Ohio train disaster

[jesmu84]

Seems bad, eh?

That area gonna become a superfund site

[Plaque Lives Matter!]

Good thing Union Joe got them all back to work! Most of analysts suggests this could have been avoided if they were focusing on buy backs

[jesmu84]

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/feb/11/ohio-train-derailment-wake-up-call

Maybe the unions were right?

[tower912]

This story is going to get bigger.

[jesmu84]

This story is going to get bigger.

Because?

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Because?

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/nation/ohio-derailment-that-released-toxic-chemicals-raises-railroad-safety-questions

[tower912]

The short, intermediate, and long term effects of the hazardous materials on the environment.   Cattle, wildlife, groundwater, farmland.   Oh yeah, and the effect on human health.  No bueno.

[Babybluejeans]

White Noise — released as a great film adaptation just several weeks before — predicts this almost to the T.

[jesmu84]

The short, intermediate, and long term effects of the hazardous materials on the environment.   Cattle, wildlife, groundwater, farmland.   Oh yeah, and the effect on human health.  No bueno.

Allegedly, short term has been cleared for safety by the EPA.

[4everwarriors]

Nothing to see here. Just some stray chemicals. Been happening for years. Carry on, hey?

[jesmu84]

Nothing to see here. Just some stray chemicals. Been happening for years. Carry on, hey?

Thanks to boomers like yourself, that's the trend.

[Babybluejeans]

Nothing to see here. Just some stray chemicals. Been happening for years.

Many decades, including in our water supply. Finally you dipchitz are taking notice.

[jesmu84]

https://www.barstoolsports.com/blog/3456138/the-scenes-out-of-east-palestine-ohio-after-a-rail-car-carrying-deadly-chemicals-exploded-into-flames-are-wild

Lots of stuff here. Some of the Twitter stuff...eh

[jesmu84]

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/norfolk-southern-giving-25-000-200000640.html

$25000 for local residents

[jesmu84]

Pets dying. Fish in streams dying. Chickens dying

This seems bad.

And this doesn't take into account long term environmental aspects. Likely cancer clusters.

Questions about how much spilled into the Ohio river and could impact lots of the Midwest.

Faulty brakes on the train. Obama introduced regulations for train brakes, Trump cancelled, Biden didn't re-introduce and Pete has no interest in doing it now.

[JWags85]

Pets dying. Fish in streams dying. Chickens dying

This seems bad.

And this doesn't take into account long term environmental aspects. Likely cancer clusters.

Questions about how much spilled into the Ohio river and could impact lots of the Midwest.

Faulty brakes on the train. Obama introduced regulations for train brakes, Trump cancelled, Biden didn't re-introduce and Pete has no interest in doing it now.

Is there confirmation on that?  I saw reports of it but then it was referring to dead chickens

[jesmu84]

Is there confirmation on that?  I saw reports of it but then it was referring to dead chickens

https://www.wdtn.com/news/ohio/health-concerns-mounting-as-animals-become-sick-after-ohio-train-derailment/

Foxes here

[Jockey]

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/norfolk-southern-giving-25-000-200000640.html

$25000 for local residents

Or, in layman’s terms, $5 per resident.

Who says corporate leaders aren’t responsible?

[dgies9156]

A couple of thoughts:

1) We're using railroads to transport many things that are better served transported through pipelines. I can't speak to what was on the Ohio train, but every day, 100 car trains full of Canadian crude travel through Chicago, the western suburbs of Milwaukee and along the NS/CSX corridors to refineries in the east. If one of those cars derails, one hopes the latest FRA crashworthiness standards prevail. We'd be better off with a pipeline, but, oops, that ship has sailed.

2) Was the car carrying the chemicals a doubled-hulled tank car? If it was, then uhh oh. If it wasn't, then there were some issues with the quality of the car, as the car probably was old.

3) On a national basis, we need to decide what risks we are going to take. The notion that we can eliminate ALL environmental risks is foolish unless we want to eliminate our standard of living and return to how we lived around 1900. We need to accept the fact that we're human, we make mistakes and we need to manage the risk. It means that crap is going to happen but it also means we should be really good at addressing how to mitigate the risk we take. Note: Mitigate and eliminate are two different words.

[Hards Alumni]

A couple of thoughts:

1) We're using railroads to transport many things that are better served transported through pipelines. I can't speak to what was on the Ohio train, but every day, 100 car trains full of Canadian crude travel through Chicago, the western suburbs of Milwaukee and along the NS/CSX corridors to refineries in the east. If one of those cars derails, one hopes the latest FRA crashworthiness standards prevail. We'd be better off with a pipeline, but, oops, that ship has sailed.

2) Was the car carrying the chemicals a doubled-hulled tank car? If it was, then uhh oh. If it wasn't, then there were some issues with the quality of the car, as the car probably was old.

3) On a national basis, we need to decide what risks we are going to take. The notion that we can eliminate ALL environmental risks is foolish unless we want to eliminate our standard of living and return to how we lived around 1900. We need to accept the fact that we're human, we make mistakes and we need to manage the risk. It means that crap is going to happen but it also means we should be really good at addressing how to mitigate the risk we take. Note: Mitigate and eliminate are two different words.

This particular accident was 100% preventable.  Read the story.

[jesmu84]

A couple of thoughts:

1) We're using railroads to transport many things that are better served transported through pipelines. I can't speak to what was on the Ohio train, but every day, 100 car trains full of Canadian crude travel through Chicago, the western suburbs of Milwaukee and along the NS/CSX corridors to refineries in the east. If one of those cars derails, one hopes the latest FRA crashworthiness standards prevail. We'd be better off with a pipeline, but, oops, that ship has sailed.

2) Was the car carrying the chemicals a doubled-hulled tank car? If it was, then uhh oh. If it wasn't, then there were some issues with the quality of the car, as the car probably was old.

3) On a national basis, we need to decide what risks we are going to take. The notion that we can eliminate ALL environmental risks is foolish unless we want to eliminate our standard of living and return to how we lived around 1900. We need to accept the fact that we're human, we make mistakes and we need to manage the risk. It means that crap is going to happen but it also means we should be really good at addressing how to mitigate the risk we take. Note: Mitigate and eliminate are two different words.

When profit/growth/efficiency is the goal, risk is an afterthought

[dgies9156]

This particular accident was 100% preventable.  Read the story.

Most accidents are. That's why they call them accidents.

Consider the infamous DC10 crash at ORD in 1979. It was an accident but it happened because (a) A group of maintenance pros changed the way the took the jet engine and pylon off the wing, without a thorough vetting of the implications; (b) The DC10 operating manual had the exact opposite procedure that should have been followed for a left wing stall; and, (c) The hydraulic fluid lines were not capable of sealing themselves largely because no one ever imagined an accident akin to what happened at ORD.

Now look at almost every car accident known to mankind. The primary cause was driver error, or someone not paying attention to conditions around them. That could be anything from a bald tire or bad brakes or other equipment to focusing too much on a sign or roadside distraction. Or maybe breaking rules of the road.

The core issue I raised remains. We have to accept that we're human and will make mistakes. We all do. Some are bigger than others. In the DC10 case, the FAA banned the one-step engine removal, United and American revised their operating manuals and we didn't have any more DC10 engine fall-offs. Instead, we had one crash into a Mountain in Antarctica and another blow an engine fan over Nebraska. For railroads, the objective is an NTSB investigation (which will happen) and a series of recommendations that will mitigate the risk.

[jesmu84]

Most accidents are. That's why they call them accidents.

Consider the infamous DC10 crash at ORD in 1979. It was an accident but it happened because (a) A group of maintenance pros changed the way the took the jet engine and pylon off the wing, without a thorough vetting of the implications; (b) The DC10 operating manual had the exact opposite procedure that should have been followed for a left wing stall; and, (c) The hydraulic fluid lines were not capable of sealing themselves largely because no one ever imagined an accident akin to what happened at ORD.

Now look at almost every car accident known to mankind. The primary cause was driver error, or someone not paying attention to conditions around them. That could be anything from a bald tire or bad brakes or other equipment to focusing too much on a sign or roadside distraction. Or maybe breaking rules of the road.

The core issue I raised remains. We have to accept that we're human and will make mistakes. We all do. Some are bigger than others. In the DC10 case, the FAA banned the one-step engine removal, United and American revised their operating manuals and we didn't have any more DC10 engine fall-offs. Instead, we had one crash into a Mountain in Antarctica and another blow an engine fan over Nebraska. For railroads, the objective is an NTSB investigation (which will happen) and a series of recommendations that will mitigate the risk.

Where do you stand on government regulations to reduce risk? Where do you stand on corporations spending money on lobbying to fight those same regulations?

[Hards Alumni]

Most accidents are. That's why they call them accidents.

Consider the infamous DC10 crash at ORD in 1979. It was an accident but it happened because (a) A group of maintenance pros changed the way the took the jet engine and pylon off the wing, without a thorough vetting of the implications; (b) The DC10 operating manual had the exact opposite procedure that should have been followed for a left wing stall; and, (c) The hydraulic fluid lines were not capable of sealing themselves largely because no one ever imagined an accident akin to what happened at ORD.

Now look at almost every car accident known to mankind. The primary cause was driver error, or someone not paying attention to conditions around them. That could be anything from a bald tire or bad brakes or other equipment to focusing too much on a sign or roadside distraction. Or maybe breaking rules of the road.

The core issue I raised remains. We have to accept that we're human and will make mistakes. We all do. Some are bigger than others. In the DC10 case, the FAA banned the one-step engine removal, United and American revised their operating manuals and we didn't have any more DC10 engine fall-offs. Instead, we had one crash into a Mountain in Antarctica and another blow an engine fan over Nebraska. For railroads, the objective is an NTSB investigation (which will happen) and a series of recommendations that will mitigate the risk.

Again, read the story.  It was pure negligence, not an oopsie poopsie.

Equipment was asked for, repairs were demanded, maintenance worker hours were shortened.

I'm not discounting what you're suggesting overall.  But there are accidents, and there is criminal negligence.  This is the latter.

[Jockey]

Now look at almost every car accident known to mankind. The primary cause was driver error, or someone not paying attention to conditions around them. That could be anything from a bald tire or bad brakes or other equipment to focusing too much on a sign or roadside distraction. Or maybe breaking rules of the road.

The core issue I raised remains. We have to accept that we're human and will make mistakes. We all do. Some are bigger than others. In the DC10 case, the FAA banned the one-step engine removal, United and American revised their operating manuals and we didn't have any more DC10 engine fall-offs. Instead, we had one crash into a Mountain in Antarctica and another blow an engine fan over Nebraska. For railroads, the objective is an NTSB investigation (which will happen) and a series of recommendations that will mitigate the risk.

Should we remove all government safety regulations because accidents happen?

[Pakuni]

Most accidents are. That's why they call them accidents.

Consider the infamous DC10 crash at ORD in 1979. It was an accident but it happened because (a) A group of maintenance pros changed the way the took the jet engine and pylon off the wing, without a thorough vetting of the implications; (b) The DC10 operating manual had the exact opposite procedure that should have been followed for a left wing stall; and, (c) The hydraulic fluid lines were not capable of sealing themselves largely because no one ever imagined an accident akin to what happened at ORD.

The part you're not mentioning here is that the airlines changed the way they did this because it saved hundreds of hours of labor over the life of each aircraft. The airlines thought they'd found a quicker and cheaper way to do the maintenance - manufacturer recommendations be damned - and it ended up causing a crash.

[real chili 83]

Thank you 3M for my tasty drinking water.

[jesmu84]

https://v.redd.it/2kgiy96cizha1

[jesmu84]

https://newrepublic.com/post/170570/life-ohio-train-derailment-trouble-breathing-dying-animals-saying-goodbye

[jesmu84]

https://www.levernews.com/rail-companies-blocked-safety-rules-before-ohio-derailment/

[jesmu84]

I think it's odd that the governor hasn't declared a state of emergency, which would allow FEMA to cleanup/help

[MU82]

From the Columbus Dispatch, Ohio's governor is outraged:

Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine wants Congress to reassess rail legislation that allowed a train to haul toxic cargo through his state. “Frankly, if this is true, and I’m told it’s true, this is absurd,” DeWine said. Under current regulations, because only some of the cars on the Norfolk Southern train that derailed earlier this month carried toxic cargo, the company was exempt from notifying Ohio authorities of its haul. “They’re taking care of the railroad, but they’re not taking care of business here,” East Palestine resident Tim Cumberlidge complained. Locals will meet with officials at a town hall Wednesday night.

One might say the governor sounds like a whiny, woke politician ... but he has an R next to his name.

[dgies9156]

The part you're not mentioning here is that the airlines changed the way they did this because it saved hundreds of hours of labor over the life of each aircraft. The airlines thought they'd found a quicker and cheaper way to do the maintenance - manufacturer recommendations be damned - and it ended up causing a crash.

Your finding is correct as to how the one-step engine drop happened. Your characterization of my comments disregards the clause "without a full vetting of the implications."

The mechanics for American Airlines in Tulsa developed the one-step method. Sometimes people get so locked up in what they are required to do that they fail to see the broader implications of what they're doing.

There also is complacency. In the Ohio case, how many times did chemicals go through Ohio (or Indiana, Illinois, Iowa etc.) without incident? The answer probably is lots

[Jockey]

https://www.levernews.com/rail-companies-blocked-safety-rules-before-ohio-derailment/

Rail companies cannot block safety rules.

Politicians can.

[Jay Bee]

Can the paternity leave dude help on this?

[jesmu84]

Can the paternity leave dude help on this?

He should be. Or, his department. Or, this whole administration.

[jesmu84]

Great thread by a local reporter:

https://twitter.com/joedonatelli/status/1625213288614076433?t=5NVij-HI0j9T026Ynv648Q&s=19

More:

https://twitter.com/joedonatelli/status/1625537292612825088?t=v9uClE6WKzTjfpH0k3VGlA&s=19

[Plaque Lives Matter!]

All things considered, people treating this like Chernobyl are over exaggerating. However that’s not to say that this was utterly avoidable and never should have been a thing. It’s entirely reasonable that the groundwater is safe for human consumption now though. Good time to put in the mechanisms to prevent other crashes

[rocket surgeon]

Pets dying. Fish in streams dying. Chickens dying

This seems bad.

And this doesn't take into account long term environmental aspects. Likely cancer clusters.

Questions about how much spilled into the Ohio river and could impact lots of the Midwest.

Faulty brakes on the train. Obama introduced regulations for train brakes, Trump cancelled, Biden didn't re-introduce and Pete has no interest in doing it now.

  the regulations for the brakes was for trains carrying CRUDE OIL.  may sound a bit nuanced to those of you from rio linda, but unfortunately that is how our gubmint works.  one would think if brakes were at issue at all, it would include brakes for trains carrying ANYTHING toxic.  i'm sure this has much to do(very unfortunately) with how much lobbyists were willing to pay the "appropriate" persons or groups.

https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/408125-trump-admin-rolls-back-obama-oil-train-safety-rule/


just wanted to set the record straight before the "blame game" was unnecessarily misconstrued as it seems it already has by the usual suspects

[muwarrior69]

From the Columbus Dispatch, Ohio's governor is outraged:

Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine wants Congress to reassess rail legislation that allowed a train to haul toxic cargo through his state. “Frankly, if this is true, and I’m told it’s true, this is absurd,” DeWine said. Under current regulations, because only some of the cars on the Norfolk Southern train that derailed earlier this month carried toxic cargo, the company was exempt from notifying Ohio authorities of its haul. “They’re taking care of the railroad, but they’re not taking care of business here,” East Palestine resident Tim Cumberlidge complained. Locals will meet with officials at a town hall Wednesday night.

One might say the governor sounds like a whiny, woke politician ... but he has an R next to his name.

The lady interviewed on Tucker Carlson last night (I know I know) was not too happy with DeWine either. At the town meeting she also challenged any EPA official to drink a bottle of tap water she brought with her. There were no takers. These people don't care if there is an R or a D after some politician's name. They just want straight answers to their questions and concerns and they're not getting any.

[tower912]

For 30+ years, I trained annually on railroad disasters.   This falls into the 'worst case scenario' category as far as the large amount and type of hazardous materials released.    Just like a Tesla fire in a garage in the middle of a row of townhomes or the next school shooting, the questions have always been when and where, not if.

So, when I said a few days ago that this was only going to get worse....

[jesmu84]

All things considered, people treating this like Chernobyl are over exaggerating. However that’s not to say that this was utterly avoidable and never should have been a thing. It’s entirely reasonable that the groundwater is safe for human consumption now though. Good time to put in the mechanisms to prevent other crashes

I'm not 100% sure the groundwater is safe.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/ohio-sen-vance-takes-video-creek-east-palestine-chemical-spill-this-disgusting

[jesmu84]

  the regulations for the brakes was for trains carrying CRUDE OIL.  may sound a bit nuanced to those of you from rio linda, but unfortunately that is how our gubmint works.  one would think if brakes were at issue at all, it would include brakes for trains carrying ANYTHING toxic.  i'm sure this has much to do(very unfortunately) with how much lobbyists were willing to pay the "appropriate" persons or groups.

https://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/408125-trump-admin-rolls-back-obama-oil-train-safety-rule/


just wanted to set the record straight before the "blame game" was unnecessarily misconstrued as it seems it already has by the usual suspects

This is correct.

So we have a company not wanting to upgrade because of cost. And a government not wanting to enforce new regulations because of lobbying.

What do you believe should be the solution?

[MuggsyB]

For 30+ years, I trained annually on railroad disasters.   This falls into the 'worst case scenario' category as far as the large amount and type of hazardous materials released.    Just like a Tesla fire in a garage in the middle of a row of townhomes or the next school shooting, the questions have always been when and where, not if.

So, when I said a few days ago that this was only going to get worse....

Tower,

None of this sounds good to me.  At all. 

[rocket surgeon]

This is correct.

So we have a company not wanting to upgrade because of cost. And a government not wanting to enforce new regulations because of lobbying.

What do you believe should be the solution?

  get the f' ing money out of politics...in other words, there is no solution so very unfortunately

  with partisanship-money-power at such a high, NO ONE can be impartial today regardless of right/wrong anymore. 

there is absolutely NO reason for our gubmint to PROPERLY respond to this disaster in ohio.  i would love to hear WHY these people have been given the middle finger from this admin and the EPA.  now it's going to come down to trust, but that has been eroding for some time now while the drip...drip...drip continues. 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

What do you mean "there is no reason for the government to properly respond to this disaster?" The regulation of interstate commerce is the responsibility of the federal government. It is literally their responsibility to respond to this disaster.

And you aren't getting money out of politics. You could take steps to de-emphasize its influence, but that would require Constitutional amendments and the enforcement of ethics rules. Neither are terribly likely.

[MU82]

  get the f' ing money out of politics.

Pleasantly surprised that you and I agree that Citizens United was a disaster of a decision by SCOTUS.

[tower912]

Governor Mike Dewine at a February 14 press briefing....

"Look, the president called me and said 'Anything you need'.   I have not called him back after that conversation.   We will not hesitate to do so if we see a problem or anything, but I'm not seeing it."

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ohios-dewine-says-he-has-not-taken-up-biden-on-offer-of-anything-you-need-in-wake-of-train-derailment-disaster-adf4c949

[jesmu84]

Governor Mike Dewine at a February 14 press briefing....

"Look, the president called me and said 'Anything you need'.   I have not called him back after that conversation.   We will not hesitate to do so if we see a problem or anything, but I'm not seeing it."

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/ohios-dewine-says-he-has-not-taken-up-biden-on-offer-of-anything-you-need-in-wake-of-train-derailment-disaster-adf4c949

I've seen a lot of anger directed toward the white house for not sending in FEMA. Except they can only go when asked. And Dewine hasn't asked

[jesmu84]

  get the f' ing money out of politics...in other words, there is no solution so very unfortunately

  with partisanship-money-power at such a high, NO ONE can be impartial today regardless of right/wrong anymore. 

there is absolutely NO reason for our gubmint to PROPERLY respond to this disaster in ohio.  i would love to hear WHY these people have been given the middle finger from this admin and the EPA.  now it's going to come down to trust, but that has been eroding for some time now while the drip...drip...drip continues.

Do you believe both Rs and Ds in Congress would not support legislation to get money out of politics?

[JWags85]

Do you believe both Rs and Ds in Congress would not support legislation to get money out of politics?

I absolutely think they would not. They may posture but they all like that sweet sweet special interest cash making life cushy.  And that’s a bipartisan disaster

[Jockey]

I absolutely think they would not. They may posture but they all like that sweet sweet special interest cash making life cushy.  And that’s a bipartisan disaster

Ds support campaign finance reform and would pass it in a nanosecond. Rs would vote unanimously against it.

To say otherwise is just closing your eyes to the truth.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Ds support campaign finance reform and would pass it in a nanosecond. Rs would vote unanimously against it.

To say otherwise is just closing your eyes to the truth.

My God you're dumb.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

My God you're dumb.

wee, wee, wee

Piggy Ziggy adds his usual value zero post

[Lennys Tap]

an oopsie poopsie.

? Fart gone wrong?

[ZiggysFryBoy]

wee, wee, wee

Piggy Ziggy adds his usual value zero post

2🐷

[Jockey]

wee, wee, wee

Piggy Ziggy adds his usual value zero post

T, that’s pretty clever for him. Usually when he wants to show us how smart he is, it’s “Crean sucks”.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

T, that’s pretty clever for him. Usually when he wants to show us how smart he is, it’s “Crean sucks”.

Hahaha hahaha I'm ded.  🤪  🫏🤡

[Lennys Tap]

T, that’s pretty clever for him. Usually when he wants to show us how smart he is, it’s “Crean sucks”.

Uh, no. That’s 4ever, not Ziggy. But given the “All meat eaters look alike” mantra pushed by some I’m not surprised. #Bigotry

[Not A Serious Person]

72% of the area voted for Trump ... nothing to see here

It happens a 1,000 times a year

Now can we get back to the real toxic danger ... gas stoves!

[tower912]

Federal assistance was offered.  As of 2/14 it was not asked for.   Dewine said he did not see a need for it at that point. FEMA does not self deploy.   
On a positive note, the railroad took it upon themselves to check the water and declare it safe.

[Jockey]

Uh, no. That’s 4ever, not Ziggy. But given the “All meat eaters look alike” mantra pushed by some I’m not surprised. #Bigotry

Ziggy. 4ever.

Same thing.

[rocket surgeon]

Do you believe both Rs and Ds in Congress would not support legislation to get money out of politics?

  yes-NOT support is correct

  i'm not an "they all do it" guy because, they all don't do it. 

money however, is power and it makes too many in "public service" eyes go blood shot
    they do all have a family to feed ya know

  we, the people have allowed poitics to get WAY WAY WAY out of hand. 

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Ziggy. 4ever.

Same thing.

Jockey.  🐄💩.

Same thing.

[Jockey]

Jockey.  🐄💩.

Same thing.

Mine was funnier.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

Mine was funnier.

Wrong.

[jesmu84]

https://www.commondreams.org/news/east-palestine-ohio-water

Whoops! Maybe don't drink that water just yet...

[MuggsyB]

https://www.commondreams.org/news/east-palestine-ohio-water

Whoops! Maybe don't drink that water just yet...

This thing is truly a disaster.  I'd like to see the regulators go swimming, walk barefoot, or lick a leaf to prove how safe it is. 

[Mutaman]

Query: What should I be more outraged about-train derailments or balloons ?

[Pakuni]

Query: What should I be more outraged about-train derailments or balloons ?

Gay penguins.

[tower912]

This one is for muggsy.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ohio-train-derailment-leaves-estimated-180524113.html

[MuggsyB]

This one is for muggsy.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ohio-train-derailment-leaves-estimated-180524113.html

Great.  Is there a single person who would drink water right now from East Palestime, Ohio?  This is an unmitigated disaster and been handled incredibly poorly on countless levels from government officials. 

[jesmu84]

At least Norfolk southern is handling it well