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Author Topic: New Frosh Class at MU  (Read 15016 times)

jficke13

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #275 on: September 15, 2021, 10:23:35 AM »
Again, as others have said, most students accepted by Marquette aren't going to pay anywhere near $220K -- most will have "assistance," and a considerable amount. So while I know you need to fuel a narrative, please stop talking about $220K.

It's not 1969 anymore. The Vietnam War is over. A McDonald's burger isn't 15 cents. Gas isn't 29 cents a gallon. Minimum wage isn't $1.60. Your examples have no merit.

But yes, many college graduates do not make big bucks right out of school.

As fun as it is to dunk on cherry picking facts to push a narrative, there is a kernel of truth buried in there. The cost of college has increased at a rate that far exceed inflation. It continues to do so at a rate that exceeds the growth of wages. These two things, together, seem to me to be bad. Also, if they continue then their negative impact will tend to grow over time, especially as incurring increasingly large debt loads remains the commonly-necessary means of paying for the increasingly high tuition amounts actually paid.

muwarrior69

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #276 on: September 15, 2021, 10:27:35 AM »


No.  What I am saying is that a Marquette education provides the students with the compensation needed to pay back their student loans, and they do so at a higher rate than their peer institutions.  Therefore they received an education of value.

...but not as valuable as it once was and that is true for the state schools as well.

Galway Eagle

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #277 on: September 15, 2021, 10:29:06 AM »
Just saw MU added Triton as a guaranteed admission Junior college. That's awesome. Of course of the 25 neighborhoods it serves I think only about 4 would be from a spot where the average family could realistically afford MU without a ton of scholarships. It's like the MATC program, great idea but what percent of students coming out are realistically going to be able to make that jump with the financial burden?
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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #278 on: September 15, 2021, 10:31:05 AM »
While you're right I think you're going after the wrong party here. FBM seems to be the one vaguely saying we get creative so 'these kids can afford it' without very much context. But this argument's been had before.


I don't understand what context you need.  If a school is graduating people who are generally satisfied with their experience and their outcomes, enough to pay their student loans back, they clearly can "afford it."

They also have alumni employment rates here:

https://www.marquette.edu/value/
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UWW2MU

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #279 on: September 15, 2021, 10:50:50 AM »
OK, but you all realize that these players are on a full scholarship, right?    ::)

Galway Eagle

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #280 on: September 15, 2021, 10:53:10 AM »

I don't understand what context you need.  If a school is graduating people who are generally satisfied with their experience and their outcomes, enough to pay their student loans back, they clearly can "afford it."

They also have alumni employment rates here:

https://www.marquette.edu/value/

You really think a school's PR page is the best spot for real info? I mean how is that different than going to Fox to reinforce ideas about election integrity?

If I'm 23 or 24 with all those fresh great times at MU in my head & making 40k as a jr developer, then I have no idea that I am not able to allocate money for future house, car or general savings, for 401k, no chance I could handle an unplanned pregnancy, but dammit I'd give MU a great satisfied rating on the survey because all my friends are from there and we're all roughly in the same boat.

I know all of 2 people who graduated from MU that made above 55k as their starting salary and she was heavily connected, he was a very specific type of engineer & connected. Here I am 7yrs later and, discounting sales jobs that are heavily commission based, I know nobody beyond those two who make 6 figures without a Graduate degree. As we all enter our 30s and people are asking why we aren't buying houses while we pay 50% of a mortgage each month for school loans and havent incrementally increased salaries for that great ROI like everyone said we would. That's from business majors, education, Comm, and engineering.  There's literally no way you can tell me that colleges are just keeping up with inflation when you see the debt to income ratio of people in the 60s and 70s.

Edit: And still relate back to your comment regarding teachers of "not everybody chooses their career for the money" with a huge eye roll. Money when you have no perspective of the costs of the future is easy to ignore.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2021, 11:08:33 AM by Galway Eagle »
Maigh Eo for Sam

muwarrior69

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #281 on: September 15, 2021, 10:55:41 AM »
Again, as others have said, most students accepted by Marquette aren't going to pay anywhere near $220K -- most will have "assistance," and a considerable amount. So while I know you need to fuel a narrative, please stop talking about $220K.

It's not 1969 anymore. The Vietnam War is over. A McDonald's burger isn't 15 cents. Gas isn't 29 cents a gallon. Minimum wage isn't $1.60. Your examples have no merit.

But yes, many college graduates do not make big bucks right out of school.

...and why is that? I venture to guess that the BA or BS no longer has the value it once had when I graduated. That is not pushing a narrative. The numbers don't lie and Jfickle13 is right on. Even if every MU student only paid 110K they would have to graduate with an 82K starting salary to equal the 1.33 debt ratio I graduated with. I doubt very few state school graduates will earn a 1.33 debt ratio when they graduate. It shouldn't be this way.

Billy Hoyle

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #282 on: September 15, 2021, 11:08:53 AM »
Again, as others have said, most students accepted by Marquette aren't going to pay anywhere near $220K -- most will have "assistance," and a considerable amount. So while I know you need to fuel a narrative, please stop talking about $220K.

It's not 1969 anymore. The Vietnam War is over. A McDonald's burger isn't 15 cents. Gas isn't 29 cents a gallon. Minimum wage isn't $1.60. Your examples have no merit.

But yes, many college graduates do not make big bucks right out of school.

But how much of that "assistance" consists of federal loans?
“Forcing Black Americans to make a decision to take the vaccine or lose their job is "completely unfair...” -Hank Newsome, Black Lives Matter

Galway Eagle

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #283 on: September 15, 2021, 11:12:10 AM »
But how much of that "assistance" consists of federal loans?

A little north of 50million based on fluffy's link.
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dgies9156

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #284 on: September 15, 2021, 11:33:38 AM »
Again, as others have said, most students accepted by Marquette aren't going to pay anywhere near $220K -- most will have "assistance," and a considerable amount. So while I know you need to fuel a narrative, please stop talking about $220K.

It's not 1969 anymore. The Vietnam War is over. A McDonald's burger isn't 15 cents. Gas isn't 29 cents a gallon. Minimum wage isn't $1.60. Your examples have no merit.

But yes, many college graduates do not make big bucks right out of school.

Ok, last numbers driven analysis. Let's buy your qualitative assessment that folks are getting a considerable amount of assistance. Further, assume the newly minted graduate of Marquette makes $45,000 annually, which is not an unusual starting salary for many MU grads. To get in a college costs/salary ratio of 1.5x to 3.0x, your range of tuition has to be between $67,500 and $135,000. Now, assuming the rack, or undiscounted, rate is $220,000 for four years, the discount off the rack has to be between 38.6 percent and 69.3 percent.

To the extent Marquette doesn't discount, the student either must make that up through scholarships or outside equity/debt contribution.

Now, compare the same analysis to a State of Illinois public university. With no discounting, the four-year cost is going to be about $110,000, give or take. Assuming the same $45,000 starting salary (which is reasonable for a University of Illinois grad working in Chicago or any of Illinois' cities), the college cost/first year income ratio is a much more manageable 2.44x.

This is the problem Marquette and every other competitive private university is facing.

Look, I'm a huge believer in Marquette and have seen what it did for me and I've put my money where my mouth is. It's an incredible university. But its competition, like it or not, is large state chartered and supported universities. MU's real competition is Illinois, Michigan, Indiana, Purdue, Michigan State, Iowa, Missouri, Minnesota and even that tech school to the west!

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #285 on: September 15, 2021, 12:31:12 PM »
You really think a school's PR page is the best spot for real info? I mean how is that different than going to Fox to reinforce ideas about election integrity?

If I'm 23 or 24 with all those fresh great times at MU in my head & making 40k as a jr developer, then I have no idea that I am not able to allocate money for future house, car or general savings, for 401k, no chance I could handle an unplanned pregnancy, but dammit I'd give MU a great satisfied rating on the survey because all my friends are from there and we're all roughly in the same boat.

I know all of 2 people who graduated from MU that made above 55k as their starting salary and she was heavily connected, he was a very specific type of engineer & connected. Here I am 7yrs later and, discounting sales jobs that are heavily commission based, I know nobody beyond those two who make 6 figures without a Graduate degree. As we all enter our 30s and people are asking why we aren't buying houses while we pay 50% of a mortgage each month for school loans and havent incrementally increased salaries for that great ROI like everyone said we would. That's from business majors, education, Comm, and engineering.  There's literally no way you can tell me that colleges are just keeping up with inflation when you see the debt to income ratio of people in the 60s and 70s.

Edit: And still relate back to your comment regarding teachers of "not everybody chooses their career for the money" with a huge eye roll. Money when you have no perspective of the costs of the future is easy to ignore.


Well then, I will likely not engage with you in further discussion about this because it seems you're a tad jaded due to your personal circumstance.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

Galway Eagle

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #286 on: September 15, 2021, 12:38:33 PM »

Well then, I will likely not engage with you in further discussion about this because it seems you're a tad jaded due to your personal circumstance.

My personal circumstance is different, I was lucky enough to only have 1.5yrs worth of loans and have EU citizenship so I got a graduate degree at fraction of the cost which got me out of that relentless cycle. I'm angry about it after hearing about friends and family circumstances, blessed it's not mine.

But let's say it was, your argument is "well if you have a bad experience I won't engage with you"? That's like saying "America's perfect" and then not having a discussion about why it's not if confronted by someone who's black gay or poor.

This is exactly what happened when I laid out a whole monthly budget for you and asked for you to give input, you just said "im not going to engage". You've bought your employer's & alma mater's cool aid and that's fine nothing wrong with acknowledging that the cool aid isn't for everybody and that it's not a perfect drink.

Edit: I will admit to being jaded but still loving MU with all my heart. If/when I have a kid I hope I can send them to their school of choice, whether that's MU or anywhere that isn't ND/UW
« Last Edit: September 15, 2021, 12:40:35 PM by Galway Eagle »
Maigh Eo for Sam

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #287 on: September 15, 2021, 12:41:53 PM »
Dude, with all due respect, don't ask me a bunch of questions then turn around and claim that I am using biased information or drinking the cool aid.  I simply don't care enough about changing a mind that clearly has no desire to be changed.  So why engage?
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

Galway Eagle

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #288 on: September 15, 2021, 12:47:23 PM »
Dude, with all due respect, don't ask me a bunch of questions then turn around and claim that I am using biased information or drinking the cool aid.  I simply don't care enough about changing a mind that clearly has no desire to be changed.  So why engage?

You literally gave a link to a PR page from MU's website that didn't list salary and instead focuses on positive experience and general employment. How do you not think that's not spin?  If you'd posted a legit study of average salaries vs loans then this is an entirely different conversation.

I've seen you take people to task for posting political leaning PR pieces that pull stuff like that. I just don't get why you don't see it when it's relevant to your field.
Maigh Eo for Sam

LAZER

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #289 on: September 15, 2021, 01:56:11 PM »
You really think a school's PR page is the best spot for real info? I mean how is that different than going to Fox to reinforce ideas about election integrity?

If I'm 23 or 24 with all those fresh great times at MU in my head & making 40k as a jr developer, then I have no idea that I am not able to allocate money for future house, car or general savings, for 401k, no chance I could handle an unplanned pregnancy, but dammit I'd give MU a great satisfied rating on the survey because all my friends are from there and we're all roughly in the same boat.

I know all of 2 people who graduated from MU that made above 55k as their starting salary and she was heavily connected, he was a very specific type of engineer & connected. Here I am 7yrs later and, discounting sales jobs that are heavily commission based, I know nobody beyond those two who make 6 figures without a Graduate degree. As we all enter our 30s and people are asking why we aren't buying houses while we pay 50% of a mortgage each month for school loans and havent incrementally increased salaries for that great ROI like everyone said we would. That's from business majors, education, Comm, and engineering.  There's literally no way you can tell me that colleges are just keeping up with inflation when you see the debt to income ratio of people in the 60s and 70s.

Edit: And still relate back to your comment regarding teachers of "not everybody chooses their career for the money" with a huge eye roll. Money when you have no perspective of the costs of the future is easy to ignore.
I feel like the need for a graduate degree to earn six figures is becoming less and less relevant. And to be honest, I think there are plenty of opportunities to make six figures and up in your early 30's without a graduate degree.

GOO

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #290 on: September 15, 2021, 02:23:04 PM »
The cost of education has gone up exponentially compared to inflation.  But the value of a degree compared to not having a degree has also changed in favor of having a degree.  The gap is larger and the jobs without a degree tend to be a lot worse than those from the mid-1980s and before.  Can't just go work at the local union factory anymore. Yes, there are trade jobs that pay well, and they are viable options for many, but also the type of jobs that many can't do at a high level past the age of mid-50s at best. 

The college picture is not as bleak as many make it out to be. But this is a transition period where private schools have to become more efficient, focused, and offer scholarships like never before. The new online competition is just getting started and will force many schools to get smaller and cheaper for the students.

For very good students for tuition and room and board, Marquette ends up being about 15K to 20K more expensive per year than UW Madison only taking into account the initial discount Marquette gives for applying and being accepted.  Not bad, but still a problem if your middle or upper middle class or have a few kids. UW Madison does not offer such discounts and fewer scholarship opportunities.  If you also get need based aid or additional scholarships (competitive scholarships) the cost can be equal or better and UW Madison.  Very doable for many. 

If you want to make Marquette really competitive for more great students, they have to compete on money, which equals more and better scholarships.  Get the cost well below the public school competition for very good students. Religious differentiation has become less and less meaningful.  To differentiate on things other than costs, size, ethics, specific programs, and ratings which means get better students, get smaller, and offer more money.

I'd say Marquette should put money into scholarships and less into the physical plant. 

As for the Pere Marquette Awards, which one gets just for applying, there is a link that tells you how much to expect. Not sure exactly how accurate this is.  But for example some with a 4.0 with no test score would get about 18K off the sticker price. Throw in a 26 on the ACT and you get 22K off the sticker price, even before applying for other aid.
See link:
https://tcc.ruffalonl.com/Marquette%20University/Freshman-Students

dgies9156

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #291 on: September 15, 2021, 04:20:16 PM »
The cost of education has gone up exponentially compared to inflation.  But the value of a degree compared to not having a degree has also changed in favor of having a degree.  The gap is larger and the jobs without a degree tend to be a lot worse than those from the mid-1980s and before.  Can't just go work at the local union factory anymore. Yes, there are trade jobs that pay well, and they are viable options for many, but also the type of jobs that many can't do at a high level past the age of mid-50s at best. 

There you go. That's the problem.

Forget for a moment where on the fee spectrum someone is paying for Marquette, the fact is the cost of the Marquette education has skyrocketed far beyond any measure of inflation. I have yet to hear a plausible explanation for why it is 10 times more expensive at the rack rate and probably about 6x to 8x more expensive at the discounted rate to educate a person now than it was around 1980.

I get technology is far more prevalent today. I get that employers want technologically savvy grads for jobs, regardless of fields. But technology as a driver for tuition that is six times to 10 times more, no. Not a chance. That has more to do with WHO is paying and the availability of cheap loans than anything.

Years ago, I posed the question at a Marquette reception in Chicago. Father Pilarz said students want amenities. New, large rec centers, better food, nicer dorms for example. That's driving costs up. I nearly puked. I wanted to ask, based on that comment, if I could get a dinner reservation at Schroeder Hall!

Even Barack Obama raised the same questions I did and posed the same cost/benefit analysis. I can't believe I am saying this, but President Obama was spot on with this issue.

GOO

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #292 on: September 15, 2021, 04:37:42 PM »
That issue is true of all colleges the cost increases have exceeded inflation at exponential rates.  Like many things, it is likely caused by many smaller factors that add up: More professors, smaller teaching loads on professors, higher salaries to compete, more administration positions, more student services, new and better buildings and residence halls, etc, with better amenities, more federal money available, yes - better food options, etc, etc, etc.  They all add up. 

muwarrior69

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #293 on: September 15, 2021, 05:01:19 PM »
The cost of education has gone up exponentially compared to inflation.  But the value of a degree compared to not having a degree has also changed in favor of having a degree.  The gap is larger and the jobs without a degree tend to be a lot worse than those from the mid-1980s and before.  Can't just go work at the local union factory anymore. Yes, there are trade jobs that pay well, and they are viable options for many, but also the type of jobs that many can't do at a high level past the age of mid-50s at best. 

The college picture is not as bleak as many make it out to be. But this is a transition period where private schools have to become more efficient, focused, and offer scholarships like never before. The new online competition is just getting started and will force many schools to get smaller and cheaper for the students.

For very good students for tuition and room and board, Marquette ends up being about 15K to 20K more expensive per year than UW Madison only taking into account the initial discount Marquette gives for applying and being accepted.  Not bad, but still a problem if your middle or upper middle class or have a few kids. UW Madison does not offer such discounts and fewer scholarship opportunities.  If you also get need based aid or additional scholarships (competitive scholarships) the cost can be equal or better and UW Madison.  Very doable for many. 

If you want to make Marquette really competitive for more great students, they have to compete on money, which equals more and better scholarships.  Get the cost well below the public school competition for very good students. Religious differentiation has become less and less meaningful.  To differentiate on things other than costs, size, ethics, specific programs, and ratings which means get better students, get smaller, and offer more money.

I'd say Marquette should put money into scholarships and less into the physical plant. 

As for the Pere Marquette Awards, which one gets just for applying, there is a link that tells you how much to expect. Not sure exactly how accurate this is.  But for example some with a 4.0 with no test score would get about 18K off the sticker price. Throw in a 26 on the ACT and you get 22K off the sticker price, even before applying for other aid.
See link:
https://tcc.ruffalonl.com/Marquette%20University/Freshman-Students

Why not just reduce the total college cost for every student.

Galway Eagle

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #294 on: September 15, 2021, 05:06:15 PM »
Why not just reduce the total college cost for every student.

Because people are more likely to buy something expensive if they feel they've gotten a deal. Think about 50% off a name brand suit vs Walmart.
Maigh Eo for Sam

muwarrior69

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #295 on: September 15, 2021, 05:26:50 PM »
Because people are more likely to buy something expensive if they feel they've gotten a deal. Think about 50% off a name brand suit vs Walmart.

So calculus at MU is of a higher quality than calculus at UWM? How so?

21Jumpstreet

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #296 on: September 15, 2021, 05:34:13 PM »
I don't know if people still pay much attention to the US News rankings, but anyone who thinks they have any worth should listen to Malcolm Gladwell's two-part "Revisionist History" eviscerating US News,its methodology and the rankings' value.   

100%

Galway Eagle

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #297 on: September 15, 2021, 05:41:40 PM »
So calculus at MU is of a higher quality than calculus at UWM? How so?

I honestly don't know. That's just the theory that was explained to me.
Maigh Eo for Sam

Newsdreams

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #298 on: September 15, 2021, 06:16:27 PM »
So calculus at MU is of a higher quality than calculus at UWM? How so?
Well at least back in 1980 yes, the dude who wrote the calculus book that was even used at MIT was my teacher.  ;D

jficke13

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Re: New Frosh Class at MU
« Reply #299 on: September 15, 2021, 07:46:38 PM »
Because people are more likely to buy something expensive if they feel they've gotten a deal. Think about 50% off a name brand suit vs Walmart.

That and because the same reason that the insulin people “charge” thousands for their product. It’s a scam meant to hit insurance companies but ends up catching uninsured people in the grift.

Colleges “charge” astronomical prices and some suckers pay sticker no matter how much everyone wants to focus on the typical “discount”

 

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