collapse

* Stud of Colorado Game

Tyler Kolek

21 points, 5 rebounds,
11 assists, 1 steal,
40 minutes

2023-24 Season SoG Tally
Kolek11
Ighodaro6
Jones, K.6
Mitchell2
Jones, S.1
Joplin1

'22-23
'21-22 * '20-21 * '19-20
'18-19 * '17-18 * '16-17
'15-16 * '14-15 * '13-14
'12-13 * '11-12 * '10-11

* Big East Standings

* Recent Posts

2024 NCAA Tournament Thread by mileskishnish72
[Today at 07:11:25 PM]


2024 Transfer Portal by Goose
[Today at 07:05:04 PM]


Sweet 16 presser by Daniel
[Today at 07:04:13 PM]


Where is Marquette? by NickelDimer
[Today at 07:02:50 PM]


10 years after “Done Deal” … It’s Happening! by Judge Smails
[Today at 07:02:27 PM]


Dallas bars tonite by JakeBarnes
[Today at 06:18:19 PM]


2024 Coaching Carousel by the eagle
[Today at 06:05:16 PM]

Please Register - It's FREE!

The absolute only thing required for this FREE registration is a valid e-mail address.  We keep all your information confidential and will NEVER give or sell it to anyone else.
Login to get rid of this box (and ads) , or register NOW!

* Next up: NC State

Marquette
81
Marquette vs

NC State

Date/Time: Mar 29, 2024, 6:09 pm
TV: CBS
Schedule for 2023-24
Colorado
77

Author Topic: Fouling up 3. Again  (Read 7041 times)

MUHoopsFan2

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 665
Re: Fouling up 3. Again
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2022, 01:22:18 AM »
They played a great 4:30 of overtime.

Lewis took an awful jumpshot up 3 points with 36 left in 1OT and clanked it.  The screen and roll with Kolek and Oso was working so well and they went away from it.

Following that clank by Lewis, O'Connell clanked a 3 of his own and Morsell failed to get the rebound and fouled O'Connell in the process. Brutal sequence and even after all that Marquette still should've won. One of the worst collapses I can recall a Marquette team having.

All a part of learning how to win. A young team has to do stupid things to learn not to do them.
Lewis doesn't take bad shots on this team.

Kolek won't shoot so he did. He has as good a touch now as any player in the game. You are just saying that because he missed it. That was a good shot. It just did not go in.


MUHoopsFan2

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 665
Re: Fouling up 3. Again
« Reply #26 on: January 02, 2022, 01:29:41 AM »
It's expressly against the rules to foul a guy away from the ball. It's putting a lot of trust in a ref to not call an intentional there. And there was no need to do something that risky in this situation, as there was a perfect opportunity to foul the guy with the ball.

As you know from our past discussions, I am a "take each case on its own merits" guy. In this particular case, I was calling for us to foul, especially as soon as O'Connell put the ball on the floor.

In the end, I'm disappointed but not as outraged as some are. As I said in a different thread, I've noticed lots of coaches not fouling up 3 this season.
It's simply the wrong players were on the floor, they missed fouling TWICE up by 3 late...and why were Prosper and Lewis down in the paint away from the ball on that possession!?

You needed length on that defensive stand to win the game. This was on the coach this time.

Oso, Lewis and Prosper, and Greg should have been in the game and on top guarding the 3 and the guards guarding the paint. The highlights omit the 3 that sent us into the first OT so I do not recall who was on the floor then or if it was out of a timeout.

But forget the rebound or the two points...all 5 guys should have been at the 3pt line and given up the layup in that situation.

MUHoopsFan2

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 665
Re: Fouling up 3. Again
« Reply #27 on: January 02, 2022, 01:34:56 AM »
Haha. Overtime? Whatever poor shots that were selected put us in a spot to be up by 3 with 3 seconds left. That team wins 90+% of games in that situation. Continue to make all the excuses you need.
Exactly...it had nothing to do with bad shots.

But they will need Kolek to be more aggressive shooting the ball. It was that defensive stance that lost it and the players he had on the floor and the positions they were in knowing Creighton is a 3pt shooting team.

He has his longest guys under the basket! FOR WHAT?? As many long-limbed stretch players as he had you put them all up at the 3pt line...have the smaller guys guard the hoop. Who cares about a 2pt basket at that stage.

You had to know they would take the 3pt shot there. They miss, MU wins a great game.

MUHoopsFan2

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 665
Re: Fouling up 3. Again
« Reply #28 on: January 02, 2022, 01:41:39 AM »
You can foul a guy off the ball. Your scenario doesn’t have to foul the potential shooter. A team can take the shooter out of the equation. Not that difficult.
It has NOTHING TO DO with the foul....You all keep bringing up the foul. Forge that. To me, it was about the look you gave them and of the position and the length of the players you had on the floor and where they were!

I said that a thousand times...I cannot find that end of the gameplay of regulation so I can look at it closely. All highlights clipped that play out of the highlights! Why!?

I wanted to know if that was out of a timeout or not when Webster I think the kid's name is, hit that 3 to send it into OT? If it was, the wrong guys were on the floor and out of position for that one possession. Both teams let each other off the hook. But it was a great college game.

That would have been a BIG WIN...


« Last Edit: January 02, 2022, 01:44:32 AM by MUHoopsFan2 »

GoldenEagles03

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3630
Re: Fouling up 3. Again
« Reply #29 on: January 02, 2022, 03:34:10 AM »
Lewis doesn't take bad shots on this team.

Kolek won't shoot so he did. He has as good a touch now as any player in the game. You are just saying that because he missed it. That was a good shot. It just did not go in.

I hope you're kidding. Justin Lewis takes a ton of bad shots. He is shooting 41% from the field. 25% from 3.

He's a great player but he has to be better. He's gonna have to get a whole lot better.
VIOLENCE!

TAMU, Knower of Ball

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22058
  • Meat Eater certified
Re: Fouling up 3. Again
« Reply #30 on: January 02, 2022, 04:55:29 PM »
I'm not in the you always foul up 3 camp. But when there's 3.3 seconds left,  you should be able to communicate to your team what situation to foul in and what situation not to foul in. Their best three point shooter dribbling away from the basket? You foul every time.

You also make sure your guys are guarding the three point line,  not chasing guys in the post.

It was not THE reason we lost,  but we would of won if Shaka made the right call there.
TAMU

I do know, Newsie is right on you knowing ball.


We R Final Four

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 6585
Re: Fouling up 3. Again
« Reply #31 on: January 02, 2022, 05:16:07 PM »
I’ve heard this mentioned on here several times since the game ended. Who was chasing guys in the post?
J Lew was guarding his guy…..and when the ball was inbounded he knew there wasn’t enough time for a pass.

**won’t allow me to add pic of our 4 guys defending the 3 line and J Lew in the lane….because a pass to his man (also on the 3 point line) wasn’t going to happen.
« Last Edit: January 02, 2022, 05:19:27 PM by We R Final Four »

tower912

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 23350
Re: Fouling up 3. Again
« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2022, 06:01:18 PM »
One thing that really hasn't been discussed.    The play was reviewed.    Kolek kind of flops.    It was already clear that MU wasn't fouling up to that point, as they had Creighton pinned on the sidelines with less than 4 seconds to play and not going toward the basket.     A lot of moving pieces.    Draw up an in-bounds play in case the call stands.    Set up defensive assignments in case it is reversed.   If there had been more time after the call was reversed, what would have the defensive call have been?
 
 


 
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

panda

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3428
Re: Fouling up 3. Again
« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2022, 07:07:10 PM »
Louisville up 3 doesn’t foul and win. Chris Mack = genius.

79Warrior

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 4080
Re: Fouling up 3. Again
« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2022, 07:15:08 PM »
Louisville up 3 doesn’t foul and win. Chris Mack = genius.

Yep. Just think if this was the @Creighton game a few years ago when MU scored 5 in last two seconds to tie game. This board would have gone nuts.

The Sultan of Semantics

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 11519
  • "Private message me coward" - panda
Re: Fouling up 3. Again
« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2022, 07:22:46 PM »
Yep. Just think if this was the @Creighton game a few years ago when MU scored 5 in last two seconds to tie game. This board would have gone nuts.

The Creighton inbounder could have tossed the ball to the Warrior guarding him and they still would have won.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

We R Final Four

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 6585
Re: Fouling up 3. Again
« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2022, 07:33:04 PM »
Thank you Chartouny for missing your first wide open layup. Play of the game.
With more time on the clock we would have fouled and lost.

wisblue

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1311
Re: Fouling up 3. Again
« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2022, 07:59:02 PM »
I'm not in the you always foul up 3 camp. But when there's 3.3 seconds left,  you should be able to communicate to your team what situation to foul in and what situation not to foul in. Their best three point shooter dribbling away from the basket? You foul every time.

You also make sure your guys are guarding the three point line,  not chasing guys in the post.

It was not THE reason we lost,  but we would of won if Shaka made the right call there.

This has always been my opinion too.

Whether or not to foul up by 3 is heavily dependent on the specific situation, and I’m often in the opposite site of the argument when there is more time left and no timeout to make sure the defense knows what to do.

But yesterday was one where I thought fouling was the right thing to do.

tower912

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 23350
Re: Fouling up 3. Again
« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2022, 08:09:18 PM »
Penn St doesn't foul up 3.  IU got two looks.  Genius.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

MU82

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22729
Re: Fouling up 3. Again
« Reply #39 on: January 02, 2022, 09:00:00 PM »
I didn’t see either the Penn State or Louisville situations, and I have no idea if they were even remotely similar to ours. Not that it matters- in OUR situation, Shaka shoulda fouled.

But FWIW, it does seem that fewer coaches are automatically fouling up 3 this season. I hope kenpom or somebody is doing some kind of study on it.
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

lostpassword

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 162
Re: Fouling up 3. Again
« Reply #40 on: January 02, 2022, 11:53:31 PM »
Penn St doesn't foul up 3.  IU got two looks.  Genius.

If we can trust the ESPN play by play, here's some context. 

Penn State:
13s left, first 3 taken with 5s

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/playbyplay/_/gameId/401364356

Louisville:
8s left, 3 taken with 2s.

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/playbyplay/_/gameId/401369900

I find both of these less clear cut than 3.3s compounded by catch-and-dribble vs. catch-and-shoot.  Penn State and Louisville very well made the best decisions today.  That doesn't mean Shaka/MU shouldn't have fouled.

wisblue

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1311
Re: Fouling up 3. Again
« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2022, 06:53:21 AM »
IMHO it is quite different trying to foul up 3 when the other team has possession of the ball with in a live ball situation in the front court with 5 or more seconds left.

In those situations there’s a lot more risk that the guy with the ball can anticipate the foul and draw 3 FTs or, even worse, get fouled while heaving in a desperation shot. And, if you foul too early, there’s enough time for other things to happen.

Sunday to me was a classic opportunity to plan for and execute a foul with only 3 seconds left and little or no risk of committing a shooting foul.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2022, 04:56:44 PM by wisblue »

brewcity77

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 26360
  • Warning-This poster may trigger thin skinned users
    • Cracked Sidewalks
Re: Fouling up 3. Again
« Reply #42 on: January 03, 2022, 07:07:01 AM »
The studies I've seen regarding fouling up three looks at giving the foul between 5-12 seconds. At 3.3 it's a no-brainer. Shaka made a mistake. I'm still bullish on the staff and the long term outlook, but that was a mistake and if this team can rally to the bubble, not fouling with 3.3 seconds (which is radically different than 13, 8, or even 5) may be the difference between the NCAA and NIT, or NIT and no postseason at all.
This space reserved for a 2024 National Championship celebration banner.

Jay Bee

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 9022
Re: Fouling up 3. Again
« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2022, 10:34:23 AM »
No problem with not fouling as a plan in that situation, but would have told the guys to tackle if someone got loose

I thought Oso had an opportunity to grab long before the shot went up and should have because AO was getting loose
Thanks for ruining summer, Canada.

Its DJOver

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3004
Re: Fouling up 3. Again
« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2022, 11:42:46 AM »
I’ve always said that it depends on personnel. We’re still not a good rebounding team and we have no one shooting above 85% from the line ourselves (should the game even get extended that long). Throw in the side OB rather than the full length, and I’m okay with the decision. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. It’s a learning experience, so as long as we learn from it it’s not the end of the world.

GooooMarquette

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 9489
  • We got this.
Re: Fouling up 3. Again
« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2022, 12:50:29 PM »
I didn’t see either the Penn State or Louisville situations, and I have no idea if they were even remotely similar to ours. Not that it matters- in OUR situation, Shaka shoulda fouled.

But FWIW, it does seem that fewer coaches are automatically fouling up 3 this season. I hope kenpom or somebody is doing some kind of study on it.


Yep. It's not as if every situation is identical. You have to factor location on court, time left at the time of inbound and other things. In our game, Shaka whiffed. So be it. He's still a good coach and I'm happy he's at MU. But he whiffed on that one...

MUINGB

  • Starter
  • ***
  • Posts: 104
Re: Fouling up 3. Again
« Reply #46 on: January 03, 2022, 01:26:11 PM »
Thanks MU 82, great information,,,,,,,  end of that discussion.

MU82

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 22729
Re: Fouling up 3. Again
« Reply #47 on: January 13, 2022, 11:08:22 PM »
Oregon coach Dana Altman did not foul UCLA up 3 tonight.

Juzang missed a pretty decent look, and Oregon won at Pauley.
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

ATWizJr

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2374
Re: Fouling up 3. Again
« Reply #48 on: January 14, 2022, 02:33:21 AM »
Except that Harvard study (and I believe KenPom's also well) is misleading, in that it includes teams that fouled on three-point shots in the "chose to foul" group. Obviously no one here is suggesting Marquette should have fouled a shooter.
Take away those situations, and foul before the shot is the clear winner.

ATWizJr

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 2374
Re: Fouling up 3. Again
« Reply #49 on: January 14, 2022, 02:34:12 AM »
Except that Harvard study (and I believe KenPom's also well) is misleading, in that it includes teams that fouled on three-point shots in the "chose to foul" group. Obviously no one here is suggesting Marquette should have fouled a shooter.
Take away those situations, and foul before the shot is the clear winner.
Clearly.

 

feedback