next time I’m in-market, probably next year. 

Honestly, I’m not there yet (and may never be) on self-driving.  I don’t think I could relax enough to let the car do its thing and get the benefit of the tech, but realize that may be my own hang up. 

[GOO]

I guess I know it is political. I just don’t understand why, I guess. But it is funny how the most unabashed conservative I know has two Teslas and a brand new hybrid supercar (I’m embarrassed to say the name, crazy expensive). But he is also a tech evangelist and seems un-influenced by others.

And I ddidn’t know the recent advances in self drive. Really something.

But, oh, I’m not fully there yet either. My car is now driving me to work and home without intervention, roundabouts and highway mostly, some neighborhood.  But I still have two hands on the wheel at roundabouts and ready to brake just in case. It will be an adjustment to be comfortable. And I am a slower driver and it accelerates to fast for my preference. I know it might be able to be adjusted or it is driving like a typical driver. But as my son says if all cars were running this software it would be safe because they won’t hit each other. It’s the interacting with the human drivers that makes it scary.

But I trust it more than plenty of cabs I’ve been in, so that might be the comparison.  I don’t have to tell it to get off the phone or stop showing me pictures while looking back in traffic.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I guess I know it is political. I just don’t understand why, I guess.

To stir up rage. This is the same crowd that made Mr. Potato Head a political issue.

[Pakuni]

To stir up rage. This is the same crowd that made Mr. Potato Head a political issue.

The same crowd that got mad when a piece of candy stopped wearing high heels.

[reinko]

The same crowd that got mad when a piece of candy stopped wearing high heels.

The same crowd who got upset regarding a pancake syrup mascot.

[jficke13]

I’m very bullish on EVs generally but very skeptical of “full self driving.”

The only people doing it are Waymo and even then only in a relatively constrained geographic area (San Francisco I believe).

I’m skeptical because 1. Unconstrained geographic scope strains the model almost infinitely more than constrained. And 2. The chips, sensors, and other hardware necessary to do it aren’t included on Teslas (even ones that they’ve conned their buyers into paying to reserve FSD) and I don’t think the cost of that equipment is tenable on a mass market perspective.


Eg if it costs $50k more to equip a care such that it could pull off FSD, who is going to pay for that just for the novelty of riding along?

[tower912]

Self driving cars in a Midwest snowstorm with the lines and sensors covered.    (Gary Cole in Office Space)  Yeahhh.

Of course, some people struggle with that scenario.   

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

1. I like driving.

2. I trust myself more than I trust the car.

[Uncle Rico]

Self driving cars in a Midwest snowstorm with the lines and sensors covered.    (Gary Cole in Office Space)  Yeahhh.

Of course, some people struggle with that scenario.

Global warming will take care of that

[Hards Alumni]

I’m with you on EV and while I don’t have one, I’ll strongly consider the next time I’m in-market, probably next year. 

Honestly, I’m not there yet (and may never be) on self-driving.  I don’t think I could relax enough to let the car do its thing and get the benefit of the tech, but realize that may be my own hang up.

If we can get to FSD on all cars we can completely redesign our infrastructure.  There would be no need for traffic lights or stop signs, etc.  That savings in traffic, insurance, and time would be absolutely incredible.

But I think that the last 10% that these guys are referring to is absolutely the hardest part.  If the makers of the systems were required to work together and not have to design around non FSD cars they'd probably have the problem solved already.

[MU82]

If we can get to FSD on all cars we can completely redesign our infrastructure.  There would be no need for traffic lights or stop signs, etc.  That savings in traffic, insurance, and time would be absolutely incredible.

But I think that the last 10% that these guys are referring to is absolutely the hardest part.  If the makers of the systems were required to work together and not have to design around non FSD cars they'd probably have the problem solved already.

Getting all the decision-makers, politicians and bureaucrats to even agree on whether the earth is round is difficult enough these days. Hard to envision what it would look like for them to be able to agree on such significant infrastructure needs. But maybe necessity will make it happen one day.

[rocket surgeon]

  full self driving cars-wow!  just think of all the "neat" things that THEY could do with those...ho boy, that list would be deee licious.  all those gubmint experts helping out-can't imagine anything could go wrong there

btw, computer hackers are licking their lips

anyone ever see bait car??

[MU82]

  full self driving cars-wow!  just think of all the "neat" things that THEY could do with those...ho boy, that list would be deee licious.  all those gubmint experts helping out-can't imagine anything could go wrong there

btw, computer hackers are licking their lips

anyone ever see bait car??

Don't talk to us, and don't talk about gubmint. Talk to your new right-wingnut pal, Elon. This is his baby.

[lawdog77]

  full self driving cars-wow!  just think of all the "neat" things that THEY could do with those...ho boy, that list would be deee licious.  all those gubmint experts helping out-can't imagine anything could go wrong there

btw, computer hackers are licking their lips

anyone ever see bait car??

Can you get a DUI in a self driving car?

[dgies9156]

1. My personal advice to you would be to turn in your Murano at least end (or buy it out and trade it in depending on equity/market price) and lease an Ariya. Install a level 2 charger in your garage and plug in every night. Take your other ICE vehicle on the road trips

This was rather where my head was. We also have a gasoline powered sedan that we could drive everywhere (and it has a relatively low amount of miles on it) and could acquire an Ariya at comparatively favorable terms. My wife, however, wants a Murano for long-distance travel.

Big question is whether Nissan will negotiate on the residual. Exactly the same car is available at multiple dealers for between $35,000 and $37,000 and the resid on mine is $42,000. If they negotiate, I'll probably keep the car I now have.

All, the reason EVs have become political is because some states, like California, are outlawing purchase and sale of new ICE vehicles. That was a political decision by the State of California. Period.  We honestly are looking at it on an economic and convenience and need basis.

[jesmu84]

This was rather where my head was. We also have a gasoline powered sedan that we could drive everywhere (and it has a relatively low amount of miles on it) and could acquire an Ariya at comparatively favorable terms. My wife, however, wants a Murano for long-distance travel.

Big question is whether Nissan will negotiate on the residual. Exactly the same car is available at multiple dealers for between $35,000 and $37,000 and the resid on mine is $42,000. If they negotiate, I'll probably keep the car I now have.

All, the reason EVs have become political is because some states, like California, are outlawing purchase and sale of new ICE vehicles. That was a political decision by the State of California. Period.  We honestly are looking at it on an economic and convenience and need basis.

Yea. If your wife doesn't want to only have the sedan as the option for long distance travel, you'll likely have to keep your Murano.

If the dealer wants to sell you the Murano, they'd be silly not to renegotiate.

Do you think it was a political decision when lead-based paint or leaded pipes or leaded gasoline or asbestos were banned by the government ?

[tower912]

Don't forget fluoride in the water.

[dgies9156]

Don't forget fluoride in the water.

OK gang, for the record, I lived in a state for 14 years that fought stuff like this and cringed everything I saw it. To suggest this of me and those of us who have reservations about EVs is disingenuous at a minimum and insulting at most.

If you folks want to go back to a 16th century lifestyle where we take every single man-made pollutant out of the environment, then ban internal combustion engines. While you're at it, plan on banning anything even remotely related to the use and consumption of petrochemicals and carbon-based fuels. Among those things you'll be banning are medical devices, pharmaceuticals, fertilizers, the predominant means of generating electric power not to mention basically all of the industry and commerce that have made modern life comfortable. Oh, and there's nine billion people on this planet. We'll be burning an awful lot of trees!

Keep in mind that the power to recharge your car has to come from somewhere. We don't produce anywhere near enough electricity from renewables to meet America's demand and to change that will require decades. Likewise, if we want everyone on EVs by the California deadline, I'll ask the question I've asked before: Where's the power going to come from?

If you don't want to go back to the 16th century, then our nation and our world has to make choices. Maybe someday, we'll figure out how to use renewables to generate sufficient electric power for places like Chicago or Duluth or Buffalo, to name three Northern cities where I see no way renewables work today. We have a lot of ingenuity in our nation and I'm confident the private sector will get there.

I would note two things to those of you who think I'm an evil polluter who resists technological progress. First, we could reduce our carbon emissions to zero in this nation and it won't matter unless China, India, Vietnam and a host of other emerging industrial countries do the same. Most of these countries are led by authoritarian regimes who said it's their right to pollute because, well after all, we've done it for 200 years. Now it's their turn. Short of using U.S. economic and military might to ostracize these countries, there is nothing we can do to change this behavior. As we build solar and switch to natural gas, China has opened more coal power plants than we have coal plants in the United States.

The second reason is that most of you in here are too young to remember what this country was like before 1970. We gave very little credence to any type of environmental concern. Ironically, it was an evil Republican, Richard Nixon, who created the Environmental Protection Agency. It was the evil Republican who signed into law the Clean Air Act of 1970 and the Clean Water Act of 1972. It was Jimmy Carter, the most conservative Democratic President of the postwar era, who signed  CERCLA in 1980. We're not through but we've come a long way and we Republicans have stood with our Presidents in support of these environmental acts.

One other thought you guys who ridicule me need to keep in mind. The first car I owned had one pollution control device, a PCV valve. My car got about 15 miles in the city and, if I had a good tailwind, 23 miles on the highway. Every car I currently own does better than my first car did on the road, in stop and go traffic. Again, we're not through but we've come a long way.

[tower912]

Yes, the power has to come from somewhere.   Hopefully, soon, it won't be from fossil fuels.    Yes, Nixon started up the EPA.     A long time ago, the poster currently named "Not a serious person" and I engaged in a debate about the future of EVs.   He apparently was an early Tesla adopter and was convinced that EVs would control the market by now.    I argued he was a generation early.   I argued, and still do, that the infrastructure has to improve and that the battery technology would have to go through a couple of generations before EVs became the preferred choice.      I still believe that.    I doubt you will ever own an EV.   I imagine your grandchildren will.   And want to.   
    We are so early into this process.    We are in the Model T stage of EVs.   I buy one car every 10-12 years.    My current sedan has 130 K on it and I average 30 mpg per tank.    It is likely my next car will be a hybrid that averages 40mpg per tank with better performance than my sedan.     If, God willing, I am still with it enough to want another car as I approach 70, I have little doubt that the infrastructure and battery technology will have progressed enough that an EV is the choice.   

[Plaque Lives Matter!]

Yes, the power has to come from somewhere.   Hopefully, soon, it won't be from fossil fuels.    Yes, Nixon started up the EPA.     A long time ago, the poster currently named "Not a serious person" and I engaged in a debate about the future of EVs.   He apparently was an early Tesla adopter and was convinced that EVs would control the market by now.    I argued he was a generation early.   I argued, and still do, that the infrastructure has to improve and that the battery technology would have to go through a couple of generations before EVs became the preferred choice.      I still believe that.    I doubt you will ever own an EV.   I imagine your grandchildren will.   And want to.   
    We are so early into this process.    We are in the Model T stage of EVs.   I buy one car every 10-12 years.    My current sedan has 130 K on it and I average 30 mpg per tank.    It is likely my next car will be a hybrid that averages 40mpg per tank with better performance than my sedan.     If, God willing, I am still with it enough to want another car as I approach 70, I have little doubt that the infrastructure and battery technology will have progressed enough that an EV is the choice.

I’m with you. My current car will likely be my last full gas car. But I’m still pretty wary at the moment of fully committing. Likely it would be a one electric, one gas type of deal

[Skatastrophy]

I’m with you. My current car will likely be my last full gas car. But I’m still pretty wary at the moment of fully committing. Likely it would be a one electric, one gas type of deal

I had a camry hybrid ~15 years ago and it was great

[jesmu84]

OK gang, for the record, I lived in a state for 14 years that fought stuff like this and cringed everything I saw it. To suggest this of me and those of us who have reservations about EVs is disingenuous at a minimum and insulting at most.

If you folks want to go back to a 16th century lifestyle where we take every single man-made pollutant out of the environment, then ban internal combustion engines. While you're at it, plan on banning anything even remotely related to the use and consumption of petrochemicals and carbon-based fuels. Among those things you'll be banning are medical devices, pharmaceuticals, fertilizers, the predominant means of generating electric power not to mention basically all of the industry and commerce that have made modern life comfortable. Oh, and there's nine billion people on this planet. We'll be burning an awful lot of trees!

Keep in mind that the power to recharge your car has to come from somewhere. We don't produce anywhere near enough electricity from renewables to meet America's demand and to change that will require decades. Likewise, if we want everyone on EVs by the California deadline, I'll ask the question I've asked before: Where's the power going to come from?

If you don't want to go back to the 16th century, then our nation and our world has to make choices. Maybe someday, we'll figure out how to use renewables to generate sufficient electric power for places like Chicago or Duluth or Buffalo, to name three Northern cities where I see no way renewables work today. We have a lot of ingenuity in our nation and I'm confident the private sector will get there.

I would note two things to those of you who think I'm an evil polluter who resists technological progress. First, we could reduce our carbon emissions to zero in this nation and it won't matter unless China, India, Vietnam and a host of other emerging industrial countries do the same. Most of these countries are led by authoritarian regimes who said it's their right to pollute because, well after all, we've done it for 200 years. Now it's their turn. Short of using U.S. economic and military might to ostracize these countries, there is nothing we can do to change this behavior. As we build solar and switch to natural gas, China has opened more coal power plants than we have coal plants in the United States.

The second reason is that most of you in here are too young to remember what this country was like before 1970. We gave very little credence to any type of environmental concern. Ironically, it was an evil Republican, Richard Nixon, who created the Environmental Protection Agency. It was the evil Republican who signed into law the Clean Air Act of 1970 and the Clean Water Act of 1972. It was Jimmy Carter, the most conservative Democratic President of the postwar era, who signed  CERCLA in 1980. We're not through but we've come a long way and we Republicans have stood with our Presidents in support of these environmental acts.

One other thought you guys who ridicule me need to keep in mind. The first car I owned had one pollution control device, a PCV valve. My car got about 15 miles in the city and, if I had a good tailwind, 23 miles on the highway. Every car I currently own does better than my first car did on the road, in stop and go traffic. Again, we're not through but we've come a long way.

You didn't answer my question.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

You didn't answer my question.

I give you credit for reading the entire thing.