Shaka's team

[brewcity77]

For the most part, a P6 team that finishes 9-1 is "better" than one that finishes 3-7. That's not universal, of course, in part because of the disparate schedules, but again that's for the computers to decide.

The "most part" is the problematic bit. When you take the whole season, that's an effort to remove bias. Focusing more on a small part of the season that naturally preferences larger conference teams (and the at-large pool isn't supposed to compare just P6 to P6) makes it harder to look with a fair eye.

I get the causal argument behind this, but I don't think it would have the outcome result people want.

[GoldenEagles03]

You can block me, if I bother you so much. The reality is I am a contrarian. I will take the other side of overly optimistic people and the other side of overly pessimistic people.

Posters here are overly optimistic about how good MU basketball is.  I was around for all of Al's games. I know what great is, I love MU basketball, but I also know many posters believe we are a great program. It galls me to see how much better Wisconsin has been than us this century. In the new Big East how many conference tournament games has MU won? We have been pretty pathetic.

I like Shaka. I like his personality, especially compared to Wojo's. I like how he brought in young players and is taking a long-term approach. None of his players' transferring out tells me his players' like him. This is much better than having a coach like Ewing, who seems to have his players running away as fast as they can from him. I do expect significant improvement out of Kolek and Prosper this year. They can replace Lewis and Morsell. The rest depends on how last year's reserves step up and whether the newcomers can make a difference. To me being good means winning games in Big East tournament and/or NCAA tournament. Zero tournament wins means we are irrelevant.

You don't just simply win tournament games. It's a process. We thought the process would take longer than it already has, but you have to let a culture grow before just winning.

At the end of the day a team that everyone in the league thought would take 9th out of 11 teams, beat a Final Four team twice, made the NCAA tournament, had a bench player from the previous season make 1st team All Big East in Justin, and had Kam as a unanimous 1st team all Freshman.

We all want to win now, but that's just not how it works. If the only players you are losing are those to graduation and the NBA it shows that the early stages of the culture are working. I honestly don't think I could be much more excited about the direction of the program and upcoming growth we will see than I am right now. You all should be excited. Enjoy the ride because it's as fun, if not more fun, than the destination.

[Shooter McGavin]

You don't just simply win tournament games. It's a process. We thought the process would take longer than it already has, but you have to let a culture grow before just winning.

At the end of the day a team that everyone in the league thought would take 9th out of 11 teams, beat a Final Four team twice, made the NCAA tournament, had a bench player from the previous season make 1st team All Big East in Justin, and had Kam as a unanimous 1st team all Freshman.

We all want to win now, but that's just not how it works. If the only players you are losing are those to graduation and the NBA it shows that the early stages of the culture are working. I honestly don't think I could be much more excited about the direction of the program and upcoming growth we will see than I am right now. You all should be excited. Enjoy the ride because it's as fun, if not more fun, than the destination.

Regarding your last paragraph and being excited about the direction of the culture and team, I think much of that is legitimate.  But Shaka would garner even more support from the general MU fan base by bringing in higher level talent. 

Unranked players are not exciting to the general MU fan. Naming Wojo recruits as the jewels of last years team doesn't do it either.  We won't know the outcome of this culture building until this coming season is finished.  Most fans are willing to to wait because we have no other choice.  TALENT and culture have to combine to win.  Hopefully Shaka is simply a better talent evaluator than the rankings would show and we are getting major diamonds in the rough.

[GoldenEagles03]

Regarding your last paragraph and being excited about the direction of the culture and team, I think much of that is legitimate.  But Shaka would garner even more support from the general MU fan base by bringing in higher level talent. 

Unranked players are not exciting to the general MU fan. Naming Wojo recruits as the jewels of last years team doesn't do it either.  We won't know the outcome of this culture building until this coming season is finished.  Most fans are willing to to wait because we have no other choice.  TALENT and culture have to combine to win.  Hopefully Shaka is simply a better talent evaluator than the rankings would show and we are getting major diamonds in the rough.

Kolek and OMax are Smart recruits. The 2 graduates, Kuath and Morsell, were also recruited by Shaka. Mitchell and Jones were the only 2 re-recruited by Shaka to retain commitment, he didn't have to keep them around but did because he liked the fit with his plan. Ellis, Joplin, and Itejere were also Shaka recruits.

As far as Justin goes, Shaka deserves the credit for getting him to where he is at. Justin has answered dozens of questions regarding his status at Marquette and only mentioned the Wojo regime once as far as I've seen. Sure, Wojo recruited him, but Shaka coached him to the next level and Justin has raved about him on numerous occasions.

This team is all Shaka's doing and the Freshman class of last year was ranked in the Top 20 in both ESPN and 247, so he does recruit high level players and has continued to do so.

[MU82]

The "most part" is the problematic bit. When you take the whole season, that's an effort to remove bias. Focusing more on a small part of the season that naturally preferences larger conference teams (and the at-large pool isn't supposed to compare just P6 to P6) makes it harder to look with a fair eye.

I get the causal argument behind this, but I don't think it would have the outcome result people want.

Thanks, brew. It's certainly not a hill I'm willing to die on.

[GoldenEagles03]

Kolek and OMax are Smart recruits. The 2 graduates, Kuath and Morsell, were also recruited by Shaka. Mitchell and Jones were the only 2 re-recruited by Shaka to retain commitment, he didn't have to keep them around but did because he liked the fit with his plan. Ellis, Joplin, and Itejere were also Shaka recruits.

As far as Justin goes, Shaka deserves the credit for getting him to where he is at. Justin has answered dozens of questions regarding his status at Marquette and only mentioned the Wojo regime once as far as I've seen. Sure, Wojo recruited him, but Shaka coached him to the next level and Justin has raved about him on numerous occasions.

This team is all Shaka's doing and the Freshman class of last year was ranked in the Top 20 in both ESPN and 247, so he does recruit high level players and has continued to do so.

To follow up on this...

Justin was ranked 106 by 247 in his class. 107 Ben Carlson at UW. 108 OMax. 109 Jamari Sibley from Milwaukee who ended up at Georgetown.

All 4 of those guys with ties to the state now in 1 way or another. Carlson and Sibley, who knows what happened to those 2? No clue. Justin and OMax? 1 about to get drafted, the other on draft boards, both by way of Shaka and Marquette.

[Shooter McGavin]

To follow up on this...

Justin was ranked 106 by 247 in his class. 107 Ben Carlson at UW. 108 OMax. 109 Jamari Sibley from Milwaukee who ended up at Georgetown.

All 4 of those guys with ties to the state now in 1 way or another. Carlson and Sibley, who knows what happened to those 2? No clue. Justin and OMax? 1 about to get drafted, the other on draft boards, both by way of Shaka and Marquette.

I like your points on Shakas developmental acumen.   Next year it will be fun to find out how the culture, talent and development come together. 

[Elonsmusk]

You don't just simply win tournament games. It's a process. We thought the process would take longer than it already has, but you have to let a culture grow before just winning.

At the end of the day a team that everyone in the league thought would take 9th out of 11 teams, beat a Final Four team twice, made the NCAA tournament, had a bench player from the previous season make 1st team All Big East in Justin, and had Kam as a unanimous 1st team all Freshman.

We all want to win now, but that's just not how it works. If the only players you are losing are those to graduation and the NBA it shows that the early stages of the culture are working. I honestly don't think I could be much more excited about the direction of the program and upcoming growth we will see than I am right now. You all should be excited. Enjoy the ride because it's as fun, if not more fun, than the destination.

You are 100% on point with your post.  I'm not expecting a step up from last year's results.  I expect a similar type of season/record.  However, I think 2023-2024 could be where we see the jump/2nd weekend caliber team.

[GoldenEagles03]

You are 100% on point with your post.  I'm not expecting a step up from last year's results.  I expect a similar type of season/record.  However, I think 2023-2024 could be where we see the jump/2nd weekend caliber team.

Yup, and the overall team may not see a step up because of all that departed, but the individual players returning should and will see significant improvement. An overall better finish than last year can't be ruled out until we see how everyone blends together.

[MU82]

To follow up on this...

Justin was ranked 106 by 247 in his class. 107 Ben Carlson at UW. 108 OMax. 109 Jamari Sibley from Milwaukee who ended up at Georgetown.

All 4 of those guys with ties to the state now in 1 way or another. Carlson and Sibley, who knows what happened to those 2? No clue. Justin and OMax? 1 about to get drafted, the other on draft boards, both by way of Shaka and Marquette.

Great post, good points. Ratings are subjective, and beyond the top couple dozen they're often "wrong."

As to the next posts by you and Ners ... I expect Shaka's team to do at least as well in Year 2 as we did in Year 1. I'll be a little disappointed if we don't do better. And barring something unforeseen, like a rash of injuries or something, I'll be very disappointed if we do worse.

And then I'll expect even more in 2023-24!

[Lennys Tap]

Well despite the weak Non-Con schedule Ken Pom (which I believe the committee does use as a component - Brew?) A&M was ranked 43 and Rutgers 74 after their last games of their respective conference tournaments.

End of the season Ken Pom isn't perfect but it's pretty damn good.

Any system that picks the 74th ranked team over #43 should be re-examined. It's flawed by more than a little.

And believe me, every Scooper not named Sultan (or any of his aliases) would scream bloody murder if Ken Pom had us #43 and every pundit had us in - only to be passed over for the #74 team. And we all would be justified.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

And believe me, every Scooper not named Sultan (or any of his aliases) would scream bloody murder if Ken Pom had us #43 and every pundit had us in - only to be passed over for the #74 team. And we all would be justified.

I think most pundits had TAMU out but maybe I'm misremembering.

[Elonsmusk]

End of the season Ken Pom isn't perfect but it's pretty damn good.

Any system that picks the 74th ranked team over #43 should be re-examined. It's flawed by more than a little.

And believe me, every Scooper not named Sultan (or any of his aliases) would scream bloody murder if Ken Pom had us #43 and every pundit had us in - only to be passed over for the #74 team. And we all would be justified.

Agree 100%.  No doubt if MU finished as A&M did last year Scoop would have been on fire with outrage!  The committee used to look at the last 10 games as a factor.  As I posted earlier, I'd like to see it as a factor used for all teams on the bubble.

[cheebs09]

Agree 100%.  No doubt if MU finished as A&M did last year Scoop would have been on fire with outrage!  The committee used to look at the last 10 games as a factor.  As I posted earlier, I'd like to see it as a factor used for all teams on the bubble.

Just because we'd be outraged doesn't mean we'd be right.

[Pakuni]

Agree 100%.  No doubt if MU finished as A&M did last year Scoop would have been on fire with outrage!  The committee used to look at the last 10 games as a factor.  As I posted earlier, I'd like to see it as a factor used for all teams on the bubble.

Scoop outrage is never wrong.
That said, I'm pretty sure that if Marquette just missed the tournament because it scheduled one of the weakest P6 nonconference schedules in the nation, most of the outrage would have been directed at the coach and athletic department who made that happen.

[tower912]

MU won 20 games and missed out on the NCAA and NIT not too long ago.

[Lennys Tap]

MU won 20 games and missed out on the NCAA and NIT not too long ago.

Final Ken Pom ranking that year? 97. Hard to be outraged when you're not even in the conversation.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Scoop outrage is never wrong.
That said, I'm pretty sure that if Marquette just missed the tournament because it scheduled one of the weakest P6 nonconference schedules in the nation, most of the outrage would have been directed at the coach and athletic department who made that happen.

Actually, Scoop is savvy and would have complained five minutes after the schedule was released.

[The Sultan]

I think most pundits had TAMU out but maybe I'm misremembering.

Bracket Matrix had them as one of the last four in ahead of Rutgers, ND and Wyoming.

So wah...Buzzz got screwed out of Dayton.

[Pakuni]

Actually, Scoop is savvy and would have complained five minutes after the schedule was released.

Fair.

[Pakuni]

This team is all Shaka's doing and the Freshman class of last year was ranked in the Top 20 in both ESPN and 247, so he does recruit high level players and has continued to do so.

If you're going to make this point, then it's probably fair to point out that the two highest ranked players of that class - and the two best performers so far - were signed by the last guy. And yes, I know that Shaka had to re-recruit them, but obviously they already had been sold on Marquette by then.

[Herman Cain]

If you're going to make this point, then it's probably fair to point out that the two highest ranked players of that class - and the two best performers so far - were signed by the last guy. And yes, I know that Shaka had to re-recruit them, but obviously they already had been sold on Marquette by then.

The last guy could definitely recruit, his coaching skills were less refined .Now we have a coach who can recruit and coach.

[MU82]

Bracket Matrix had them as one of the last four in ahead of Rutgers, ND and Wyoming.

So wah...Buzzz got screwed out of Dayton.

Yessir.

How 'bout don't lose 8 straight games, including home games to horrible Missouri and bad South Carolina teams, and you're easily in? How 'bout after you finally break the streak not losing to a mediocre Vanderbilt team? How 'bout not scheduling a bunch of non-con games against the Sisters of the Poor? How 'bout a little personal responsibility instead of Buzz whining like a little beyotch?

Not sure why any Scoopers not screen-named TAMU are the least bit upset on behalf of Texas A&M.

[Lennys Tap]

Yessir.

How 'bout don't lose 8 straight games, including home games to horrible Missouri and bad South Carolina teams, and you're easily in? How 'bout after you finally break the streak not losing to a mediocre Vanderbilt team? How 'bout not scheduling a bunch of non-con games against the Sisters of the Poor? How 'bout a little personal responsibility instead of Buzz whining like a little beyotch?

Not sure why any Scoopers not screen-named TAMU are the least bit upset on behalf of Texas A&M.

I couldn't care less about A+M or Rutgers.

My point was that the better the teams in the tournament the better the tournament. And there's no doubt in my mind that the #43 team in the final Pomeroy rankings is better than the #74 team. And that if MU (as #43) was passed over in favor of #74 that, despite your protestations to the contrary, you and most other Scoopers would be apoplectic.

[MU82]

I couldn't care less about A+M or Rutgers.

My point was that the better the teams in the tournament the better the tournament. And there's no doubt in my mind that the #43 team in the final Pomeroy rankings is better than the #74 team. And that if MU (as #43) was passed over in favor of #74 that, despite your protestations to the contrary, you and most other Scoopers would be apoplectic.

I'm biased because I'm a Marquette fan, so I obviously wouldn't love it. But I'm quite sure I wouldn't be "apoplectic." I'd be upset that Shaka and the AD put together a cupcake non-con schedule, and I'd be ticked off that we had an 8-game losing streak that included home losses to bad teams.

Each college basketball program has control over two things -- their non-con schedule and their results on the court. Take care of those two things and stop whining about the stuff that's out of your control.