The perfect 10 man MU roster for 2021?

[CTWarrior]

For sure. I think people in this thread are having two different conversations. The conversation I'm having is taking a time machine, picking up players from past eras and plopping them into the NCAA/NBA today, not a what if greats from past eras had grown up in the current era.

Yeah, your probably right. 

Nobody thinks the guys from the 40s could hang with the guys from the 70s, so it stands to reason to think that the guys from the 70s could not hang with todays players.

[Galway Eagle]

Yeah, your probably right. 

Nobody thinks the guys from the 40s could hang with the guys from the 70s, so it stands to reason to think that the guys from the 70s could not hang with todays players.

This. Heck you can do the 50s. Why is nobody talking about Kojis and Rand? Heck Bill Russell referred to Rand as far and away the best college center he played.

[MU90620]

Shaq was a career 58% shooter. His second year in the league he shot 60% from the field and averaged 30. He was one of the most efficient high usage players in the history of the game.

I agree that players from the past could not be picked out of the past and fitted as is in today's game, but I believe that shaq was an exception.

[f/k/a humanlung]

Any 10 guys not being coached by Wojo?

[MU82]

Y'all are crackin' me up about Shaq.

Yep, all these GMs would say, "We don't want a 7-1 stud of an athlete who could get 10-15 dunks a game for us and make our defense all but impenetrable."

And good point by wades about Shaq not spending 3 years at LSU today. He'd have come out after his freshman year, like everybody else does now.

But anyway, who would even want him?

[The Sultan]

Y'all are crackin' me up about Shaq.

Yep, all these GMs would say, "We don't want a 7-1 stud of an athlete who could get 10-15 dunks a game for us and make our defense all but impenetrable."

No one said this.

[MU82]

Shaq. He'd go undrafted in 2021 cuz' he couldn't hit the 3 like that multiple champion Porzingis!

[brewcity77]

I don't know.  Shaq coming out of LSU was not some big lumbering dude.  He was plenty athletic and ran the floor well.  He was Zion before Zion (who, by the way, went 1 overall and has shown no willingness - or need - to shoot from further than 8 feet out).

I also don't think Shaq would've spent 3 years in college if he was a freshman in the 2020s.  It was not nearly as common to be one and done as it is now.  And bulking up and dominating with his back to the basket was how the game was played then, so it was the best thing for him.  In today's game, with all of the training and focus on what you're eating, etc., he would've had no incentive to bulk up like that.  Sure, he still could've.  But like Zion, that would be his choice.  I don't think he would've had trouble staying thinner and running the court like he did in his Magic days if he was playing today.

As far as Zion goes, he shot 33.8% from three at Duke on 71 attempts. He demonstrated that the ability to shoot could be coached into his game. So far, he's a 36.4% three point shooter in the NBA with more career attempts in 2 shortened seasons than Shaq had in his life.

I don't care how much time Shaq would spend in college now, the question asked was about "21-year-old Shaq." I didn't make up the qualifications, I just addressed the question. And as TAMU said, this is about taking the player and inserting them into today's game, not retroactively changing their diet.

I'm not saying Shaq couldn't play at all in today's game, but a 7'1", 300+ pound center that is relatively immobile is simply not the franchise-changing piece that Cade Cunningham, Jalen Suggs, Eric Mobley, Jalen Green, or Jonathan Kuminga would be. In some years, Shaq would be a top pick even in today's NBA. But the initial question was about Cade vs Shaq, and the subsequent question was "anyone else?" Well, the 2021 draft is loaded at the top with 5 players that are exactly what GMs in 2021 are looking for. Maybe last year Shaq would've went #1. But this year? No. No chance. Hell no. Anthony Edwards, who was #1 last year, wouldn't be top-5 this year. This is an excellent, top-heavy draft with numerous potential superstar players that are ideally suited to excel in today's NBA. No one is taking a 1990s relic-style player over any of those guys.

[MuggsyB]

As far as Zion goes, he shot 33.8% from three at Duke on 71 attempts. He demonstrated that the ability to shoot could be coached into his game. So far, he's a 36.4% three point shooter in the NBA with more career attempts in 2 shortened seasons than Shaq had in his life.

I don't care how much time Shaq would spend in college now, the question asked was about "21-year-old Shaq." I didn't make up the qualifications, I just addressed the question. And as TAMU said, this is about taking the player and inserting them into today's game, not retroactively changing their diet.

I'm not saying Shaq couldn't play at all in today's game, but a 7'1", 300+ pound center that is relatively immobile is simply not the franchise-changing piece that Cade Cunningham, Jalen Suggs, Eric Mobley, Jalen Green, or Jonathan Kuminga would be. In some years, Shaq would be a top pick even in today's NBA. But the initial question was about Cade vs Shaq, and the subsequent question was "anyone else?" Well, the 2021 draft is loaded at the top with 5 players that are exactly what GMs in 2021 are looking for. Maybe last year Shaq would've went #1. But this year? No. No chance. Hell no. Anthony Edwards, who was #1 last year, wouldn't be top-5 this year. This is an excellent, top-heavy draft with numerous potential superstar players that are ideally suited to excel in today's NBA. No one is taking a 1990s relic-style player over any of those guys.

"Immobile" is a bit strong brewcity.  I think you're also forgetting that no one could do what Shaq did in the post both in college and the NBA.  Do you really think a fully healthy Nova or Creighton could possibly stop Shaq from scoring at will?  Shaq was much more skilled than people give him credit for.  He dunked a lot because he was quick and ridiculously strong.  But his overall fundamentals besides outside shooting were very solid and he would dominate imo in a similar way to Zion or Giannis.  The man was a natural 305 with explosiveness and power.  Of course he got too heavy eventually but I think he would without question go ahead of every person you mention in this draft.

[withoutbias]

Some people obviously did not watch Shaq before the middle of his time with the Lakers. If you dropped his 21 year old self into college hoops today he absolutely dominates it and would be at the very worst the second pick in this draft.

[MU82]

Shaq was not immobile. He was not some lumbering lummox. He wasn't George Mikan. I'm not sure which Shaq folks we're watching back in the early '90s, but I was watching an athletic freak who ran like a guard and was a shotblocking, rebounding, dunking machine.

I say that early-90s Shaq would have gone No. 1 in the 2021 draft ... and I have just as much "proof" as those who seriously believe he wouldn't have — or wouldn't even have been a top-5 pick!

This stuff is cracking' me up.

[MuggsyB]

Excuse me but can you even imagine college bigs guarding a young Shaq??  It would be laughable.  And if your answer is they would foul him how many coaches would want their team in the penalty after 7 possessions?  Would you draft Usain Bolt over a cheetah in a race brewcity?  Please. 

[brewcity77]

"Immobile" is a bit strong brewcity.  I think you're also forgetting that no one could do what Shaq did in the post both in college and the NBA.  Do you really think a fully healthy Nova or Creighton could possibly stop Shaq from scoring at will?  Shaq was much more skilled than people give him credit for.  He dunked a lot because he was quick and ridiculously strong.  But his overall fundamentals besides outside shooting were very solid and he would dominate imo in a similar way to Zion or Giannis.  The man was a natural 305 with explosiveness and power.  Of course he got too heavy eventually but I think he would without question go ahead of every person you mention in this draft.

Immobile isn't strong when comparing him to Cade Cunningham, Jalen Suggs, Eric Mobley, Jalen Green, and Jonathan Kuminga. And who cares what he could do to 'Nova or Creighton? We're talking about the modern NBA. A league where centers like Jokic, Sabonis, Davis, and Vucevic can and do shoot threes. In the past 5 drafts, just 3 centers have been taken top-5: Dragan Bender, DeAndre Ayton, and James Wiseman. All of them have more career three point attempts than Shaq. That's just a part of the game now. Sure, there are rarities like Rudy Gobert, but he was drafted 27th and that was before the GSW revolution that changed the game so dynamically where every team was looking for shooters at every position.

[MuggsyB]

Immobile isn't strong when comparing him to Cade Cunningham, Jalen Suggs, Eric Mobley, Jalen Green, and Jonathan Kuminga. And who cares what he could do to 'Nova or Creighton? We're talking about the modern NBA. A league where centers like Jokic, Sabonis, Davis, and Vucevic can and do shoot threes. In the past 5 drafts, just 3 centers have been taken top-5: Dragan Bender, DeAndre Ayton, and James Wiseman. All of them have more career three point attempts than Shaq. That's just a part of the game now. Sure, there are rarities like Rudy Gobert, but he was drafted 27th and that was before the GSW revolution that changed the game so dynamically where every team was looking for shooters at every position.

I will agree to disagree.  And as an aside the real Muggsy Bogues made all the players you mention look slow.  He had the greatest zoomability in history and his head was always up surveying the floor.

[JWags85]

Sure, there are rarities like Rudy Gobert, but he was drafted 27th and that was before the GSW revolution that changed the game so dynamically where every team was looking for shooters at every position.

FWIW, Shaq was better and more dominant as a Rookie and 2nd year player than Gobert is now, much less when he was drafted.  Gobert has stone hands.  Shaq isn't as lanky, but he was wildly more explosive and athletic.  I think Young Shaq could have done everything Ayton does that got him drafted that high.

[brewcity77]

FWIW, Shaq was better and more dominant as a Rookie and 2nd year player than Gobert is now, much less when he was drafted.  Gobert has stone hands.  Shaq isn't as lanky, but he was wildly more explosive and athletic.  I think Young Shaq could have done everything Ayton does that got him drafted that high.

Ayton wouldn't be drafted that high in this draft class either.

[MuggsyB]

Ayton wouldn't be drafted that high in this draft class either.

Would you draft Zion or Giannis over Suggs or CC?

[withoutbias]

https://youtu.be/MTQD3C8Muco

There is nothing immobile about Shaq at all. Shaq wouldn't have had to change his diet at all. Zion couldn't shoot. Went 1 overall. Zion's 33 total 3 pointers don't mean a ton. Nobody was drafting him because he proved he could shoot. His form was hideous. They were drafting him because he was an absolute monster. Just like Shaq. Who is also 6 inches taller than Zion.  Ben Simmons couldn't shoot. Went 1 overall.

People's memories of Shaq are off. Drop 21 year old Shaq into today's college game and he's the most dominant college player since the 70s. And he's going 1 overall.

[MU82]

https://youtu.be/MTQD3C8Muco

There is nothing immobile about Shaq at all. Shaq wouldn't have had to change his diet at all. Zion couldn't shoot. Went 1 overall. Zion's 33 total 3 pointers don't mean a ton. Nobody was drafting him because he proved he could shoot. His form was hideous. They were drafting him because he was an absolute monster. Just like Shaq. Who is also 6 inches taller than Zion.  Ben Simmons couldn't shoot. Went 1 overall.

People's memories of Shaq are off. Drop 21 year old Shaq into today's college game and he's the most dominant college player since the 70s. And he's going 1 overall.

Obviously.

Every time Zion hoists a 3, Van Gundy probably mutters a profanity under his breath.

Shaq was a 7-1 athletic freak who ran the court and dominated the lane on both ends of the court. He would have excelled in today's game because he would have helped his 3-point shooting teammates by demanding defensive attention and he would have benefited greatly from the court being spaced.

But yeah, 3 or 5 or 10 or 20 GMs would have passed on a once-in-a-generation talent because he didn't shoot 3s. Hilarious.

[MuggsyB]

Obviously.

Every time Zion hoists a 3, Van Gundy probably mutters a profanity under his breath.

Shaq was a 7-1 athletic freak who ran the court and dominated the lane on both ends of the court. He would have excelled in today's game because he would have helped his 3-point shooting teammates by demanding defensive attention and he would have benefited greatly from the court being spaced.

But yeah, 3 or 5 or 10 or 20 GMs would have passed on a once-in-a-generation talent because he didn't shoot 3s. Hilarious.

We completely agree here MU82.  I'm stunned that anyone could think otherwise.   I mean would Garza go ahead of Shaq cause he shoots 3's?  Or Garcia?

[brewcity77]

Would you draft Zion or Giannis over Suggs or CC?

For the easy one, Giannis, no, and neither would any GM in the the league. We're talking as Shaq came into the league as a 21-year old player. Giannis wasn't a lottery pick in his own draft, and that was a pretty weak draft at the top. He turned out well, but no one expected him to be what he is. There were a lot of Bucks fans that weren't happy with that pick

Zion would be in the mix, but I wouldn't have taken him #1 in his own draft. I thought at the time Ja Morant was the right pick, but that's mainly because I don't think Williamson's knees will hold up for 15 years. In addition, Zion showed the ability to shoot threes, so I'd say he's more likely to be able to adapt to the game as it is than someone like Shaq. When we're talking specifically about Cunningham, I think a 6'8", 220-lb PG that does everything he does is perfect for the current NBA, especially when you see how well he's shot the ball this year. His vision, length, and that he doesn't need to always dominate the ball are the kind of qualities you want in a lead player.

Zion for me might've gone 2, might've gone 3, but I think Cade is just as much of a unicorn player as Zion but with a better game-suited skillset. While Zion's a great talent, Cade is not just a great talent but has the overall skillset at the most important position and the ability to guard well above his position. Overall, as prospects, I think the top-5 in this particular draft are really well suited for the game as it is today. I think this draft will be remembered similarly to how the best draft classes are remembered. Think 2003, 1996, maybe even 1984, when we look back in 20 years.

[MuggsyB]

For the easy one, Giannis, no, and neither would any GM in the the league. We're talking as Shaq came into the league as a 21-year old player. Giannis wasn't a lottery pick in his own draft, and that was a pretty weak draft at the top. He turned out well, but no one expected him to be what he is. There were a lot of Bucks fans that weren't happy with that pick

Zion would be in the mix, but I wouldn't have taken him #1 in his own draft. I thought at the time Ja Morant was the right pick, but that's mainly because I don't think Williamson's knees will hold up for 15 years. In addition, Zion showed the ability to shoot threes, so I'd say he's more likely to be able to adapt to the game as it is than someone like Shaq. When we're talking specifically about Cunningham, I think a 6'8", 220-lb PG that does everything he does is perfect for the current NBA, especially when you see how well he's shot the ball this year. His vision, length, and that he doesn't need to always dominate the ball are the kind of qualities you want in a lead player.

Zion for me might've gone 2, might've gone 3, but I think Cade is just as much of a unicorn player as Zion but with a better game-suited skillset. While Zion's a great talent, Cade is not just a great talent but has the overall skillset at the most important position and the ability to guard well above his position. Overall, as prospects, I think the top-5 in this particular draft are really well suited for the game as it is today. I think this draft will be remembered similarly to how the best draft classes are remembered. Think 2003, 1996, maybe even 1984, when we look back in 20 years.

If you knew Giannis would become what he is wouid you take him over Suggs and CC?  Because Giannis still can't shoot and I wouldn't say his  game is suited for this era. 

I understand your overall point but I don't think you're taking into account how a guy as dominant as Shaq would change the geometry of an offense.  He would open up wide open space.  Davis and Embiid, when they own the paint, create all sorts of opportunities.   And they're very good post players, but not utterly unstoppable like Shaq was in his prime.  Remember Shaq obliterated much bigger guys than we see in this era..

If he was fed down low he would easily be able to score one one one.  If teams didn't double, or perhaps triple, we're talking bucket, after bucket, after bucket, after bucket, or hack a Shaq.   You are underestimating his physical prowess.  They could not stop the guy at all. 

[ATL MU Warrior]

If you knew Giannis would become what he is wouid you take him over Suggs and CC?  Because Giannis still can't shoot and I wouldn't say his  game is suited for this era. 

I understand your overall point but I don't think you're taking into account how a guy as dominant as Shaq would change the geometry of an offense.  He would open up wide open space.  Davis and Embiid, when they own the paint, create all sorts of opportunities.   And they're very good post players, but not utterly unstoppable like Shaq was in his prime.  Remember Shaq obliterated much bigger guys than we see in this era..

If he was fed down low he would easily be able to score one one one.  If teams didn't double, or perhaps triple, we're talking bucket, after bucket, after bucket, after bucket, or hack a Shaq.   You are underestimating his physical prowess.  They could not stop the guy at all.

Shaq was likely the most physically dominant player in the history of basketball, at least in the modern era.  Agree with your last paragraph 100%.  If guys like Davis, Wiseman and Ayton were recent #1 picks, Shaq would clearly be as well even though his skillset was far more limited.

[MU82]

Shaq was likely the most physically dominant player in the history of basketball, at least in the modern era.  Agree with your last paragraph 100%.  If guys like Davis, Wiseman and Ayton were recent #1 picks, Shaq would clearly be as well even though his skillset was far more limited.

You're right about Shaq's "skillset" being more limited, but the skills he had were once-in-a-generation, and he knew how to use them -- even as a 21-year-old.

The more we all discuss this, the more I am convinced that Shaq would have been the No. 1 pick, and it would have barely been a debate in most draft rooms.

The notion that FIVE or more GMs would have passed on him ... sorry, I respect y'all a lot, but on this point that's just comical.

[The Sultan]

If you knew Giannis would become what he is wouid you take him over Suggs and CC?  Because Giannis still can't shoot and I wouldn't say his  game is suited for this era. 

I understand your overall point but I don't think you're taking into account how a guy as dominant as Shaq would change the geometry of an offense.  He would open up wide open space.  Davis and Embiid, when they own the paint, create all sorts of opportunities.   And they're very good post players, but not utterly unstoppable like Shaq was in his prime.  Remember Shaq obliterated much bigger guys than we see in this era..

If he was fed down low he would easily be able to score one one one.  If teams didn't double, or perhaps triple, we're talking bucket, after bucket, after bucket, after bucket, or hack a Shaq.   You are underestimating his physical prowess.  They could not stop the guy at all. 

brew isn't saying he sucks.  brew is saying he would take Cunningham first - as would I.  Of course he would be a high draft pick if he came out today.  I don't believe anyone is suggesting otherwise.