We are simply not talented

[NavinRJohnson]

I'm not saying fire Tom Crean and hire one of these guys. I'm saying if Tom Crean leaves I think the program survives just fine with one of these guys.  Honestly, I don't think there's a chance in hell Crean gets fired. He will have to leave to take another job.  My first choice would be Drew.  What he's done with Baylor is astounding. That program was as close to the death penalty as you could possibly be and here is having them contend for an NCAA berth.   Miller would be #2.   He's got the Pitt and BE ties, he can recruit.  Any five of these guys would be coming into a situation at Marquette that is easier to win then where they are at.  Again, thanks to Crean.

Agreed.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

I'd settle for a coach who is even marginally likable.

By the way, the job Scott Drew has done at Baylor is nothing short of a miracle. How is he getting good recruits to Waco on the heels of them almost dropping the basketball program?

Likable is just an opinion you have. There is really no point debating that stuff.

If the next coach comes in and has the same success that Crean has had, but is deemed "more likable" by you, then would that make you more happy?

If your answer is yes, then I can appreciate the honesty and passion.

But, let's not confuse likability and performance. Crean's performance hasn't been perfect this season, but his overall resume is very good (like him or not).

[augoman]

as I have stated a number of times before, while TC has glaring shortcomings (poor game coach, average recruiter), I believe he tries to compensate by working harder than anyone else.  Additionally, the combination of Bill Cords' hard work over the years, and MU's success in '03, has given us the ability to 1. build a state of the art practice facility, 2. enjoy great support at the BC,  3. finally join a top conference (gawd, those years as an independent were brutal), and 4. pay our coaching staff a ton of money.  As a result, we are in an enviable position, should we have to replace a coach.  That being said, I prefer to keep TC, as..."the bird in the hand"...

[MarquetteFan94]

Plenty of people like Crean.

Baylor must be getting all marquee, top 50 recruits that were offered by tons of other schools...and all of Drew's assistants must love him and never aspire to leave.

Those 5 coaches previously mentioned have 2 NCAA tournament wins......combined.

Without Wade, Crean has zero...combined.

There are well over 300 Active D-I coaches with ZERO Final Fours.....combined.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

There is also Bobby Cremins, who made a Final Four. And Bill Hodges. And Clem Haskins, Mike Davis, Jim Larranaga, Richard Williams, Paul Hewitt and Lon Kruger.

Hell, Steve Fischer won a national championship and has been to THREE Final Fours!!

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

There is also Bobby Cremins, who made a Final Four. And Bill Hodges. And Clem Haskins, Mike Davis, Jim Larranaga, Richard Williams, Paul Hewitt and Lon Kruger.

Hell, Steve Fischer won a national championship and has been to THREE Final Fours!!

I don't want to debate this... but I do have to say that Clem Haskins has never been to a Final 4.

They were "convicted" of cheating and that final 4 has been wiped off of the books.

So, while Clem was successful, he is also a proven cheater... so please don't act like he's a better choice than Crean (which seems to be the implication by listing him here).
 

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

There is also Bobby Cremins, who made a Final Four. And Bill Hodges. And Clem Haskins, Mike Davis, Jim Larranaga, Richard Williams, Paul Hewitt and Lon Kruger.

Hell, Steve Fischer won a national championship and has been to THREE Final Fours!!

I don't want to debate this... but I do have to say that Clem Haskins has never been to a Final 4.

They were "convicted" of cheating and that final 4 has been wiped off of the books.

So, while Clem was successful, he is also a proven cheater... so please don't act like he's a better choice than Crean (which seems to be the implication by listing him here).

Huh? I don't know how you can read my posts and come up with some of the interpretations that you do.

It's not that these guys are "better choices." They're not. But they've all made the Final Four. MarquetteFan94 seems to think the fact that a coach made a Final Four means that they walk on water. This list proves otherwise.

In the music world, many of them would be considered "one hit wonders." As of right now, Tom Crean's name belongs on that list.

By the way, Hewitt made the Final Four the year after Marquette and he's on the hot seat down there. And he's getting highly sought after recruits!

[jmayer1]

There is also Bobby Cremins, who made a Final Four. And Bill Hodges. And Clem Haskins, Mike Davis, Jim Larranaga, Richard Williams, Paul Hewitt and Lon Kruger.

Hell, Steve Fischer won a national championship and has been to THREE Final Fours!!

I don't want to debate this... but I do have to say that Clem Haskins has never been to a Final 4.

They were "convicted" of cheating and that final 4 has been wiped off of the books.

So, while Clem was successful, he is also a proven cheater... so please don't act like he's a better choice than Crean (which seems to be the implication by listing him here).

Huh? I don't know how you can read my posts and come up with some of the interpretations that you do.

It's not that these guys are "better choices." They're not. But they've all made the Final Four. MarquetteFan94 seems to think the fact that a coach made a Final Four means that they walk on water. This list proves otherwise.

In the music world, many of them would be considered "one hit wonders." As of right now, Tom Crean's name belongs on that list.

By the way, Hewitt made the Final Four the year after Marquette and he's on the hot seat down there. And he's getting highly sought after recruits!

Maybe Hewitt is on the hot seat because his conference record since that time is 23-32 (41.82 winning %).

FYI, Marquette over that same time (including the last year in CUSA) is 33-25 (56.9%).

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

There is also Bobby Cremins, who made a Final Four. And Bill Hodges. And Clem Haskins, Mike Davis, Jim Larranaga, Richard Williams, Paul Hewitt and Lon Kruger.

Hell, Steve Fischer won a national championship and has been to THREE Final Fours!!

I don't want to debate this... but I do have to say that Clem Haskins has never been to a Final 4.

They were "convicted" of cheating and that final 4 has been wiped off of the books.

So, while Clem was successful, he is also a proven cheater... so please don't act like he's a better choice than Crean (which seems to be the implication by listing him here).

Huh? I don't know how you can read my posts and come up with some of the interpretations that you do.

It's not that these guys are "better choices." They're not. But they've all made the Final Four. MarquetteFan94 seems to think the fact that a coach made a Final Four means that they walk on water. This list proves otherwise.

In the music world, many of them would be considered "one hit wonders." As of right now, Tom Crean's name belongs on that list.

By the way, Hewitt made the Final Four the year after Marquette and he's on the hot seat down there. And he's getting highly sought after recruits!

Hey, you're right... I'm just missing something here.

I'm going to bow out of this thread.

I don't have a personal dislike of our coach and I'm trying to be as objective as I can about his performance compared to previous MU coaches and other coaches in the college game.

I think he's doing a pretty nice job, but obviously not perfect.

I know some people will think that makes me some sort of apologist... and that's fine. We can all have differing opinions.

[ChicosBailBonds]

Actually Louisville was picked to win the Big East this year, not picked for 2nd.


Last night showed how loaded Louisville is.  To say "we are simply not talented" is a strange comment to read, however.  We're talented enough to be in 5th place in the Big East with 8 games to go...talented enough to hang with Duke and their all-americans and McDonalds players, talented enough to beat a Wisconsin.

[NavinRJohnson]

By the way, Hewitt made the Final Four the year after Marquette and he's on the hot seat down there. And he's getting highly sought after recruits!

Huh? Now I'm thoroughly confused. These are some of your comments from earlier today...

Who, other than Wesley, has he signed where he had to beat out another school?

Wade, Diener, Merritt...all were early in Crean's tenure...what have you done lately? As for McNeal and James...am I missing something? Were these guys highly recruited?

So Hewitt is getting those highly sought after recruits, yet they aren't winning games. According to you, Crean gets little more than cast offs and rejects, yet MU seems headed for its 3rd consecutive winning season in the Big East. I guess he must be doing something right. I guess sometimes what a guy does in college is perhaps a little more important than perceptions of those guys in HS. Or, is this the point where you change to argument again to Crean lacking class or being unlikeable?

[IAmMarquette]

I'd settle for a coach who is even marginally likable.

Proves your complete lack of objectivity. We get it. You don't like Crean as a person. That's fine. You don't have to. But to even pretend you're offering objective insight is ridiculous.

[ChicosBailBonds]

I'd settle for a coach who is even marginally likable.

Proves your complete lack of objectivity. We get it. You don't like Crean as a person. That's fine. You don't have to. But to even pretend you're offering objective insight is ridiculous.

PRN wants Wainwright or Joey Meyer   

[RawdogDX]

You want to know what a recruiting "bump" is from a Final Four appearance? Take a look at Louisville.

I will grant you that our junior class is a decent class -- not great as I don't think any of them would start for Louisville, but after our FF in 2003, here are our classes:

2003 class
James Matthews -- GONE
Carlton Christian -- GONE
Dameon Mason -- GONE
Brandon Bell -- GONE
(AN ENTIRE YEAR OF RECRUITING A COMPLETE WASTE OF TIME!!!)
 

You're right, why didn't we get a bump in our 2003 recruiting class?  Don't top recruits usually throw away their commitments and switch to a team that is in the final four after seeing who makes it?   

[NavinRJohnson]

As far as MU's lack of talent goes, here are some quote from PRN over the past couple months...

McNeal is a great player - January 21, 2008, 08:24:59 AM

Matthews has so much ability...probably more than James because of his size. - January 28, 2008, 04:49:10 PM

I really like Acker. He can hit a jumper, cause some problems with his quickness and change the pace of the game in spurts. He's a poor man's Cordell Henry.
I think he's the best transfer we've had since Robert Jackson - January 14, 2008, 10:06:03 AM

Put Butch with McNeal, James, Cubes, and Hayward and we're talking national championship contender. - December 10, 2007, 09:14:28 AM

Somebody must be getting through to these very talented guys!!  - December 08, 2007, 08:05:37 PM


At least he isn't fickle. We went from being one player away (replacing Matthews with Butch) from a National Title contender, to having a bunch of JV recruits in a remarkably short period of time. I respect a person's ability to realize his mistakes, but this stuff would make John Kerry blush.

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Awesome. Thanks for caring so much about me. I don't quite feel like spending time researching my undeniably impressive body of work, but it did seem to me that many of these things were taken out of context.

Wouldn't it have been much more honest if, for instance, you posted the entire contents of my post about McNeal?

McNeal is a great player, but he's been given too much freedom offensively since he got here. What player would be allowed to turn the ball over 6 times and stay in the game, as he did against Louisville?

Hayward should be a much more focal part of the offense than Jerel.

And I do like Acker. And he is our best transfer since Jackson. But his talent level is not on par with the rest of the Big East and doesn't represent a recruiting victory for Crean.

But again, thanks for spending so much time on me.

[NavinRJohnson]

but it did seem to me that many of these things were taken out of context.

Another John Kerry comparison seems appropriate here, but...Your point was that we are not talented. Exactly what important context did I leave out that misrepresented what you said? That Jerel McNeal is given too much freedom? What in that comment suggests a lack of talent? That Hayward should be more of a focal point of the offense than Jerel? Given the rest of your comments, that would seem to suggest more talent, not less.

Taken out of context...Never heard that one before. What are you going to do next, claim to be an alcoholic and check yourself into rehab like everyone else who says or does something stupid?

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Keep researching!!

[MarquetteFan94]

There is also Bobby Cremins, who made a Final Four. And Bill Hodges. And Clem Haskins, Mike Davis, Jim Larranaga, Richard Williams, Paul Hewitt and Lon Kruger.

Hell, Steve Fischer won a national championship and has been to THREE Final Fours!!

I don't want to debate this... but I do have to say that Clem Haskins has never been to a Final 4.

They were "convicted" of cheating and that final 4 has been wiped off of the books.

So, while Clem was successful, he is also a proven cheater... so please don't act like he's a better choice than Crean (which seems to be the implication by listing him here).

Huh? I don't know how you can read my posts and come up with some of the interpretations that you do.

It's not that these guys are "better choices." They're not. But they've all made the Final Four. MarquetteFan94 seems to think the fact that a coach made a Final Four means that they walk on water. This list proves otherwise.

In the music world, many of them would be considered "one hit wonders." As of right now, Tom Crean's name belongs on that list.

By the way, Hewitt made the Final Four the year after Marquette and he's on the hot seat down there. And he's getting highly sought after recruits!

Are you serious with that list?!

What's your point about listing:  Hewitt, Haskins, Cremins, Hodges, Davis, Krueger, Larranga?  Would you rather have ANY of them coaching at MU than Crean? 

Are you comparing our program to George Mason or the 1979 Indiana State team?!  Actually Hewitt is a perfect example and thanks for making a point against yourself....maintaining a high level of success is pretty damned tough in D-I basketball....G-Tech is a case in point.  Where's their "Final Four bump?" 

Look closely at what ALL of those programs did after their Final Four with the coaches you list....compare it to MU and tell me how it compares....especially 5 years after....we are 5th place in BE with 8 games left...man, the sky is falling.  Give me a frickin break.

My point on Crean making the Final Four was to point out how an impressive of an achievement that is....like it or not...you point out that that list of coaches all made the FF...how many of them made it back?  It's not easy is it? 

Ask Ray Meyer, Bob Huggins, John Calipari, Rick Majerus, Digger Phelps or Bill Self (oh, Self has never made it there) how easy it is to get back to the FF....take it easy, I'm not comparing Crean head-to-head with any of them but all those "one hit wonders" got there once also.....and haven't been back.

Although I'm sure you think MU should be there every year otherwise we need a new coach, right? 

You never answered my question....who would your preferred coach be for MU?!  All you do is criticize, complain, criticize, complain then you criticize some more.  What's your solution? 

[PuertoRicanNightmare]

Stephen Hawking -- I'm not comparing the Marquette program to Indiana St. or George Mason!!!! I'm comparing CREAN TO THOSE COACHES!! they are all guys who got lucky for one year. Is it that difficult to comprehend?

[NavinRJohnson]

PLAYERS: If you're reading this...stop taking ill advised three pointers. And get the ball to Hayward more often.

Stephen Hawking --...

I think you are nuts, completely nonobjective, and pretty much a whiny little _____ where Tom Crean is concerned, but I do have to give credit where due, and say that you remain one of the more witty guys on this board.

[MarquetteFan94]

Stephen Hawking -- I'm not comparing the Marquette program to Indiana St. or George Mason!!!! I'm comparing CREAN TO THOSE COACHES!! they are all guys who got lucky for one year. Is it that difficult to comprehend?

Lloyd Christmas - -No sh%t.....that's why I listed all of those other COACHES...not programs.....stop sitting on your head all day.  So, Crean got lucky in 2003?  Interesting.  Way to continue avoiding the question....who is your coach?  whine, complain, whine, complain....

[AlumKCof93]

Crean can't be compared to those other 1-hit wonders as Crean has been successful in the regular season since 2003.  A more appropriate comparison is Bobby Knight in his final years in Indiana where the team had success during the season, but then stumbled down the stretch and played awful in the NCAA tournament and were 1 and done.  Hopefully, MU is hitting its low point now, can re-group and build momentum as March approaches.

[Canned Goods n Ammo]

Damn!

This thread pulled me back in.

Didn't somebody do a Billy Donavon vs Crean thing a while back?

Now, I'm not one to just compare stats and win % and stuff... but didn't their numbers look somewhat similar at this point in their careers?

Early success, then a drop-off, then some good success, then great success (I'm paraphrasing).

But, I'm guessing Billy D. has his detractors as well... so...

[NavinRJohnson]

But, I'm guessing Billy D. has his detractors as well... so...

And why shouldn't he? It looks they aren't even going to come close to winning their third consecutive national title.