Campus Alert

[The Sultan]

So are saying because people are being "locked up for the wrong things" the system is turning them into violent criminals after they get out?  Crime is completely out of control, that's the bottom line.  Forget the politics, this impacts everyone.  Especially those in impoverished neighborhoods.  Again, how do we get this turned around?  What are the actual policy prescriptions?

Crime is not really "out of control."  It was way worse 20 or 30 years ago.  Sure it is getting worse, but hyperbolic statements like this just aren't helpful.

Anyway, what I am saying is that we are overwhelming the courts and the prison system with people that we can humanely deal with in other ways.  Let's keep the people in jail that are truly a threat to society.

Look at the graph here:

https://www.prisonpolicy.org/reports/pie2020.html

We have 470,000 people in jail who haven't been convicted of anything - because they can't make bail.  Of those, only 150,000 are accused of violent offenses and very likely should stay there.  That's 300,000 people in jail who have been merely accused yet not convicted of non-violent crimes.  Why is it smart for us to allocate resources like this?

[Uncle Rico]

Nah muggy, the Fox News generation will never get it

[WellsstreetWanderer]

 

   Plenty of evidence that low or no bail does not contribute to quality of life

https://ktla.com/news/local-news/man-arrested-3-times-within-16-hours-in-glendale/
   

[TSmith34, Inc.]

 

   Plenty of evidence that low or no bail does not contribute to quality of life

https://ktla.com/news/local-news/man-arrested-3-times-within-16-hours-in-glendale/

"Plenty of evidence" is one news story? Usually if someone prefaces a statement that way I'd be expecting, you know, actual data.

Maybe there actually is "plenty of evidence", I don't know...but I do know this isn't it.

[Billy Hoyle]

Yeah, like the ass hole who shoulda been locked up, but instead decided to take a joyride thru the Waukesha Christmas parade, aina?


#motherfooker

Hey, stop speaking ill of the car.

[Pakuni]

 

   Plenty of evidence that low or no bail does not contribute to quality of life

https://ktla.com/news/local-news/man-arrested-3-times-within-16-hours-in-glendale/

Actual evidence 

"There's no clear evidence linking bail reforms -- which have been in place for years in some cities -- to the recent rise in violent crimes. In fact, the majority of cities that have seen increases in crime have not eliminated cash bail."

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/07/politics/bail-reform-violent-crime-fact-check/index.html

[Hards Alumni]

I agree. The entire prison system should be abolished. Like AOC says, Keeping people in jails is mean.

It's inefficient and ineffective.  Solve the societal problems.  But we don't want to do that.

Neofeudalism must continue!

[Billy Hoyle]

Actual evidence 

"There's no clear evidence linking bail reforms -- which have been in place for years in some cities -- to the recent rise in violent crimes. In fact, the majority of cities that have seen increases in crime have not eliminated cash bail."

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/07/politics/bail-reform-violent-crime-fact-check/index.html

Wow, a partisan anti-bail and anti incarceration group came up with that conclusion?p which they set out to come to? Stunning.

the left-leaning Prison Policy Initiative, a criminal justice reform think tank

Here's something from actual academics:

https://dc.law.utah.edu/scholarship/194/

this article says *only* 4% are rearrested for violent crime. When "it's only 3400 people who were the victims of violent crime, get over it and close prisons" is your response, maybe it isn't as clear cut as you want it to be.

https://nynmedia.com/content/new-data-proves-bail-reform-both-worked-and-failed-depending-who-you-ask

[The Sultan]

It seems kinda anti-liberty to have hundreds of thousands of people in jail, who haven't been convicted of anything, simply because the government claims they should be there. 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

[Pakuni]

Wow, a partisan anti-bail and anti incarceration group came up with that conclusion?p which they set out to come to? Stunning.

the left-leaning Prison Policy Initiative, a criminal justice reform think tank

Here's something from actual academics:

https://dc.law.utah.edu/scholarship/194/

this article says *only* 4% are rearrested for violent crime. When "it's only 3400 people who were the victims of violent crime, get over it and close prisons" is your response, maybe it isn't as clear cut as you want it to be.

https://nynmedia.com/content/new-data-proves-bail-reform-both-worked-and-failed-depending-who-you-ask

And in classic fashion, you argue ad hominem rather than evidence.
Here's more evidence for ya, based on a study of Cook County when it enacted bail reform.

GO18.8A also had no impact on new criminal activity or new violent criminal activity of those defendants released pretrial. Overall, the probability of new criminal activity remained at roughly 17% before and after GO18.8A.
Similarly, the probability of new violent criminal activity remained constant at just 3% before and after GO18.8A.
And overall crimes rates in Chicago – including violent crime rates – were not any higher than expected after the implementation of GO18.8A.

http://www.safetyandjusticechallenge.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/11/Report-Dollars-and-Sense-in-Cook-County.pdf

[Lighthouse 84]

It seems kinda anti-liberty to have hundreds of thousands of people in jail, who haven't been convicted of anything, simply because the government claims they should be there. 🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️🤷‍♂️

It also seems anti-common sense to let out those whose victims are scared to death the criminals will return, or those whose victim's families are grieving because their loved one was killed or raped and some milquetoast prosecutor thinks that the offender won't commit another crime.  I don't think anyone is arguing that a non violent offender, like one arrested for possession of pot, should be locked up. On the flip side, there are those arguing no one should be held before they are convicted. That's f-ed up.   

[MUBurrow]

Yeah, like the ass hole who shoulda been locked up, but instead decided to take a joyride thru the Waukesha Christmas parade, aina?


#motherfooker

But he was out on bail, right?  And if we want to say his bail should have been higher, we mean that it should have been set at a level he was unable to pay because he didn't have the money, and that doesn't exactly seem like how we want to run our legal system either.  If anything, this seems to be a mark in the column of bail reform.

[The Sultan]

It also seems anti-common sense to let out those whose victims are scared to death the criminals will return, or those whose victim's families are grieving because their loved one was killed or raped and some milquetoast prosecutor thinks that the offender won't commit another crime.  I don't think anyone is arguing that a non violent offender, like one arrested for possession of pot, should be locked up. On the flip side, there are those arguing no one should be held before they are convicted. That's f-ed up.   

Of course. But as I said above there are hundreds of thousands of allegedly non-violent offenders in jail. For a country that supposedly believes in personal liberty, that's f-ed up too.

[Uncle Rico]

Seems like there is a lot of common ground on bail reform

[Pakuni]

It also seems anti-common sense to let out those whose victims are scared to death the criminals will return, or those whose victim's families are grieving because their loved one was killed or raped and some milquetoast prosecutor thinks that the offender won't commit another crime.  I don't think anyone is arguing that a non violent offender, like one arrested for possession of pot, should be locked up. On the flip side, there are those arguing no one should be held before they are convicted. That's f-ed up.

Regarding the bolded, who's saying this? I suppose you could find some extrmee outlier, but the vast, vast majority of bail reform advocates propose nothing of the sort. In fact, most bail reform would make it harder, not easier, for violent offenders to go free pretrial.

As for the anti-common sense part, are you suggesting that bail decisions ought to be decided by the perceived level of fear by the accuser? Do you think a domestic violence suspect should be locked up for months pretrial because the accuser says she/he is afraid?
I don't mean this to come off as snarky, but do you understand how bond is set? Because it's not set my prosecutors, milquetoast or otherwise.

[Merit Matters]

Hey, stop speaking ill of the car.

We need common sense car control in this country!

[Uncle Rico]

We need common sense car control in this country!

Black Lives Matter

[Merit Matters]

Black Lives Matter

Agreed, All Lives Matter

[TSmith34, Inc.]

We need common sense car control in this country!

If only would be gun owners had to pass an ownership test before receiving their firearms...and pay an annual licensing fee...and pay insurance for potential mishaps...and be re-tested for competency on occasion.

Alas, the moronic assholes that turned guns into a partisan wedge issue won't allow even the mildest of reforms.

[Uncle Rico]

Agreed, All Lives Matter

Black Lives Matter

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Agreed, All Lives Matter

It's great when people come right out and tell you what they are. Takes away all the guess work.

[withoutbias]

Agreed, All Lives Matter

Except when invading government buildings in a coup attempt. Then those Blue Lives no longer matter.

[Lighthouse 84]

Regarding the bolded, who's saying this? I suppose you could find some extrmee outlier, but the vast, vast majority of bail reform advocates propose nothing of the sort. In fact, most bail reform would make it harder, not easier, for violent offenders to go free pretrial.

As for the anti-common sense part, are you suggesting that bail decisions ought to be decided by the perceived level of fear by the accuser? Do you think a domestic violence suspect should be locked up for months pretrial because the accuser says she/he is afraid?
I don't mean this to come off as snarky, but do you understand how bond is set? Because it's not set my prosecutors, milquetoast or otherwise.

I know.  But prosecutors have some leeway in what they charge or downgrade a charge to.  My point is that those who are arrested habitually or commit some type of violent offense should not be let go as easily as some seem to be.  Not all, but many are let out way too easily.  We hear about them on  the news (local news even).  And if you listen to AOC, Talib, Ohmar, etc., they say the the entire carceral system should be abolished.   So yes.  There are some extreme outliers.  The problem is that some of them are in congress.

And before anyone jumps on the whataboutism train, I'm strictly replying to Pak's question about who's saying people shouldn't be locked up.

[rocket surgeon]

It's inefficient and ineffective.  Solve the societal problems.  But we don't want to do that.

Neofeudalism must continue!

seriously??  solve societal problems??  so how do you suppose we accomplish this one?  you do realize that some people are just unfit for society, right?  i don't know what classes you took at MU that taught you this, but probably a little late to ask for some money back.  but what is this??  just smoke a bowl and puff the magic dragon...weeeee, everything's gonna be alright

[Uncle Rico]

seriously??  solve societal problems??  so how do you suppose we accomplish this one?  you do realize that some people are just unfit for society, right?  i don't know what classes you took at MU that taught you this, but probably a little late to ask for some money back.  but what is this??  just smoke a bowl and puff the magic dragon...weeeee, everything's gonna be alright

I'm going to smoke a bowl in a few minutes.  You should try it and loosen up, Sandy, babe.