Hoya suxa

[brewcity77]

1) I had this team winning 19 games and being in the tourney mix.

2) Ners, feel free to provide your list of bigger coaching mistakes than dropping 2 seed lines because of poor lineup choices and you have a leg to stand on.

If people think Shaka has made so many coaching mistakes, please share them. I don't think he has, which is why Wednesday's lineup management stands out.

[Elonsmusk]

1) I had this team winning 19 games and being in the tourney mix.

2) Ners, feel free to provide your list of bigger coaching mistakes than dropping 2 seed lines because of poor lineup choices and you have a leg to stand on.

We could lose the rest of our games from here on out.  That would massively affect seeding.  You are getting all wound up over a decision made in a game on February 16th. 

As for a leg to stand on, I'd think you'd acknowledge that I was the first Scooper to call out Wojo and go 100% bearish on him 10 games in and not relent.  That proved to be quite accurate.  Shaka is the goods and I don't especially care for you taking him to task over such a trivial event as getting young guys run in a game to see how they fare together.

Guess what?  Shaka learned something from seeing that lineup play together.  Not an option...even if for just a few minutes.  That could be helpful as we approach Tournament play and trying to buy rest in the event you end up making a run in the Big East tournament, and/or NCAA.

[brewcity77]

Shaka is the goods and I don't especially care for you taking him to task over such a trivial event as getting young guys run in a game to see how they fare together.

You are trying assert something that isn't the case. Personally, I think Shaka has done very well and hasn't made many big mistakes. That's why Wednesday stands out.

If you believe he has a number of bigger mistakes, then share those mistakes. If you really think "Shaka is the goods" you should be agreeing with me.

[Uncle Rico]

The points made by Brew, Goose and Ners all are valid.  Both are true.  Personally, it’s a great discussion and problem.

I’m not concerned about the coaching in the G’Town game but understand Brew’s larger point.  His concern is how it will hurt seeding and it does! 

Goose is correct about Shaka’s performance this year, too.  It’s been great.  It’s all part of a larger puzzle. 

Tomorrow is a new day and we’ll see what happens.  If they win, that’s a feather in the cap of Shaka and mitigates some of Brew’s seeding concerns.  If they lose, the seeding slide Brew is concerned with gets worse.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Tower

We have an experienced HC, not a journeyman assistant or a wet behind the ear's assistant and things have to be looked at differently. I went hard on here about the first Creighton game because I felt Shaka blew it, playing a group of young guys against a bunch of stiffs is not high on my list of things to get upset over. Plus, I believe they climb the seeding ladder beginning tomorrow and not worried about a supposed bracket in mid-February. Win games and those twelve minutes will mean nothing in three weeks.

Vander
If that lineup had performed better, everyone would be doing cartwheels because of their performance. I had zero problem with the lineup, modest problems with performance and major problems watching it.

In the long run, it’ll be forgotten, obviously.  My point is now that we have a competent coach who has wildly exceeded most people’s expectations in year 1, fairly questioning a decision that could have a tangible negative impact shouldn’t be a bad thing.

I don’t have an issue that you think this topic is overblown. You could very well be right. But it could also drop us a seed line or two. Yes, that tourney is all about matchups. Maybe that doesn’t bite us in round 1 but it could in round 2.

It’s fine to agree to disagree on the topic and I know it’s the nature of a message board, but some of the reactions to it have been so over the top in the other direction that it’s laughable.

[5DollarPitcher]

Half of these folks thought Shaka put together a NIT bubble team and now are criticizing coaching moves.

+1

[5DollarPitcher]

Goose, I am relaxed and enjoying the ride.   But it appears to me that these are the same criticisms that would have been made about previous coaches in similar situations.   As it should be.

One coach was horrible at his job and constantly fell short of the standard. The other coach is exceeding expectations, perhaps wildly, and bringing the program back to national prominence.

Therefore one coach gets the benefit of the doubt and the other does not. Follow?

[tower912]

I analyze them the same.  The same way I did Crean, the same way I did Buzz.   Follow?

Shaka actually is held to a different standard as the NET wasn't always a thing.   Once upon a time,  a 13 point win was good enough.   Letting a 26 point lead dwindle in a game that was still never in doubt was a minor annoyance.   

[brewcity77]

Letting a 26 point lead dwindle in a game that was still never in doubt was a minor annoyance.

This, and when the coach has generally put the right foot forward all year long, the minor annoyances stand out more because there aren't a large number of significant mistakes to compare it to.

[5DollarPitcher]

I analyze them the same.  The same way I did Crean, the same way I did Buzz.   Follow?

Shaka actually is held to a different standard as the NET wasn't always a thing.   Once upon a time,  a 13 point win was good enough.   Letting a 26 point lead dwindle in a game that was still never in doubt was a minor annoyance.

You’re still not getting it, as usual.

Shaka’s track record thus far shows that he is a quantifiably good coach. Therefore the decisions he makes, so long as they don’t directly lose us a game, shouldn’t be criticized by Daryl Morey wannabes.

Wojo’s track record shows that he was a quantifiably bad coach. Therefore the decisions he made, were open for criticism at any moment until he could prove otherwise.

[5DollarPitcher]

Letting a 26 point lead dwindle in a game that was still never in doubt was a minor annoyance.

Minor annoyance I can allow. But the gnashing of teeth over this doesn’t seem to qualify under minor annoyance.

Is it possible that maybe, just maybe, the strategy will pay future dividends that can’t be quantified?

[panda]

Grand scheme of things will it make a large difference, probably not. Missed opportunity would probably be the words I would describe it as, when you have the chance to step on a teams throat and kick them when they’re down you have to take it. In approximately 1/35 of our pre ncaa tourney net calculations, we didn’t seize that chance. Guess that just means we’ll have to blow out Creighton.

I do think there is a significant human element involved that is disregarded by some of you.

Shaka has talked about his players taking ownership in the program and on the court strategy. We saw that play out against Georgetown. I think there’s also an element as I said, to giving playing time to younger guys to keep morale up, work out different game situations and lineups to prepare for future games/post season.

I believe the human element of this scenario is far more important than potentially, hopefully winning by a mystery amount to possibly, maybe moving up an unspecified amount of places.

But I do agree, missed opportunity is a much more apt description than biggest coaching mistake of the season.

[Uncle Rico]

Yes

[tower912]

You’re still not getting it, as usual.

Shaka’s track record thus far shows that he is a quantifiably good coach. Therefore the decisions he makes, so long as they don’t directly lose us a game, shouldn’t be criticized by Daryl Morey wannabes.

Wojo’s track record shows that he was a quantifiably bad coach. Therefore the decisions he made, were open for criticism at any moment until he could prove otherwise.

Dude, you still don't get it.   I prefer Shaka. I am enjoying the heck out of this season. 

Compare Shaka's record at Texas to Wojo's record.    The same criticisms this board levelled at Wojo were directed at Shaka there.   

I criticized Crean.  I criticized Buzz.  I criticized Wojo.   I can't remember criticizing Shaka so far.   I defended the Creighton end game decision.   I couldn't care less about only winning by 13.   I don't bet and I don't obsess about the NET. 

[We R Final Four]

I analyze them the same.  The same way I did Crean, the same way I did Buzz.   Follow?

Shaka actually is held to a different standard as the NET wasn't always a thing.   Once upon a time,  a 13 point win was good enough.   Letting a 26 point lead dwindle in a game that was still never in doubt was a minor annoyance.

So what Im understanding is if we would have been up ~8 points the majority of the game………extended the lead late and won by 13 we would have been in a better position in the NET than going up by 26, playing younger inexperienced players and winning by 13. It seems all 13 point wins are not the same. Is that true?

PS—Brew clarified this in another thread.

[Boston Warrior]

My point is if net rankings were everything, Marquette would be the last 8 seed today at 32. Bpi or espn would have us 12 seed or bubble. The lead that squandered at Georgetown is unfortunate but is understood at the committee level. Most folks have us between 5 and 7, so better than the net.
Beat creighton and finish strong!

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I think there is plenty of room for a middle ground between the extremes of coaching to metrics and not paying attention to metrics at all.

In this day and age, you need a coach who understands metrics including how NET ratings are important for NCAA tournament selection and seeding.  While Ners is right that match-ups matter, your path to success in the NCAAs is easier the higher your seed.  So yeah, on average your seed line matters.  Does anyone really think this isn't important?  This doesn't make anyone Daryl Morey wannabees or some such nonsense.

That being said, not every coaching decision is about metrics.  I have no idea what Shaka's motivations were when he made the lineup decision he did.  Was he rewarding effort in practice?  Was he upset about the starting line up's effort?  Most importantly, knowing what he knows now, would he make the same decision?

I think its important to say that, while metrics are of course important, not every decision is based on them.  There are subjective, emotional decisions that need to be made when coaching a team too.

[Dr. Blackheart]

Georgetown jumped from 213 to 197 when they were blown out by double digits by MU. Up next is Nova, DePaul, UCONN, Seton Hall and Xavier. Because of their cupcake OOC schedule and the long COVID layoff, Georgetown will continue to rise in the rankings as their SOS will mathematically improve despite losing all five. Win one, and even better (add in the BET). Net, NET, MU's bad double digit win adjusted efficiency margin coaching error will wind up be inconsequential.

That loss to Butler on the other hand...

[We R Final Four]

Team larg lead   win margin    delta
GT.       26.          11.             -15
SH.       21.          10.             -11
DeP.      19.          11.             -8
——————————————————
        Larg deficit loss marg
Crei.      17.         0 (-6 ).        +17
But.      21.          6.               +15
Ucla.     23.          11.             +12
Bonn.    27.          16.             +11
Uw.       23.           13.            +10.

With a lot of focus on the effect of not maintaining a 26 point lead  v GT i went back and looked at other games this season.
We have given up big leads as well as fought back from large deficits. Is UCLAscoop complaining that they should have beaten us by 25+?
The Bonnies might be thinking how didnt we win this one by 30??

Its CBB.

[jfp61]

It's almost as if basketball is a game of runs, and making shots matters.

[We R Final Four]

It's almost as if basketball is a game of runs, and making shots matters.

Shhh.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Team larg lead   win margin    delta
GT.       26.          11.             -15
JKST.    32.          19.             -13
SH.       21.          10.             -11
DeP.      19.          11.             -8
——————————————————
        Larg deficit loss marg
But.      21.          6.               +15
Crei.     17.          6                +13 (2OT)
Ucla.     23.          11.             +12
Bonn.    27.          16.             +11
Uw.       23.           13.            +10.

With a lot of focus on the effect of not maintaining a 26 point lead  v GT i went back and looked at other games this season.
We give up big leads as well as fight back from large deficits. Is UCLAscoop complaining that they should have beaten us by 25+?
The Bonnies might be thinking how didnt we win this one by 30??
We were up 32 points on Jax St and only won by 19. Why didnt we keep the throttle down and extend that lead to 40?
Its CBB.

Except the point of discussion around the Georgetown game is the lineup that was used for an extended period of time.  I don't recall that being an issue in any of those other examples. 

[We R Final Four]

Without looking im quite sure our starters werent in the game to continue to extend our 32 point lead over Jax St. That was a big lead that we gave up….similar to GT.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

Without looking im quite sure our starters werent in the game to continue to extend our 32 point lead over Jax St. That was a big lead that we gave up….similar to GT.

Except that's not how it happened.

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/game/_/gameId/401372003

[We R Final Four]

Stevie played 20 in jxst, 12 v. GT
EE  12 v jax, 2 v GT
Jop 11 v jax, 8 v GT
Walkons  played in jax game.

There are alot of different ways to not maintain a ~30 point lead for 12+ minutes.

Because we were up by 26 points with 12 min remaining doesn’t mean we would have maintained that margin of victory, regardless of who was playing.