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Author Topic: 2022 MLB Thread  (Read 1985 times)

DegenerateDish

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2022 MLB Thread
« on: November 28, 2021, 09:59:42 PM »
Figured I’d get this started on a wild day in MLB free agency that may end with Scherzer taking 3/120 from the Mets.

GB Warrior

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #1 on: November 28, 2021, 10:44:23 PM »
Do the Mets think they'll get the MLBPA to take a lesser deal if Scherzer (an executive committee rep) hits it big?

MU82

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #2 on: November 28, 2021, 11:03:01 PM »
At least the MLBPA can't accuse the owners of collusion this time.
“A lot of the stuff that we believe in and that I’ve always believed in — it takes time. It’s not a quick fix. It’s not an instant-gratification thing. It’s a drip-by-drip process.”

-- Shaka Smart, in The Athletic, 10/13/21

MUBurrow

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #3 on: November 29, 2021, 08:58:18 AM »
How do you get one of those reputations like Eppler or Dombrowksi where you just get to come in after "rebuilds" and spend like a drunken sailor? Sweet gigs.

MU82

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2021, 04:56:12 PM »
A billion bucks for a 50-year-old pitcher who couldn’t help his team in the NLCS because his arm was dead.

Sounds like it’s time for the owners to cry poor again.
“A lot of the stuff that we believe in and that I’ve always believed in — it takes time. It’s not a quick fix. It’s not an instant-gratification thing. It’s a drip-by-drip process.”

-- Shaka Smart, in The Athletic, 10/13/21

BLM

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2021, 08:16:37 AM »
The city of Detroit just got a whole lot more exciting.
Black Lives Matter

MU82

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2021, 09:20:36 AM »
The city of Detroit just got a whole lot more exciting.

Yep ... it's now the taggiest, slidiest town in all of MLB!
“A lot of the stuff that we believe in and that I’ve always believed in — it takes time. It’s not a quick fix. It’s not an instant-gratification thing. It’s a drip-by-drip process.”

-- Shaka Smart, in The Athletic, 10/13/21

tower912

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2021, 09:42:36 AM »
I am pleased.   I thought Correa could have gotten them to 88 wins.  I think a healthy Baez and continued progress with their youth gets them to 83 ish
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DegenerateDish

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #8 on: November 30, 2021, 09:47:50 AM »
That Baez contract is awful, that's the worst signing by any team this offseason thus far. The Tigers are drunk with the bad contracts they've been handing out.

tower912

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #9 on: November 30, 2021, 10:07:57 AM »
All the contracts are awful.  The Tigers were down to Cabrera's  Almost everybody else was very reasonable.   So, setting that aside....

Detroit went 77-85 last year with a 3-18 streak in late April into May.   They started at least 5 guys at shortstop that I can remember without research.   They started 5 different catchers that I can remember without research.   They had a cobbled together rotation with a few rookies in innings restrictions.

So they have gotten a starting catcher, a starting shortstop, and a quality, innings eating lefty.   Their shopping list may include another durable starter, but that is it.   If Hinch can continue to bring along the young guys and the team stays healthy-ish, I can easily see 83-85 wins.   And Avila has done a nice job of restocking the farm system after Dombrowski stripped it.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

JWags85

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2021, 11:15:41 AM »
Might be a bad deal but I knew Baez would get more than $20MM+.

That Seager deal is absolutely monstrous. But that’s what the Rangers do.  Good thing he got his ring so now he’ll go make a fortune playing on mediocre teams in Arlington as seems to be their MO
« Last Edit: November 30, 2021, 11:18:33 AM by JWags85 »

tower912

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2021, 11:17:59 AM »
It is the market rate.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

MU82

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2021, 12:32:05 PM »
All the contracts are awful.  The Tigers were down to Cabrera's  Almost everybody else was very reasonable.   So, setting that aside....

Detroit went 77-85 last year with a 3-18 streak in late April into May.   They started at least 5 guys at shortstop that I can remember without research.   They started 5 different catchers that I can remember without research.   They had a cobbled together rotation with a few rookies in innings restrictions.

So they have gotten a starting catcher, a starting shortstop, and a quality, innings eating lefty.   Their shopping list may include another durable starter, but that is it.   If Hinch can continue to bring along the young guys and the team stays healthy-ish, I can easily see 83-85 wins.   And Avila has done a nice job of restocking the farm system after Dombrowski stripped it.

Sounds like you need to borrow some excellent research reports from 9-9-9!

Seriously, I find myself rooting for the Tigers. All Detroit teams have been down for so long, and they have good fans who deserve more.
“A lot of the stuff that we believe in and that I’ve always believed in — it takes time. It’s not a quick fix. It’s not an instant-gratification thing. It’s a drip-by-drip process.”

-- Shaka Smart, in The Athletic, 10/13/21

ZiggysFryBoy

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2021, 02:43:38 PM »
Not MLB related, but if you have a kid that plays baseball, kids are wearing their jerseys to school on Friday, Dec 3rd, to honor Jackson Sparks, the 8 year old that was killed in Waukesha.  He and his brother played for the Waukesha Blazers, a community based club.  Please help spread the word in the baseball community.

JWags85

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2021, 06:07:47 PM »
Marcus Stroman to the Cubs.  Rumors around 5 years in the $110-120MM range.  Not sure what the Cubs vision is but I like Stroman a lot.  Came off a really nice year where he got very little support in his starts and was unlucky.

MUBurrow

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2021, 06:22:27 PM »
Marcus Stroman to the Cubs.  Rumors around 5 years in the $110-120MM range.  Not sure what the Cubs vision is but I like Stroman a lot.  Came off a really nice year where he got very little support in his starts and was unlucky.

Nothing wrong with Stroman but that would make his deal richer than Ray’s and Gausman’s which surprises me a bit. But Stroman has a good chance for better returns on that investment in the back half of the deal.

JWags85

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2021, 06:32:40 PM »
Nothing wrong with Stroman but that would make his deal richer than Ray’s and Gausman’s which surprises me a bit. But Stroman has a good chance for better returns on that investment in the back half of the deal.

I’d imagine it’s probably right equal or in line with them.  Which seems about right.  They had a bit more accolades in 2021 than Stroman but I think he’s pretty comparable

Jockey

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2021, 10:35:27 PM »
Marcus Stroman to the Cubs.  Rumors around 5 years in the $110-120MM range.  Not sure what the Cubs vision is but I like Stroman a lot.  Came off a really nice year where he got very little support in his starts and was unlucky.

Agree. I like Stroman the best of the trio.

GB Warrior

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2021, 10:41:53 PM »
Marcus Stroman to the Cubs.  Rumors around 5 years in the $110-120MM range.  Not sure what the Cubs vision is but I like Stroman a lot.  Came off a really nice year where he got very little support in his starts and was unlucky.

He's a very good fit for Wrigley too. This is a good signing for them if the value is what you've cited.

BLM

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2021, 11:02:25 PM »
Thank you, Red Sox?
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MUBurrow

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #20 on: December 01, 2021, 11:42:27 PM »
Thank you, Red Sox?

The prospects aren't nothing, but it opens up $2MM this year, and if Renfroe has another good year the Brewers should have to pay him about what they would have had to pay JBJ not to play for them.

DegenerateDish

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #21 on: December 02, 2021, 12:00:32 AM »
The prospects aren't nothing, but it opens up $2MM this year, and if Renfroe has another good year the Brewers should have to pay him about what they would have had to pay JBJ not to play for them.

Agreed, seemed like a very reasonable trade for both sides. Buying the two decent prospects for the cost of Bradley makes sense. Renfroe should do well in Milwaukee at a reasonable price in 2022, and then we’ll see if they tender him in 2023 knowing it’ll cost above $10 mil.

HouWarrior

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #22 on: December 02, 2021, 12:59:34 AM »
The MLB lockout took effect a few minutes ago

...but somehow this thread is not locked too
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MU82

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #23 on: December 02, 2021, 06:59:58 AM »
Going to AZ in March with my brother and hoping to catch a couple of ST exhibitions, so we'll see if this thing is settled by then. History suggests probably not.

Our trip isn't built around ST, though, so that's good.
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-- Shaka Smart, in The Athletic, 10/13/21

buckchuckler

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #24 on: December 02, 2021, 08:40:26 AM »
I’d imagine it’s probably right equal or in line with them.  Which seems about right.  They had a bit more accolades in 2021 than Stroman but I think he’s pretty comparable

Hahah, I like how the Cy Young is a bit more accolades.  Haha.  Its pretty funny, he is comparable in that he isn't really comparable at all, at least to Ray.
Stroman for the most part is pretty consistent.  He isn't going to K a bunch of guys or BB a bunch of guys, but he is going to give you good innings and a pretty good ERA and a chance to win most of the games he pitches. 

Ray gives you a much higher ceiling as a pitcher.  He clearly has the stuff to dominate (as evidenced by winning a Cy Young pitching for the Blue Jays).  But he can also be terrible.  He is going to strike out a ton more guys, and walk a ton more guys.  If he is the guy he was last year then his deal is a great deal.  If he is the guy he was in 2020, its a terrible deal.  If he is the guy he was in 2019, its an overpay, but not quite hideous. 

So in the end, its funny that they are a bit comparable, because their results are so completely different. 
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MUBurrow

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #25 on: December 02, 2021, 09:45:56 AM »
Agreed, seemed like a very reasonable trade for both sides. Buying the two decent prospects for the cost of Bradley makes sense. Renfroe should do well in Milwaukee at a reasonable price in 2022, and then we’ll see if they tender him in 2023 knowing it’ll cost above $10 mil.

Sweet deal for JBJ too. He gets his contract and gets to go back to where he'd rather be anyway. I wonder if the Sox think they can probably get a little more out of him than the Brewers did.  Heck, if he has his typical 3 week Willie Mays run like he's had every season except for 2021, his overall numbers wouldn't look so bad.

JWags85

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #26 on: December 02, 2021, 10:35:52 AM »
Hahah, I like how the Cy Young is a bit more accolades.  Haha.  Its pretty funny, he is comparable in that he isn't really comparable at all, at least to Ray.
Stroman for the most part is pretty consistent.  He isn't going to K a bunch of guys or BB a bunch of guys, but he is going to give you good innings and a pretty good ERA and a chance to win most of the games he pitches. 

Ray gives you a much higher ceiling as a pitcher.  He clearly has the stuff to dominate (as evidenced by winning a Cy Young pitching for the Blue Jays).  But he can also be terrible.  He is going to strike out a ton more guys, and walk a ton more guys.  If he is the guy he was last year then his deal is a great deal.  If he is the guy he was in 2020, its a terrible deal.  If he is the guy he was in 2019, its an overpay, but not quite hideous. 

So in the end, its funny that they are a bit comparable, because their results are so completely different.

I meant a bit collectively cause Gausman was an All Star.  But Stroman had a better season in 2021 than when he was an All Star a few years back as well as when he finished in the top 10 for the Cy Young.

Stroman has a career WAR of 18.1 and a WHIP of 1.26, only 1 season of a WAR under 1.5 since he became a regular starter. 

Ray has a career WAR of 15.1, a WHIP of 1.32, and literally 2 seasons OVER 1.5 WAR, 2021 and 2017.

Stroman has had a better overall career by those metrics and arguably more potential for consistent production over a 5 year period.  Ray had a really good 2021 but he wasn't some unreal world beater.

Gausman for comparison, 16.9 WAR, 1.29 WHIP.

None of these guys are a DeGrom, Kershaw, Verlander, Scherzer type.  But I think they all project pretty similarly over a 5 year span.  Its not like Ray was knocking on the door of Cy Young's before he finally got through.  It was kind of out of nowhere. 

Interestingly, none of the 3 have had any post season experience since their early-mid 20s.

DegenerateDish

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #27 on: December 02, 2021, 10:57:22 AM »
Sweet deal for JBJ too. He gets his contract and gets to go back to where he'd rather be anyway. I wonder if the Sox think they can probably get a little more out of him than the Brewers did.  Heck, if he has his typical 3 week Willie Mays run like he's had every season except for 2021, his overall numbers wouldn't look so bad.

Totally agree with you, JBJ probably will feel a sense of "going home" back to Boston. He's not going to be an All Star, but you're right, the Red Sox most likely value JBJ more than any other team would because they know him.

I think it's a great deal for the Brewers too. Renfroe is exactly the type of player from a production/salary standpoint that fits what they need. I'd rather pay Renfroe $7.5 - $8 mil (whatever final number he'll get in arb) than Avi Garcia at $12 mil (or if they would have given Garcia the QO).

GB Warrior

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #28 on: December 02, 2021, 11:17:46 AM »
Totally agree with you, JBJ probably will feel a sense of "going home" back to Boston. He's not going to be an All Star, but you're right, the Red Sox most likely value JBJ more than any other team would because they know him.

I think it's a great deal for the Brewers too. Renfroe is exactly the type of player from a production/salary standpoint that fits what they need. I'd rather pay Renfroe $7.5 - $8 mil (whatever final number he'll get in arb) than Avi Garcia at $12 mil (or if they would have given Garcia the QO).

This is a win all around. The Brewers realistically saved money from Avi for an equal or better player and dumped JBJs salary. The prospects had a plus skill or two, but either had real question marks, wouldn't help in the near future, or were blocked by other prospects.

Would like to say that the $10M or so that they save could get them another bat, but think it's more likely that growth comes within given the arbitration deals they need to afford.

buckchuckler

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #29 on: December 02, 2021, 11:29:40 AM »
I meant a bit collectively cause Gausman was an All Star.  But Stroman had a better season in 2021 than when he was an All Star a few years back as well as when he finished in the top 10 for the Cy Young.

Stroman has a career WAR of 18.1 and a WHIP of 1.26, only 1 season of a WAR under 1.5 since he became a regular starter. 

Ray has a career WAR of 15.1, a WHIP of 1.32, and literally 2 seasons OVER 1.5 WAR, 2021 and 2017.

Stroman has had a better overall career by those metrics and arguably more potential for consistent production over a 5 year period.  Ray had a really good 2021 but he wasn't some unreal world beater.

Gausman for comparison, 16.9 WAR, 1.29 WHIP.

None of these guys are a DeGrom, Kershaw, Verlander, Scherzer type.  But I think they all project pretty similarly over a 5 year span.  Its not like Ray was knocking on the door of Cy Young's before he finally got through.  It was kind of out of nowhere. 

Interestingly, none of the 3 have had any post season experience since their early-mid 20s.

Yeah, I pretty much agree, which is why I said Stroman is more consistent.  He has clearly been better than Ray over his career to this point.  But what Ray did last season was next level.  If he keeps that up, he could really our perform his contract, and Stroman.   

Of the three, Stroman would have been the last one I wanted, but I also think he is the most likely to deliver what you expect. 
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JWags85

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #30 on: December 02, 2021, 11:53:57 AM »
Yeah, I pretty much agree, which is why I said Stroman is more consistent.  He has clearly been better than Ray over his career to this point.  But what Ray did last season was next level.  If he keeps that up, he could really our perform his contract, and Stroman.   

Of the three, Stroman would have been the last one I wanted, but I also think he is the most likely to deliver what you expect.

Thats fair.  I just don't see any trend or history to support that with Ray.  But we'll see.

CTWarrior

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2021, 12:15:40 PM »
The prospects aren't nothing, but it opens up $2MM this year, and if Renfroe has another good year the Brewers should have to pay him about what they would have had to pay JBJ not to play for them.
As a Red Sox fan, don't love or hate this move.  It was basically buying the two prospects the same way they bought Ottavino last year to get a prospect.  Not much of a fan of either MLB players right now.  Renfroe has an excellent arm but is otherwise a below average outfielder and he is streaky hitter that goes into long slumps.  Having JBJ back allows the Red Sox to move Hernandez back to second and maybe pick up an outfield bat (Schwarber?) for next season.  But that only helps if JBJ can hit at least like a 2nd baseman, and at this point that doesn't seem likely.
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Jockey

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2021, 01:14:22 PM »
Rob Manfred being the same jerk that he always is.

Within minutes of the lockout, all player likenesses were removed from all MLB sites.

jesmu84

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #33 on: December 02, 2021, 01:15:12 PM »
A 7 minute meeting?

No way this season starts before May.

buckchuckler

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #34 on: December 02, 2021, 01:35:56 PM »
Thats fair.  I just don't see any trend or history to support that with Ray.  But we'll see.

Well the history clearly isn't there.  If it was he would have gotten 300 million.  The big difference in him last year was control.  He averaged 2.4 bb/9 after averaging almost 8 last season (and over 4 for his career - if you leave out 20 and 21 -- and 3.9 if you include them.)  The most concerning thing about him last year is that he had an abnormally high strand %.  Other than that, most of his numbers were pretty much in line with the rest of his career. 

It really comes down to control.  If he can limit his BBs to 2-3 per 9, he will be incredible effective.  If he can't, then he will struggle.    I didn't look into his strike %, chase rates, etc, because it isn't worth the time. His strand rate will get worse, it has to, and that will likely lead to more runs.  But K's can cover a lot of warts too.  And he has always gotten plenty of those.

In the seasons where he has had a BB/9 under 4 (still pretty high) he has been over a 3 WAR player (by both fangraphs and bbref).  That's the roll of the dice on him.
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Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #35 on: December 02, 2021, 01:58:28 PM »
Rob Manfred being the same jerk that he always is.

Within minutes of the lockout, all player likenesses were removed from all MLB sites.

I think its because in the absence of a CBA, they aren't allow to use their likeness.  But regardless, this is really such a non-issue.


A 7 minute meeting?

No way this season starts before May.

It's just posturing.  Nothing is going to happen without deadlines. 
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ZiggysFryBoy

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #36 on: December 02, 2021, 07:26:36 PM »
Rob Manfred being the same jerk that he always is.

Within minutes of the lockout, all player likenesses were removed from all MLB sites.

MLB is legally obligated to remove the images in the absence of a CBA.  But just read the headline.

Now, they players that are changing their socials to have just a grey silhouette are funny.

GB Warrior

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #37 on: December 03, 2021, 10:08:47 AM »
The MLB website is very funny to me.

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MU82

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #38 on: December 05, 2021, 06:19:40 PM »
The old-folks committee just put a bunch of guys in the Hall of Fame ...

Six candidates earned election to the National Baseball Hall of Fame on Sunday via the Eras Committee process, it was announced today on MLB Network.

Gil Hodges, Jim Kaat, Minnie Miñoso and Tony Oliva were elected by the Golden Days Era Committee, which considered a 10-person ballot comprised of candidates whose primary contribution to the game came from 1950-69.

Bud Fowler and Buck O’Neil were elected by the Early Baseball Era Committee, which considered a 10-person ballot of candidates whose primary contribution the game came prior to 1950.
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Jockey

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #39 on: December 05, 2021, 08:25:03 PM »

Gil Hodges, Jim Kaat, Minnie Miñoso and Tony Oliva were elected by the Golden Days Era Committee, which considered a 10-person ballot comprised of candidates whose primary contribution to the game came from 1950-69.


I'd take Dick Allen before any of those four - and it wouldn't even be close. 22nd all time OPS+ ahead of guys like Aaron, Mays, Robinson, DiMaggio, and Thomas.

Lennys Tap

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #40 on: December 05, 2021, 08:37:06 PM »
The old-folks committee just put a bunch of guys in the Hall of Fame ...

Six candidates earned election to the National Baseball Hall of Fame on Sunday via the Eras Committee process, it was announced today on MLB Network.

Gil Hodges, Jim Kaat, Minnie Miñoso and Tony Oliva were elected by the Golden Days Era Committee, which considered a 10-person ballot comprised of candidates whose primary contribution to the game came from 1950-69.

Bud Fowler and Buck O’Neil were elected by the Early Baseball Era Committee, which considered a 10-person ballot of candidates whose primary contribution the game came prior to 1950.


Saturnino Orestes (Minnie) Minoso was my favorite player growing up. I wore #9 at every opportunity in all sports because of him.

I was out of college and not quite as star struck when Dick Allen (who came up 1 vote short) joined the Sox - but he remains #2 on my all time list.

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2021, 12:53:01 PM »
The old-folks committee just put a bunch of guys in the Hall of Fame ...

Six candidates earned election to the National Baseball Hall of Fame on Sunday via the Eras Committee process, it was announced today on MLB Network.

Gil Hodges, Jim Kaat, Minnie Miñoso and Tony Oliva were elected by the Golden Days Era Committee, which considered a 10-person ballot comprised of candidates whose primary contribution to the game came from 1950-69.

Bud Fowler and Buck O’Neil were elected by the Early Baseball Era Committee, which considered a 10-person ballot of candidates whose primary contribution the game came prior to 1950.


I was rooting for Minoso, Allen and O'Neil. 

Hodges and O'Neil are of an interesting type that doesn't get recognized by the Hall too much.  Guys who were very good but not quite Hall of Fame players who made other contributions (manager of the 69 Mets for Hodges, Negro Leagues Manager, first black MLB coach and scout and all-around ambassador for the game for O'Neil).  I was rooting for O'Neil just because of Ken Burns documentary and everything I've read about him.  He seems to be a genuinely wonderful guy.

It is just terrible that Minoso and O'Neil, who lived to be 89 and 95, respectively, got elected after they passed away and couldn't enjoy their election.  Minoso missed a few MLB seasons on the front end of his career due to segregation and that may have cost him an earlier election.

Happy for Kaat and Oliva that they will get to enjoy being HOFers while still here on Earth.  Both border line guys (Oliva because of shortened career due to knees and Kaat being more of a complier than a great pitcher in his peak), but not bad selections and I am happy for them.

Allen was hurt by playing in a pitcher dominated era that make his numbers look less impressive than they actually were, coupled with a relatively short career.  I thought for sure he was going in this year.
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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #42 on: December 07, 2021, 02:08:02 PM »
I was rooting for Minoso, Allen and O'Neil. 

Hodges and O'Neil are of an interesting type that doesn't get recognized by the Hall too much.  Guys who were very good but not quite Hall of Fame players who made other contributions (manager of the 69 Mets for Hodges, Negro Leagues Manager, first black MLB coach and scout and all-around ambassador for the game for O'Neil).  I was rooting for O'Neil just because of Ken Burns documentary and everything I've read about him.  He seems to be a genuinely wonderful guy.

It is just terrible that Minoso and O'Neil, who lived to be 89 and 95, respectively, got elected after they passed away and couldn't enjoy their election.  Minoso missed a few MLB seasons on the front end of his career due to segregation and that may have cost him an earlier election.

Happy for Kaat and Oliva that they will get to enjoy being HOFers while still here on Earth.  Both border line guys (Oliva because of shortened career due to knees and Kaat being more of a complier than a great pitcher in his peak), but not bad selections and I am happy for them.

Allen was hurt by playing in a pitcher dominated era that make his numbers look less impressive than they actually were, coupled with a relatively short career.  I thought for sure he was going in this year.

Buck O'neill was fantastic in the Ken Burns series.

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2021, 04:28:36 PM »
I think its because in the absence of a CBA, they aren't allow to use their likeness.  But regardless, this is really such a non-issue.


It's just posturing.  Nothing is going to happen without deadlines.

The players have been scrubbed from the league’s website and content ecosystem. Their headshots were removed from rosters, their highlights hidden, their names wiped from promotional schedules. Team social media accounts quieted and ceased referencing players at all; MLB Network and MLB.com employees were instructed to mostly avoid mentioning active 40-man players’ names on air or in articles for the duration of the lockout.


You're absolutely right that it is posturing - but, it is just dumb. Eventually their product will be back on the field and they are going to want fans to care - even if those in Manfred's office don't.

I think this highlights the way the Commissioner's has changed over the years (mostly driven by Bud Selig). Whereas the Office used to be concerned about the "good/integrity of the game", it is now just the owner's labor negotiator and little else other than the punishment arm of the league.

https://theathletic.com/3002495/2021/12/07/on-mlb-owned-media-the-players-now-barely-exist-whats-behind-that-decision/

From the article:
"In maintaining their stance, MLB will try not to use players’ names or likenesses for promotional or commercial purposes during the lockout, the league said. Yet, as of Monday, MLB continued to sell player jerseys, with player names and numbers, through its websites."


They call it principle. They are lying - it is merely $$$$$.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2021, 04:32:59 PM by Jockey »

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2021, 07:42:44 PM »
They can’t use the player’s likenesses in the absence of a CBA. 

And as for the commissioner being an extension of the owners. I mean…no sh*t. That’s been the case for decades. They hired him. 
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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #45 on: December 07, 2021, 08:07:11 PM »
Buck O'neill was fantastic in the Ken Burns series.

I always enjoyed his story about seeing Babe Ruth hit a ball and hearing a special unique sound, and then hearing that same sound when he saw Josh Gibson, and then not hearing that sound again for many many years until he saw Bo Jackson.
If you ever saw about Jackson play baseball live and in person, you knew exactly what he was talking about. Not to mention Jackson's skills defensivly -greatest arm i ever saw.

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #46 on: January 03, 2022, 05:58:32 PM »

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #47 on: January 03, 2022, 06:02:11 PM »

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #48 on: January 12, 2022, 10:46:26 AM »
Jon Lester, a real good pitcher with some Hall bonafides, officially retires.

https://theathletic.com/news/former-cubs-red-sox-pitcher-jon-lester-retires-with-200-wins-3-world-series-rings/hJFtIofIJeQl/?source=dailyemail&campaign=601983

Jon Lester, a three-time World Series champion with the Cubs and Red Sox, a 200-game winner and one of the best free-agent signings in Chicago sports history, announced his retirement Wednesday on ESPN.com.

Known for his consistency and composure in the biggest games and biggest markets, Lester made 30-plus starts in 12 consecutive seasons between 2008 and 2019. Lester posted a 2.51 ERA in 154 career postseason innings, cementing his reputation as one of the best big-game pitchers from his era and making a case for serious Hall of Fame consideration.

Lester, who turned 38 last week, had signaled that the 2021 season would very likely be his last in the majors. Winning his 200th game — in a Cardinals uniform after a midseason trade from the Nationals — checked off one of his career goals.

“It’s kind of run its course,” Lester told ESPN’s Jesse Rogers. “It’s getting harder for me physically. The little things that come up throughout the year turned into bigger things that hinder your performance.

“I’d like to think I’m a halfway decent self-evaluator. I don’t want someone else telling me I can’t do this anymore. I want to be able to hand my jersey over and say, ‘Thank you, it’s been fun.’ That's probably the biggest deciding factor.”
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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #49 on: January 12, 2022, 01:24:19 PM »
Buck O'neill was fantastic in the Ken Burns series.

Ah Ken Burns' series "Baseball, which only exists in New York City and maybe Boston and begrudgingly LA and San Francisco but only for purposes of examining how it affected baseball in New York City."

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #50 on: January 12, 2022, 01:43:44 PM »
Jon Lester, a real good pitcher with some Hall bonafides, officially retires.

https://theathletic.com/news/former-cubs-red-sox-pitcher-jon-lester-retires-with-200-wins-3-world-series-rings/hJFtIofIJeQl/?source=dailyemail&campaign=601983

Jon Lester, a three-time World Series champion with the Cubs and Red Sox, a 200-game winner and one of the best free-agent signings in Chicago sports history, announced his retirement Wednesday on ESPN.com.

Known for his consistency and composure in the biggest games and biggest markets, Lester made 30-plus starts in 12 consecutive seasons between 2008 and 2019. Lester posted a 2.51 ERA in 154 career postseason innings, cementing his reputation as one of the best big-game pitchers from his era and making a case for serious Hall of Fame consideration.

Lester, who turned 38 last week, had signaled that the 2021 season would very likely be his last in the majors. Winning his 200th game — in a Cardinals uniform after a midseason trade from the Nationals — checked off one of his career goals.

“It’s kind of run its course,” Lester told ESPN’s Jesse Rogers. “It’s getting harder for me physically. The little things that come up throughout the year turned into bigger things that hinder your performance.

“I’d like to think I’m a halfway decent self-evaluator. I don’t want someone else telling me I can’t do this anymore. I want to be able to hand my jersey over and say, ‘Thank you, it’s been fun.’ That's probably the biggest deciding factor.”





Sew kin, yea orr nay on da Hall, hey?
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jficke13

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #51 on: January 12, 2022, 02:20:19 PM »
Also the lockout is leading to funny/sad promotional nonsense. The Brewers blasted out their calendar of bobblehead giveaways, listing after each date "Player Bobblehead."

So, so dumb.

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #52 on: January 12, 2022, 02:27:40 PM »
Also the lockout is leading to funny/sad promotional nonsense. The Brewers blasted out their calendar of bobblehead giveaways, listing after each date "Player Bobblehead."

So, so dumb.

Brewers also post about the first thing you'd say when you get back to AmFam field.

About 85% of the responses mentioned Miller Park.  Free marketing for Miller Brewing.  🤣

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #53 on: January 12, 2022, 05:35:11 PM »
Also the lockout is leading to funny/sad promotional nonsense. The Brewers blasted out their calendar of bobblehead giveaways, listing after each date "Player Bobblehead."

So, so dumb.

I want a 'blank avatar' bobblehead!

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #54 on: January 12, 2022, 09:41:18 PM »



Sew kin, yea orr nay on da Hall, hey?

Borderline case. Probably not right away, but maybe down the line. Postseason success will be a big draw for some voters.
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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #55 on: January 12, 2022, 10:03:02 PM »



Sew kin, yea orr nay on da Hall, hey?

Nay

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #56 on: January 12, 2022, 10:45:22 PM »
Borderline case. Probably not right away, but maybe down the line. Postseason success will be a big draw for some voters.

Agreed. Love Lester.  Good dude, tide turning signing for the Cubs and critical component to that title, but he’s very much Hall of Very Good for me.

Workhorse, really reliable in the playoffs on multiple teams, big game pitcher, but I don’t know if there was ever a sustained period where he was a top 5 or top 8 pitcher year after year

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #57 on: January 13, 2022, 12:01:10 AM »
Borderline case. Probably not right away, but maybe down the line. Postseason success will be a big draw for some voters.

He was as good as Jack Morris, so he probably will get in. Although neither should be members.

JWags85

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #58 on: January 13, 2022, 12:46:44 AM »
He was as good as Jack Morris, so he probably will get in. Although neither should be members.

Idk, Jack Morris lead MLB in wins twice and SOs once. Lester only led the NL in wins once.

Morris also finished top 5 in the Cy Young 5 times to Lester’s 3.  Not including a couple other top 10s.

I don’t think either should be in personally but I’d still give Morris the nod

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #59 on: January 13, 2022, 03:25:02 AM »
Idk, Jack Morris lead MLB in wins twice and SOs once. Lester only led the NL in wins once.

Morris also finished top 5 in the Cy Young 5 times to Lester’s 3.  Not including a couple other top 10s.

I don’t think either should be in personally but I’d still give Morris the nod

Do people still care about a stat so meaningless you could receive a W after giving up 9 runs, and recirve an L after going 8 innings and losing 1-0?

MU82

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #60 on: January 13, 2022, 08:06:33 AM »
Hall of Very Good

The trend these days is that a very good but not great player gets rejected by the voters but then either gets a push late in the process (his last or next-to-last year on the ballot) or is handed the keys to the Hall by a sympathetic old-timers committee.

So I'd say he has a shot, one way or the other.

I'd put Schilling in 10 times out of 10 over Lester, and I'd give Morris an edge too. Maybe even Buehrle.

But Lester was an important contributor to two franchises who desperately needed a pitcher like him, a guy who came through in the clutch, and a guy who had some very good numbers. He's borderline, but he has a chance.
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JWags85

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #61 on: January 13, 2022, 08:54:15 AM »
Do people still care about a stat so meaningless you could receive a W after giving up 9 runs, and recirve an L after going 8 innings and losing 1-0?

In reality, no. In the HOF that loves counting stats and things like that, yes.  That’s the only reason I mentioned it

Retire0

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #62 on: January 13, 2022, 09:06:08 AM »
Guys, he's a hall of famer because of who's in the hall already. He passes 4 of the 5 HOF tests on BR. Add in his performances getting two historical franchises world series titles, that will be the icing on the cake.

https://www.baseball-reference.com/players/l/lestejo01.shtml

New TallTitan bold prediction: Sacar Anim will play in more NBA games than Markus Howard.

TallTitan's bold prediction of Davante Gardner being drafted in 2014.

http://www.muscoop.com/index.php?topic=27259.msg310060;topicseen#new

buckchuckler

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #63 on: January 13, 2022, 10:27:04 AM »
Do people still care about a stat so meaningless you could receive a W after giving up 9 runs, and recirve an L after going 8 innings and losing 1-0?

This is a terrible point in this case.  Morris threw over 1k innings more than Lester did, and averaged about 1 ip more per start.  Putting Morris much more in control of his own record.  The better the pitcher the more relevant wins is as a stat.  Because they are probably going deeper into games and more in control of their own fate.  It isn't perfect and it isn't the best stat to gauge a pitchers effectiveness, but in conjunction with other stats it still tells a story.  Especially when Morris was pitching.  It gets less relevant with each year now because of how pitchers are used and how pitching staffs are built. 
And beyond that, looking at leading the league is not the same as looking at a straight total.  Even now, if you look at the guy the lead the league in wins, it is usually an accomplishment that is reserved for some of the best pitchers in the game.  Can a guy get a couple fluke wins here and there, sure.  But to lead the league is typically a guy that had a pretty darn strong season.  And there aren't really any flukey guys that lead the league in wins multiple times.
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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #64 on: January 13, 2022, 10:34:49 AM »
It's hardly a terrible point.  Regardless of how many innings someone pitched, you aren't in control of what happens in the other half of the inning. 

Wins is absolutely meaningless as a stat.  IP shows you stamina.  ERA shows you effectiveness.  And you can dive into even more advanced stats if you want to drill those down even more.  But no serious person should be using Wins to justify anything with regards to the Hall of Fame.
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buckchuckler

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #65 on: January 13, 2022, 10:40:14 AM »
Also, you may be surprised to learn, that the percentage of players making the HOF has been steadily declining, and is now smaller than ever. So the whole "the HOF is watered down stuff" is just perception.  People tend to compare HOF players to like the best players in the HOF.  Every one is compared to Willie Mays and Sandy Kofax. 

A little bit of an older article, but still as true.

https://tht.fangraphs.com/a-hall-of-stats-shows-a-haul-of-omissions/
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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #66 on: January 13, 2022, 10:40:59 AM »
In 2017, Jacob DeGrom posted a career high 15 wins. He also posted a career worst 3.53 ERA (only 1 other season above 3, 3.04 in 2016).

Wins is a meaningless stat.
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buckchuckler

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #67 on: January 13, 2022, 11:25:39 AM »
Boy people just see the word wins and fly off the handle, eh?  Oh well.  Sorry, I guess I wasn't clear enough in what I was trying to say.  Let me try again.

I never said Morris should be in because of his win total.  I never said that Lester shouldn't be in because of his.  Or that the discrepancy should play any role.

It isn't a good comparison for Lester and Morris.  They pitched in drastically different eras when it comes to starting pitchers.

Is wins relevant for a guy that started his career in 2010?  No, it probably isn't.  Does it matter for a guy that pitched in the 60s? Yeah. The 90s?  Yeah. 

I do think that leading the league is still an accomplishment worthy of recognition.  Even now.  Yeah you can have a fluke year where a Jason Vargas or Gio Gonzalez is the league leader.  But for the most part, it is the best pitchers in the game that are towards the top.  Especially multiple times.  Can good pitchers still be on bad teams like deGrom?  Like Felix?  Yeah of course.  No one is advocating for win total as the top metric to determine a HOF career, or even a good career. 

Look at the wins leaders for the 90s.  Its mostly the best pitchers of the 90s.  Lots of Maddux, Glavine, Clemens.  Same for the 80s, and 70s and 60s, if not moreso.

While Wins itself may not be a great metric, leading the league, says something, and usually a lot,  about the quality of the season the pitcher had.

I would still say going deeper into games gives a better representation of Ws and Ls, but whatever, that isn't really the point I was trying to make. 

Maybe you disagree and anything with Wins is trash.  Cool.  I tend to think it used to mean more than it does now.  Much like K's, WHIP, ERA, and IP it tells a part of the story that is useless on its own. 

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Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #68 on: January 13, 2022, 11:34:56 AM »
No I understood you perfectly.  Wins, regardless of the era, are a bad stat.
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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #69 on: January 13, 2022, 11:38:42 AM »

 

Look at the wins leaders for the 90s.  Its mostly the best pitchers of the 90s.  Lots of Maddux, Glavine, Clemens.  Same for the 80s, and 70s and 60s, if not moreso.
 

I think this is what people are saying. Wins was a very big deal back in the 60s, 70s, 80s. SPs were expected to pitch 250-300 innings.

That's not the case anymore. When SPs are only pitching 5-6 innings, the bullpen/offense may have a larger responsibility for who gets the win than the SP.

jficke13

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #70 on: January 13, 2022, 12:18:39 PM »
I guess I just don't see the point in paying attention to a stat that, at best, is *potentially correlative* of the conclusion you want to draw. I especially don't see the point to doing so when everyone agrees about it's lack of descriptive value. AND especially when there are plenty of readily accessible and pretty easy to understand other metrics to use instead.

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #71 on: January 13, 2022, 12:38:01 PM »
Also, you may be surprised to learn, that the percentage of players making the HOF has been steadily declining, and is now smaller than ever. So the whole "the HOF is watered down stuff" is just perception.  People tend to compare HOF players to like the best players in the HOF.  Every one is compared to Willie Mays and Sandy Kofax. 

A little bit of an older article, but still as true.

https://tht.fangraphs.com/a-hall-of-stats-shows-a-haul-of-omissions/

How much of that is not voting for suspected steroid users?

I think wins were used back in the 60s because it was an easy stat to count and keep track of. Just because people valued it back then doesn’t mean it was any more useful.

You could still have a great pitcher on a woeful offense or unlucky. It doesn’t change the fact that wins are as dependent on your offense just because you pitch an inning or two more.

Jockey

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #72 on: January 13, 2022, 12:39:37 PM »
I guess I just don't see the point in paying attention to a stat that, at best, is *potentially correlative* of the conclusion you want to draw. I especially don't see the point to doing so when everyone agrees about it's lack of descriptive value. AND especially when there are plenty of readily accessible and pretty easy to understand other metrics to use instead.

I completely agree. The days are long gone when ‘wins’ mattered. SPs don’t get 20, 25, 30 complete games like they did 50 years ago.

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #73 on: January 14, 2022, 10:22:52 AM »
I was looking at the BR page wondering what cap Lester might wear if he does get in -- he started about 3/4 as many games in Chicago as he did in Boston (171 to 241.) Interestingly, he had the exact same ERA for both, 3.64. Definitely a better pitcher overall for Boston, though.

Then again, the exact same win/loss % for each team (.636), which is what really matters here.

jficke13

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Re: 2022 MLB Thread
« Reply #74 on: January 14, 2022, 10:55:06 AM »
I was looking at the BR page wondering what cap Lester might wear if he does get in -- he started about 3/4 as many games in Chicago as he did in Boston (171 to 241.) Interestingly, he had the exact same ERA for both, 3.64. Definitely a better pitcher overall for Boston, though.

Then again, the exact same win/loss % for each team (.636), which is what really matters here.

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