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Author Topic: Rittenhouse Volume 3  (Read 3637 times)

#UnleashKolek

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Rittenhouse Volume 3
« on: November 19, 2021, 12:23:07 PM »
Found not guilty on all charges.

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/kyle-rittenhouse-trial-verdict-watch-11-19-21/index.html

Hope he learned his lesson.

jficke13

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Re: Rittenhouse Volume 3
« Reply #1 on: November 19, 2021, 12:25:04 PM »
We, on the other hand, evidently have not learned our lesson. Excited to see what this thread brings!

#UnleashKolek

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Re: Rittenhouse Volume 3
« Reply #2 on: November 19, 2021, 12:25:52 PM »
Kind of surprised on the not guilty of recklessly endangering safety.

#UnleashKolek

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Re: Rittenhouse Volume 3
« Reply #3 on: November 19, 2021, 12:26:36 PM »
We, on the other hand, evidently have not learned our lesson. Excited to see what this thread brings!

4 or so people derail them onto politics. Most of the scoopers had good engaging conversations on this.

GB Warrior

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Re: Rittenhouse Volume 3
« Reply #4 on: November 19, 2021, 12:28:33 PM »
Would be poetic if vigilante justice found its way into Antioch, IL.

MU82

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Re: Rittenhouse Volume 3
« Reply #5 on: November 19, 2021, 12:29:06 PM »
Tremendous series of eff-ups by the prosecution let a killer go scot-free.
“A lot of the stuff that we believe in and that I’ve always believed in — it takes time. It’s not a quick fix. It’s not an instant-gratification thing. It’s a drip-by-drip process.”

-- Shaka Smart, in The Athletic, 10/13/21

CountryRoads

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Re: Rittenhouse Volume 3
« Reply #6 on: November 19, 2021, 12:31:12 PM »
The more the trial went on, the clearer it became that he should be innocent on all charges.

Facts and evidence > media pressure and intimidation

The mods obviously don’t want discussion on this topic, so I will leave it at that. Time to get ready for the game tonight!

#UnleashKolek

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Re: Rittenhouse Volume 3
« Reply #7 on: November 19, 2021, 12:33:09 PM »
Tremendous series of eff-ups by the prosecution let a killer go scot-free.

I'd like to see your view point of that. From mine it seems that Rittenhouse truly was acting in self defense from every piece of video/witness accounts.

Warriors4ever

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Re: Rittenhouse Volume 3
« Reply #8 on: November 19, 2021, 12:34:52 PM »
All sorts of prosecution issues, so the verdict isn’t necessarily all that surprising.
My beef is that a black or Hispanic teenager in the same circumstances would not have had the same outcome, and I base that on thirty years of criminal defense work.

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Rittenhouse Volume 3
« Reply #9 on: November 19, 2021, 12:37:43 PM »
Kind of surprised on the not guilty of recklessly endangering safety.


Me too, although I am not sure that legally carrying a firearm, that you then fire in self-defense, is recklessly endangering safety as I understand how the law is interpreted.  If he would have carried it, and there was no threat to his life but he then fired it into the air, that is recklessly endangering safety.

But once it was determined that possessing it was legal, and that the shooting was in self-defense, I am not sure how they could convict him on the safety charge.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

Uncle Rico

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Re: Rittenhouse Volume 3
« Reply #10 on: November 19, 2021, 12:42:38 PM »
All sorts of prosecution issues, so the verdict isn’t necessarily all that surprising.
My beef is that a black or Hispanic teenager in the same circumstances would not have had the same outcome, and I base that on thirty years of criminal defense work.

That individual would never have made it to trial.  He or she would be dead
Tis a shame, 'tis a rotton shame, for if ye can enjoy the walkin’ ye can probably enjoy the other times in yer life when ve're in between. And that's most o' the time; wouldn't ye say?

MU82

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Re: Rittenhouse Volume 3
« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2021, 12:43:16 PM »
I'd like to see your view point of that. From mine it seems that Rittenhouse truly was acting in self defense from every piece of video/witness accounts.

Oh, I absolutely didn't expect him to be found guilty of murder based on what we saw, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a killer. O.J. wasn't found guilty, either. There were charges for which he should have done jail time though IMHO. Instead, he's a vigilante hero, and others will be similarly emboldened.

And this:

All sorts of prosecution issues, so the verdict isn’t necessarily all that surprising.
My beef is that a black or Hispanic teenager in the same circumstances would not have had the same outcome, and I base that on thirty years of criminal defense work.

Hell, a Black or Hispanic teenager probably would have been gunned down by the cops that night, instead of being given a big smile and a thumbs-up.
“A lot of the stuff that we believe in and that I’ve always believed in — it takes time. It’s not a quick fix. It’s not an instant-gratification thing. It’s a drip-by-drip process.”

-- Shaka Smart, in The Athletic, 10/13/21

StillAWarrior

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Re: Rittenhouse Volume 3
« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2021, 12:44:40 PM »
I know it may be too much to hope for, but I hope that in the aftermath of this trial Rittenhouse shows some humility and empathy. He may have been found not criminally liable, but I hope he recognizes the absolute tragedy that he was involved in and acts accordingly. In short, I hope he demonstrates that he actually is the kind of person that the defense team and his supporters claim that he was.
Never wrestle with a pig.  You both get dirty, and the pig likes it.

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Rittenhouse Volume 3
« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2021, 12:48:20 PM »
Oh, I absolutely didn't expect him to be found guilty of murder based on what we saw, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a killer. O.J. wasn't found guilty, either.


 ::) ::) ::)  FFS, can you stop talking in banal talking points for once?  This has nothing to do with OJ.  This has to do with a Wisconsin self-defense law that (IMO) gives way too much deference to the person pulling the trigger.

IOW, stop using these topics as ways to insert your politics and get them locked.  The rest of us want to have a discussion here.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

skianth16

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Re: Rittenhouse Volume 3
« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2021, 12:49:55 PM »
It's not getting much media coverage, but a black man charged with murder in Georgia was just acquitted. Look up the Rayshondre Tarver case. Drug deal gone bad results in 2 deaths. The accused is found not guilty of murder with an argument of self-defense.

Obviously there are differences in the case and even the final outcome, but here's a real-time example that doesn't tie into the typical narrative that just isn't getting much publicity. This doesn't change the history of the criminal justice system in our country, but it's an example of how often we see certain narratives shared more broadly than others.

Edit - I'm not trying to broaden the topic of the thread too much here, just offering a rebuttal to the theoreticals that are being tossed out
« Last Edit: November 19, 2021, 12:52:36 PM by skianth16 »

Skatastrophy

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Re: Rittenhouse Volume 3
« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2021, 12:50:40 PM »
So vigilantism is legal in Wisconsin. Big yikes.

lawdog77

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Re: Rittenhouse Volume 3
« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2021, 12:52:52 PM »
Oh, I absolutely didn't expect him to be found guilty of murder based on what we saw, but that doesn't mean he wasn't a killer. O.J. wasn't found guilty, either. There were charges for which he should have done jail time though IMHO. Instead, he's a vigilante hero, and others will be similarly emboldened.

And this:

Hell, a Black or Hispanic teenager probably would have been gunned down by the cops that night, instead of being given a big smile and a thumbs-up.
In regards to self defense and stand your ground laws, found this interesting:

Yet in Florida, some of the most ardent defenders of the law have been black defense attorneys. The reason: Their black, often young, clients are the most successful users of the law. Indeed, data show that black defendants have a high success rate in invoking stand your ground in black-on-black violence. In fact, if all cases are taken into account, black defendants have a higher success rate in claiming stand your ground than do white defendants, and they attempt to claim stand your ground at higher rates.

"There is a long history of African-American support for gun rights and the principle of armed self-defense," writes Jelani Cobb, director of the Institute for African-American Studies at the University of Connecticut, in The New Yorker. He cites the Deacons for Defense and Justice, an armed posse that protected civil rights marchers, and former NAACP head Walter White, who protected his home with a rifle during the 1906 Atlanta race riots.

https://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justice/2013/0806/Racial-bias-and-stand-your-ground-laws-what-the-data-show
Edited to add link, 
« Last Edit: November 19, 2021, 01:10:06 PM by lawdog77 »

Warriors4ever

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Re: Rittenhouse Volume 3
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2021, 12:53:07 PM »
Drug deal gone bad is a very different scenario. I said a black teenager in Rittenhouse’s circumstances would not have walked; as pointed out, there is a good chance he would have been shot dead that night, as opposed to walking right past the cops.

Billy Hoyle

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Re: Rittenhouse Volume 3
« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2021, 12:53:12 PM »
The more the trial went on, the clearer it became that he should be innocent on all charges.

Facts and evidence > media pressure and intimidation

The mods obviously don’t want discussion on this topic, so I will leave it at that. Time to get ready for the game tonight!

exactly.  This editorial from a Constitutional Law expert nailed it: bowing to public pressure doomed the prosecution. IMO, as a lawyer, the jury got it right based upon the evidence and the standard the prosecution had to meet.

https://jonathanturley.org/2021/11/16/rittenhouse-and-the-perils-of-weighing-public-opinion-over-evidence-in-prosecutions/

There were many people who were made at the Hennepin County DA for not charging with Chauvin with First Degree murder but he was smart and went for a charge for which he could get a conviction - the DA did not here.

BTW, it's not guilty, not "innocent."

Overcharging may please the public, but it can demolish a case. While jurors can convict on “lesser included” offenses, the credibility of the prosecution is established by the lead charge. Jurors tend to start at the top and work their way down on the charges. If the first-degree charge is wildly out of reach, they are more likely to doubt the lesser charges, too.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2021, 12:55:09 PM by Billy Hoyle »
“Forcing Black Americans to make a decision to take the vaccine or lose their job is "completely unfair...” -Hank Newsome, Black Lives Matter

skianth16

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Re: Rittenhouse Volume 3
« Reply #19 on: November 19, 2021, 12:54:13 PM »
Lawdog - can you share that link?

skianth16

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Re: Rittenhouse Volume 3
« Reply #20 on: November 19, 2021, 12:57:19 PM »
Drug deal gone bad is a very different scenario. I said a black teenager in Rittenhouse’s circumstances would not have walked; as pointed out, there is a good chance he would have been shot dead that night, as opposed to walking right past the cops.

There's no way to refute the outcome of a fake scenario. I was simply offering a somewhat similar parallel scenario to Rittenhouse to show that in real life other outcomes do happen. We just don't hear about them as often.

StillAWarrior

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Re: Rittenhouse Volume 3
« Reply #21 on: November 19, 2021, 01:00:53 PM »
There were many people who were made at the Hennepin County DA for not charging with Chauvin with First Degree murder but he was smart and went for a charge for which he could get a conviction - the DA did not here.

BTW, it's not guilty, not "innocent."

Overcharging may please the public, but it can demolish a case. While jurors can convict on “lesser included” offenses, the credibility of the prosecution is established by the lead charge. Jurors tend to start at the top and work their way down on the charges. If the first-degree charge is wildly out of reach, they are more likely to doubt the lesser charges, too.

This. In a jury trial, the lawyer's credibility is extremely important. If the jury doesn't trust the attorney, it is quite likely that the client will pay the price. I believe the prosecutor in this case lost a great deal of credibility the instant he overcharged Rittenhouse. He then continued to hemorrhage credibility when he tried to make the facts fit the ridiculous charge.
Never wrestle with a pig.  You both get dirty, and the pig likes it.

Uncle Rico

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Re: Rittenhouse Volume 3
« Reply #22 on: November 19, 2021, 01:01:16 PM »
There's no way to refute the outcome of a fake scenario. I was simply offering a somewhat similar parallel scenario to Rittenhouse to show that in real life other outcomes do happen. We just don't hear about them as often.

In real life, a black male or Hispanic male in the same setting as Kyle Rittenhouse would be dead. 
Tis a shame, 'tis a rotton shame, for if ye can enjoy the walkin’ ye can probably enjoy the other times in yer life when ve're in between. And that's most o' the time; wouldn't ye say?

Galway Eagle

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Re: Rittenhouse Volume 3
« Reply #23 on: November 19, 2021, 01:01:27 PM »
Could someone explain the self defense interpretation in Wisconsin? I was always told you're allowed to use lethal force only if your life is threatened. Ie I can't shoot someone for pushing me.

Is it different in wi? Did the prosecution over charge? Did the jury ultimately decide that all three threatened Kyle's life?
Maigh Eo for Sam

21Jumpstreet

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Re: Rittenhouse Volume 3
« Reply #24 on: November 19, 2021, 01:03:31 PM »
Court did it’s job, not guilty, case closed. He is also a killer of two humans, by his choice and by his hand.

 

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