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Author Topic: What's the word on Garcia?  (Read 63315 times)

Dr. Blackheart

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #150 on: June 11, 2021, 06:07:16 PM »
Rico is taking a whole lot of people for a ride on the teal train

Choo choo


Lennys Tap

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #151 on: June 11, 2021, 08:04:18 PM »
Goalpost shift, consecutive wins, and winning % (your original argument) are two different things.

Larry, and the last guy off the bench have the same winning % (your metric).  Winning % is a terrible metric for judging individual success or talent.  No one is saying that Chones isn't great, he unquestionably is, but by only bringing up winning % in games he played in (again, your metric), all your doing is saying that he played on great teams.  There is plenty of substance you can use to say that Chones was a great individual player, without bringing up meaningless stats.  The fact that you're trying to pad his resume with meaningless stats kind of takes away from the actual substance.

Goal post shift? So consecutive games won count but not winning %? Well, in Jim’s 50-1 record there’s a 28 game winning streak and a 22 game winning streak that only stopped because he left. I never said being the star of two teams that went a combined 50-1 was the ONLY measure of how great a player he was. But to opine that leading two teams to a combined 50-1 record that had to necessarily (this is math) include either 2 long winning streaks or 1 gargantuan one is meaningless is just being stubborn - and dense.

JakeBarnes

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #152 on: June 11, 2021, 08:37:16 PM »
I think dawson is gonna be a train conductor
Assume what I say should be in teal if it doesn't pass the smell test for you.


Its DJOver

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #153 on: June 11, 2021, 08:47:11 PM »
Goal post shift? So consecutive games won count but not winning %? Well, in Jim’s 50-1 record there’s a 28 game winning streak and a 22 game winning streak that only stopped because he left. I never said being the star of two teams that went a combined 50-1 was the ONLY measure of how great a player he was. But to opine that leading two teams to a combined 50-1 record that had to necessarily (this is math) include either 2 long winning streaks or 1 gargantuan one is meaningless is just being stubborn - and dense.

Man, you just don’t get it.  Winning % is a team stat and should be used to justify team accomplishments.  The team won a lot when Chones was here, Chones was a part of that, but he was only part of the team winning, individuals do not win games by themselves.  Use team stats to emphasize how good a team was, use individual stats to emphasize how good an individual was. 

Using team stats to emphasize how good an individual was can be incredibly misleading.  For example, in 2017-18 we had the third best team three-point shooting percentage in the country.  Harry Froling was a part of that team, so Harry Froling can say that he was part of the third best three-point shooting team in the country, and that would be 100% true.  By only looking at a team stat to justify an individual’s skill/accomplishments, you would come to the conclusion that Froling is a good three-point shooter, however, when you look at individual stats, you would see that is not the case.

Only looking at team winning % during a player’s tenure can be just as misleading as only looking at team three-point percentage (this is why we look for further context when we see Dylan Flood at the top of the winning % list).  Chones was a great player and has a great individual stats to back that up (averaging a double-double both years).  Bogging his resume down with stats that can be misleading is a disservice to both his skills and his legacy.

Nukem2

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #154 on: June 11, 2021, 08:51:56 PM »
Man, you just don’t get it.  Winning % is a team stat and should be used to justify team accomplishments.  The team won a lot when Chones was here, Chones was a part of that, but he was only part of the team winning, individuals do not win games by themselves.  Use team stats to emphasize how good a team was, use individual stats to emphasize how good an individual was. 

Using team stats to emphasize how good an individual was can be incredibly misleading.  For example, in 2017-18 we had the third best team three-point shooting percentage in the country.  Harry Froling was a part of that team, so Harry Froling can say that he was part of the third best three-point shooting team in the country, and that would be 100% true.  By only looking at a team stat to justify an individual’s skill/accomplishments, you would come to the conclusion that Froling is a good three-point shooter, however, when you look at individual stats, you would see that is not the case.

Only looking at team winning % during a player’s tenure can be just as misleading as only looking at team three-point percentage (this is why we look for further context when we see Dylan Flood at the top of the winning % list).  Chones was a great player and has a great individual stats to back that up (averaging a double-double both years).  Bogging his resume down with stats that can be misleading is a disservice to both his skills and his legacy.
Really get your point. But, MU went 4-4 the rest of that season after Jim left.  He was a HUGE part of those #s.

Lennys Tap

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #155 on: June 11, 2021, 09:06:39 PM »
Really get your point. But, MU went 4-4 the rest of that season after Jim left.  He was a HUGE part of those #s.

Actually MU went 3-4 after Jim left. So our winning % WITH Jim was .980. WITHOUT him, .428. In his two seasons we lost 4 times as many games without him as we did with him - in more than 7 times fewer games. But according to DJO that’s all just a meaningless coincidence. Sure.

Its DJOver

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #156 on: June 11, 2021, 09:08:55 PM »
Really get your point. But, MU went 4-4 the rest of that season after Jim left.  He was a HUGE part of those #s.

Absolutely agree, he was a huge part of the team, but I think again, more context is needed than just a record without him.  I think a similar (although not identical) situation is the end of the 08-09 season.  After Dom got hurt, we went 2-6 to close the season (23-4 before his injury).  That team still had Wes, Jerel, Zar and Jimmy.  It was still a talented team, but losing an important player clearly hurt significantly more than just the points and assists (or board in Chones case). 72 still had a ton of talent, and if they had more time, I'm confident that they would have figured it out, but that's just the way sports go.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 09:12:10 PM by Its DJOver »

Its DJOver

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #157 on: June 11, 2021, 09:11:37 PM »
Actually MU went 3-4 after Jim left. So our winning % WITH Jim was .980. WITHOUT him, .428. In his two seasons we lost 4 times as many games without him as we did with him - in more than 7 times fewer games. But according to DJO that’s all just a meaningless coincidence. Sure.

See my above post.  In 08-09 we lost more games without Dom than with him (.851 win percentage down to .25).  Dom was clearly on the same level as Chones.

bilsu

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #158 on: June 11, 2021, 09:38:12 PM »
The only game Chones lost was McGuire's fault. He got out coached by Ohio St.'s coach, who scouted MU. He placed his defender where Meminger was catching the ball on the inbounds pass resulting in Meminger getting three offensive fouls. This was the only game in Meminger's career that he fouled out of. McGuire failed to make a game change once Ohio St. was setting up to take the charge. For those of you that were not born yet, Meminger would take the inbounds pass near the sideline and turn and race up court. Ohio St. placed a defender, so that when Meminger turned to run up the court would run into the Ohio St. defender. The NCAA changed the rule during the off season to require a defender to give a step for the offensive player receiving the pass. In today's game Meminger would not be called for a charge, because of this rule change. Even with that MU had a three point lead with the ball with about 2 minutes to go. There was no shot clock, so there was no reason to shoot. Jim Chones took two 5ft jump turnaround shots and missed both and Ohio St. scored after both misses. Had Meminger not fouled out, I am sure McGuire would of just let him dribble the ball until he was fouled. Meminger was the best ball handler that ever played for MU. Even with Meminger out we should of been holding the ball.

Two year's before that we lost to Purdue in overtime for a chance to go to final four. MU had the ball and called a timeout. McGuire worried that it would be too much pressure for a sophomore to handle the ball in that situation had Thompson bring the ball up court instead of Meminger. Thompson had the ball stolen and we lost on a buzzer beater by Rick Mount. As great as Al was he did make bad decisions including getting two technicals against NC St. in the 1974 championship game.

bilsu

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #159 on: June 11, 2021, 09:39:55 PM »
See my above post.  In 08-09 we lost more games without Dom than with him (.851 win percentage down to .25).  Dom was clearly on the same level as Chones.
Dom was very important, but he was not on the same level as Chones.

MUDPT

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #160 on: June 11, 2021, 09:44:43 PM »
In 09 they played after/ during Dom’s injury:

Uconn 1 seed
Louisville 1 seed
Pitt 1 seed
Syracuse 3 seed, BET champs
Nova 3 seed, F4

Schedule had something to do with those 6 losses.

Its DJOver

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #161 on: June 11, 2021, 09:45:45 PM »
Dom was very important, but he was not on the same level as Chones.

Exactly, more context is needed than just win/loss.  If the program completely fell apart in 72-73, I think Chones would be seen even higher than he already is, but 4/5 key players in 73 were around in 72 and we went 21-3.  McNeill, McGuire, Frazier, and Washington were all left over from 72, and they showed that while Chones was a large part of the success that year, those 4 could still win quite a bit without him.  Sure adding Luke helped too, but it's not like 72 was Chones + the scrubs, there were 2 future NBAers in there as well.

Its DJOver

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #162 on: June 11, 2021, 09:47:33 PM »
In 09 they played after/ during Dom’s injury:

Uconn 1 seed
Louisville 1 seed
Pitt 1 seed
Syracuse 3 seed, BET champs
Nova 3 seed, F4

Schedule had something to do with those 6 losses.

We were also ranked 8th in the country when Dom went down.  I would wager that we would have been favored in 5 of 8 remaining games had he been 100%
« Last Edit: June 11, 2021, 09:52:09 PM by Its DJOver »

Galway Eagle

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #163 on: June 11, 2021, 10:33:07 PM »
In 09 they played after/ during Dom’s injury:

Uconn 1 seed
Louisville 1 seed
Pitt 1 seed
Syracuse 3 seed, BET champs
Nova 3 seed, F4

Schedule had something to do with those 6 losses.

You're right but can't gauge that retroactively. If we had James and won then maybe the seeds aren't as they are and we're >6
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Lennys Tap

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #164 on: June 11, 2021, 10:34:23 PM »
We were also ranked 8th in the country when Dom went down.  I would wager that we would have been favored in 5 of 8 remaining games had he been 100%

We were a underdog in the UCONN game at the Bradley Center in the game he got hurt. At Pitt and at Louisville no way we’re favored Dom or no Dom. Home against Syracuse = likely a small (2 point?) favorite. Favorite in the 2 games we actually won (St John’s and Utah St), probably a pick ‘em vs Villanova and Missouri with Dom.

The only games we would have been a solid favorite were the 2 we actually won.


MU82

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #165 on: June 11, 2021, 10:37:05 PM »
So ... who had more "impact" in his two seasons at Marquette, Chones or Wade?

Chones definitely had the better winning percentage, but Wade might have had an accomplishment or two as well.

My answer would be that both were tremendous players but Wade ended up having the more meaningful results, including a dominant performance in the game that got Marquette to only the third Final Four in school history. Others are free to disagree, though.
"Well, it took me 17 years to get 3,000 hits in baseball ... and I did it in one afternoon on the golf course."

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Its DJOver

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #166 on: June 11, 2021, 10:43:19 PM »
We were a underdog in the UCONN game at the Bradley Center in the game he got hurt. At Pitt and at Louisville no way we’re favored Dom or no Dom. Home against Syracuse = likely a small (2 point?) favorite. Favorite in the 2 games we actually won (St John’s and Utah St), probably a pick ‘em vs Villanova and Missouri with Dom.

The only games we would have been a solid favorite were the 2 we actually won.

Agree, think we'd have been dogs against UCONN, Pitt, and 'Ville regardless (although I do think a healthy Dom could have been enough to swing the 4 point loss against 'Ville).  Think he would have made the difference against Cuse, Nova and Missou as well, although we'll never know.

Point is, losing Dom hurt more than just the stats he provided.  Team had to learn to play differently with him out, same way the team had to learn to play without a key player in '72.  The more time they would have had to figure it out, the more confident I'd be about their chances in the tourney.  Unfortunately, losing that key player happened late in the season.

The Lens

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #167 on: June 12, 2021, 07:37:16 AM »
Can we talk about that UConn game for a minute?

We’re top 10 in the country, Buzz has a huge profile piece in the New York Times and UConn was in town.  Damn that was fun.  I miss that crap.
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Herman Cain

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #168 on: June 12, 2021, 08:10:39 AM »
Can we talk about that UConn game for a minute?

We’re top 10 in the country, Buzz has a huge profile piece in the New York Times and UConn was in town.  Damn that was fun.  I miss that crap.
Those were fun times, they will be coming back soon. 
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Ruby

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #169 on: June 12, 2021, 09:34:32 AM »
The '09 team was ready to conpete vs. the big boy teams that year. I remember the excitement and anticipation because MU was finally on a level to be a serious contender and would be severely tested the rest of the season. It was exciting and as a lifelong fan who was too young to remember the Al years, I was elated. It was going to be tough and fun. Win or lose MU was ready.

The instant Dom pulled himself out of the game it was like, "Damn, gone." Not that MU was now a bad team. They were just no longer (in my perception) at the elite level. All the work of the previous 3 years of building was gone. The moment was passed.

MuggsyB

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #170 on: June 12, 2021, 09:50:27 AM »
The '09 team was ready to conpete vs. the big boy teams that year. I remember the excitement and anticipation because MU was finally on a level to be a serious contender and would be severely tested the rest of the season. It was exciting and as a lifelong fan who was too young to remember the Al years, I was elated. It was going to be tough and fun. Win or lose MU was ready.

The instant Dom pulled himself out of the game it was like, "Damn, gone." Not that MU was now a bad team. They were just no longer (in my perception) at the elite level. All the work of the previous 3 years of building was gone. The moment was passed.

The most depressed I have ever been at an MU basketball game.  That '09 team was in prime position to make a deep run in the tournament.  Man....that team was fun to watch.  What a terrible blow to Dom and MI hoops.  The standing O Dom got  on Sr. Day, coming out on the floor with his crutches, still gives me chills.

Herman Cain

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #171 on: June 12, 2021, 09:56:03 AM »
The most depressed I have ever been at an MU basketball game.  That '09 team was in prime position to make a deep run in the tournament.  Man....that team was fun to watch.  What a terrible blow to Dom and MI hoops.  The standing O Dom got  on Sr. Day, coming out on the floor with his crutches, still gives me chills.
Here is a great article on Dom from last year

https://bvmsports.com/2020/07/01/dominic-james-wright-and-family-make-it-back-to-the-u-s/
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willie warrior

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #172 on: June 12, 2021, 10:09:44 AM »
The only game Chones lost was McGuire's fault. He got out coached by Ohio St.'s coach, who scouted MU. He placed his defender where Meminger was catching the ball on the inbounds pass resulting in Meminger getting three offensive fouls. This was the only game in Meminger's career that he fouled out of. McGuire failed to make a game change once Ohio St. was setting up to take the charge. For those of you that were not born yet, Meminger would take the inbounds pass near the sideline and turn and race up court. Ohio St. placed a defender, so that when Meminger turned to run up the court would run into the Ohio St. defender. The NCAA changed the rule during the off season to require a defender to give a step for the offensive player receiving the pass. In today's game Meminger would not be called for a charge, because of this rule change. Even with that MU had a three point lead with the ball with about 2 minutes to go. There was no shot clock, so there was no reason to shoot. Jim Chones took two 5ft jump turnaround shots and missed both and Ohio St. scored after both misses. Had Meminger not fouled out, I am sure McGuire would of just let him dribble the ball until he was fouled. Meminger was the best ball handler that ever played for MU. Even with Meminger out we should of been holding the ball.

Two year's before that we lost to Purdue in overtime for a chance to go to final four. MU had the ball and called a timeout. McGuire worried that it would be too much pressure for a sophomore to handle the ball in that situation had Thompson bring the ball up court instead of Meminger. Thompson had the ball stolen and we lost on a buzzer beater by Rick Mount. As great as Al was he did make bad decisions including getting two technicals against NC St. in the 1974 championship game.
Meminger was a great ball handler, but two just as great or mayne greater were Dick Nixon who played in late 50s or early 60s and Sam Worthen. As well as Tony Miller

brewcity77

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #173 on: June 12, 2021, 10:30:04 AM »
The most depressed I have ever been at an MU basketball game.  That '09 team was in prime position to make a deep run in the tournament.  Man....that team was fun to watch.  What a terrible blow to Dom and MI hoops.  The standing O Dom got  on Sr. Day, coming out on the floor with his crutches, still gives me chills.

The biggest what if of my Marquette fandom. Even without James we had second half leads in 5 of the 6 losses (UConn, Pitt, Cuse, Nova, Mizzou) and were within a basket of Louisville with under a minute to play. We plausibly could've won all four of the regular season games, and considering 3/4 losses were to teams that earned 1-seeds, winning 2-3 would've likely put us in the 1-seed discussion with a better Big East tourney path and easier route to a second or even third weekend. Everything changed when Dom went down.

StillAWarrior

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Re: What's the word on Garcia?
« Reply #174 on: June 12, 2021, 10:30:41 AM »
So, what's the word on Garcia?
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