The Bare cupboard

[PointWarrior]

Does it really matter, Wojo could have inherited 5 all-americans and likely still have a fading collapse to the season.

[BallBoy]

You skimmed over the two NBA players but we’ll never agree on this. I consider this one of the great Scoop myths in my mind.

One player didn’t make the nba until five years after he graduated. The other averaged 5.4 minutes over 71 games split over two seasons and has since not played a single minute of pro basketball since. When you look at his stats they are completely unimpressive.  The team who didn’t sign his option said he was good raw talent but they couldn’t justify spending more time to develop him.  That was approximately 5 years after he left MU.  Neither were NBA talents at the time they were at MU.

[dinger]

I’m no Shaka apologist and the first few games have been rough, but that’s just how it goes when your program has been dogcrap for 8 straight years. You don’t just immediately turn it around.

Exactly. It will take a while to undo the damage done by wojo. I'm over the five years to judge crap but Shaka at least deserves time to get his system in place.

At best this talented team gets it together by the end of the year and makes the dance but the likely outcome is a tough year. Either way he can't win any less NCAA games than the last guy.

[wadesworld]

Shaka inherited a team that was under .500 overall and 9th (one cancelled game above 10th place Butler) in the Big East.

Call it whatever you want. But usually when you’re firing a coach the cupboard isn’t bursting.

[Boozemon Barro]

Your cupboard no matta if you are not a very good coach. 

It was a not very good excuse back then and with transfers it’s not a very good excuse now.

Completely agree.

[The Lens]

Remeber Luke Wynn's tweet (deleted account since he took a NBA job) that MU Had more Top 100 RCSI players than the rest of the Big East combined? 

The cupboards were so full that most of the stuff spoiled for not be used fast enough.

Sad.

Now it's Shaka time...all gas, no f'n brakes.  Let's go.

[Dr. Blackheart]

I edited and added before you posted.  I didn't address Burton because he was a unique situation with his mother passing.

So if Wojos cupboard was full, then Buzz must be a terrible coach right? Because he had all of those players except Luke and Duane and he couldn't even make the NIT and he put all the players he gave Wojo 12 minutes or less a game except  Derrick. If talent wasn't the issue, coaching must have been.

The man was fired for good reason,  you don't have to make things up to pile on

Buzz had Vander leave unexpectedly, and Duane who was a better PG in high school than Koenig, red shirt with an injury. Then there was Mayo. That left Buzz with his fourth and fifth guards to start. You might even make the argument that Buzz did a very good coaching job considering that roster, especially if a few of those close games went MU’s way at the end (and if Buzz didn’t self-destruct).

Back to the main point, which you guys are actually making for me, if the roster was so bare, why didn’t Wojo do anything about it, except to materially add Carlino? Duane wound up being the leading freshman scorer in the BE that season and the core of that roster helped Wojo into the NCAAT a few years later.

Btw, I remind folks that I was eviscerated back then by many of the same folks for arguing that Wojo should have done what Shaka is doing now: Getting his guys in here to fit his system despite the short term struggles.  And now I am being eviscerated again for stating Wojo’s cupboard wasn’t bare as Scoop now claims, he just chose (incorrectly) to ride it even though those players were clearly not a fit for his system—then or now.

Net, and back to the topic, there are two ways to rebuild. I am with Shaka tearing it down to the studs. And for the record, neither Garcia nor DJ were good fits for Shaka or any of the Super Seniors. I am glad he didn’t take Wojo’s way and retain them. A .500 season will be overachieving.

[Lennys Tap]

You skimmed over the two NBA players but we’ll never agree on this. I consider this one of the great Scoop myths in my mind.

+1

The “bare cupboard” myth was the first excuse Scoopers used to ignore the fact that the emperor had no clothes. It only prolonged the pain.

[forgetful]

Shaka inherited a team that was under .500 overall and 9th (one cancelled game above 10th place Butler) in the Big East.

Call it whatever you want. But usually when you’re firing a coach the cupboard isn’t bursting.

If you add Morsell to Garcia, Lewis and DJ, the Scoop and experts would have been expecting Wojo/Shaka to make it to the tournament at the least, and some would have expected a run to the 2nd weekend.

And they would have been right. That would have been 4-players with at least fringe NBA potential manning the 1-4 positions, with an average of 2-years of college experience. All with serious scoring abilities. Add a rim protector of your choice and that is a very good roster.

All four are arguably better than the best returning player Wojo had.

As I said earlier. Shaka took a lesson from what happened at UT and threw away the talent listed above to build a team around his vision. He threw away a tourney contending team, for a long term vision.  That very well may be the best choice. Wojo didn't have that learning experience yet.

[rocky_warrior]

Either way he can't win any less NCAA games than the last guy.

Though he could win less NIT games! 

I expect within a few years we'll be a "regular" in NCAA tournament again.  I'm not so confident Shaka can get us over the hump that everybody wants, but I hope he can.

As for this year, I didn't expect very good, and so far they've been a little worse than I expected.  Maybe Greg will bump them up to the level I thought.  Kind of disappointed Shaka didn't go for the "reload to win" as many other coaches did.  In the few non-Marquette games I've watched, it's clear to me the top teams will be a collection of older guys that either came up with the coach, or were acquired in the portal.   That's not us, hopefully we can get there.

[panda]

Buzz had Vander leave unexpectedly, and Duane who was a better PG in high school than Koenig, red shirt with an injury. Then there was Mayo. That left Buzz with his fourth and fifth guards to start. You might even make the argument that Buzz did a very good coaching job considering that roster, especially if a few of those close games went MU’s way at the end (and if Buzz didn’t self-destruct).

Back to the main point, which you guys are actually making for me, if the roster was so bare, why didn’t Wojo do anything about it, except to materially add Carlino? Duane wound up being the leading freshman scorer in the BE that season and the core of that roster helped Wojo into the NCAAT a few years later.

Btw, I remind folks that I was eviscerated back then by many of the same folks for arguing that Wojo should have done what Shaka is doing now: Getting his guys in here to fit his system despite the short term struggles.  And now I am being eviscerated again for stating Wojo’s cupboard wasn’t bare as Scoop now claims, he just chose (incorrectly) to ride it even though those players were clearly not a fit for his system—then or now.

Net, and back to the topic, there are two ways to rebuild. I am with Shaka tearing it down to the studs. And for the record, neither Garcia nor DJ were good fits for Shaka or any of the Super Seniors. I am glad he didn’t take Wojo’s way and retain them. A .500 season will be overachieving.

Then he recruited over Duane. He was just absolutely clueless when it came to roster construction.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Back to the main point, which you guys are actually making for me, if the roster was so bare, why didn’t Wojo do anything about it, except to materially add Carlino? Duane wound up being the leading freshman scorer in the BE that season and the core of that roster helped Wojo into the NCAAT a few years later.

If your main point is that Wojo did a crappy job restocking the cupboard than everyone agrees with you.  The core getting a 10 seed in their 4th year with two freshmen leading them is not as good of an endorsement of the talent as you seem to think it is.

Btw, I remind folks that I was eviscerated back then by many of the same folks for arguing that Wojo should have done what Shaka is doing now: Getting his guys in here to fit his system despite the short term struggles.  And now I am being eviscerated again for stating Wojo’s cupboard wasn’t bare as Scoop now claims, he just chose (incorrectly) to ride it even though those players were clearly not a fit for his system—then or now.

Dr. B, you're not being eviscerated people are just disagreeing with you.  I was one of the people who disagreed with you 6 years ago and have since admitted repeatedly that I was wrong. I was young and naive and wanted to believe that Buzz was a bad coach and there was talent that a new coach would unleash. Instead it became apparent that they just weren't very good.

Wojo should have torn it down as you suggested. The fact that he didn't doesn't mean that the pieces he was left with were very good

[Badgerhater]

Arguing about bare cupboard is a dog chasing its tail because it doesn’t matter and the rules/situation due to COVID are very different.

Wojo never elevated his collection of players into a cohesive team during any of his seasons.   Even in his best years those teams underperformed expectations.

Last year’s team was a dumpster fire.  The different transfer situation between WOjo and Shaka is a tremendous opportunity to rebuild a team from scratch and we will see how it works, but I will never fault his decision to rebuild.

[bilsu]

In today's world you can build a team quite fast. What worries me is this year's recruiting class. The two signed players are fine, except they did not fill our needs. We need front court size and I know some of you want to argue that we have enough. You build a team by improving your weakest areas and so far we have not done that. We grabbed Morsell from the transfer market and I am pretty sure we will be sitting at 0-2 without him. Maybe we can get some front line help in this year's transfer market.

I still can see this team being pretty good with two or three years down the road with the base we have. I expect players to show significant improvement as they get stronger and play smarter.

[Badgerhater]

Kind of disappointed Shaka didn't go for the "reload to win" as many other coaches did.  In the few non-Marquette games I've watched, it's clear to me the top teams will be a collection of older guys that either came up with the coach, or were acquired in the portal.   That's not us, hopefully we can get there.

There is a lot of “win now” in college programs, but following a fired coach of a 10th place team isn’t one of them.   Shaka has essentially a roster of his freshman and sophomores with a splash of seniors and no juniors.  The single season upperclassman seeking a tournament run on a good team were not going to go to MU this year.

This the perfect year to start from scratch with young players.

I expect to see growth in players as well as a team, which is what makes regular seasons fun to watch.  The only fun thing about Wojo years was seeing Howard go off for 40.

[rocky_warrior]

I expect to see growth in players as well as a team, which is what makes regular seasons fun to watch. 

Hm, winning is fun to watch.  I'll watch as many MU games as I can this year, and I'm not a win at all cost guy, but I'd prefer to see them win than lose.  Maybe "growth" is fun for you, but that won't get fans back in the stands.

[Uncle Rico]

Anyway you cut it, arguing about this every few months changes a lot of minds

[rocky_warrior]

Anyway you cut it, arguing about this every few months changes a lot of minds

+1

In another few months Dr. B might even have me convinced.  On the other hand, with all the usage, we're gonna need new cupboards soon.

[Uncle Rico]

+1

In another few months Dr. B might even have me convinced.  On the other hand, with all the usage, we're gonna need new cupboards soon.

At least Buzz left the toilet full when he left

[fjm]

Anyway you cut it, arguing about this every few months changes a lot of minds

What else are we gonna argue about?

[Badgerhater]

Hm, winning is fun to watch.  I'll watch as many MU games as I can this year, and I'm not a win at all cost guy, but I'd prefer to see them win than lose.  Maybe "growth" is fun for you, but that won't get fans back in the stands.

I like and prefer winning.   But When that isn’t what is happening I prefer seeing development and progress as opposed to everyone quitting on Wojo.

[Billy Hoyle]

In today's world you can build a team quite fast. What worries me is this year's recruiting class. The two signed players are fine, except they did not fill our needs. We need front court size and I know some of you want to argue that we have enough. You build a team by improving your weakest areas and so far we have not done that. We grabbed Morsell from the transfer market and I am pretty sure we will be sitting at 0-2 without him. Maybe we can get some front line help in this year's transfer market.

I still can see this team being pretty good with two or three years down the road with the base we have. I expect players to show significant improvement as they get stronger and play smarter.

Don’t worry about that. Classes are going to be built through the transfer portal, especially for big guys. Coaches are holding scholarships to recruit transfers. Not only do you have a better gauge of college ability but they can’t transfer again without sitting out.

[rocky_warrior]

I like and prefer winning.   But When that isn’t what is happening I prefer seeing development and progress as opposed to everyone quitting on Wojo.

Wojo is gone. Let's move on to comparing Shaka to his peers.

[MU82]

Anyway you cut it, arguing about this every few months changes a lot of minds

Oh yeah? I was gonna "eviscerate" you, but I figured you'd want to keep your bowels.

I just hope Dr. B gets some surgery to get new innards!

[wadesworld]

If you add Morsell to Garcia, Lewis and DJ, the Scoop and experts would have been expecting Wojo/Shaka to make it to the tournament at the least, and some would have expected a run to the 2nd weekend.

And they would have been right. That would have been 4-players with at least fringe NBA potential manning the 1-4 positions, with an average of 2-years of college experience. All with serious scoring abilities. Add a rim protector of your choice and that is a very good roster.

All four are arguably better than the best returning player Wojo had.

As I said earlier. Shaka took a lesson from what happened at UT and threw away the talent listed above to build a team around his vision. He threw away a tourney contending team, for a long term vision.  That very well may be the best choice. Wojo didn't have that learning experience yet.

But why? Lewis was a returning 6th man. Garcia and Carton have been backups in their other college stops. And Morsell was the defensive stopper who didn’t do a ton offensively in his other college stop. That’s about 4 complimentary players. So not sure why that would equate to a second weekend team.