at what cost is MU undergrad worth it

[Warrior of Law]

Working with my a HS senior on colleges.  Wants to go to MU.  Decent, not great, student, was recently admitted with a 18K/yr scholarship; Bus Adm major.  The total cost still dwarfs the cost of a state school.  So, we need help.  In short, is a MU undergrad degree worth it, and if so, at what cost?

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

You are asking people to put objective numbers on something that isn't completely objective. 

If he really wants MU, how happy and involved would he be elsewhere?  (You are best able to answer that.)

Can he articulate why he wants MU?  What about it is what he is looking for?

Would he benefit from the positives of a MU education?  (Smaller class sizes, greater student involvement.)

Would he be as motivated to seek out student orgs, etc. at a larger state University?

Does he have a plan?  Can he make that plan work?

Can you afford it?

[#UnleashSean]

In the sense of money/debt? It's always best to do two years at a community College then transfer to any state school. You will finish with none to barely any debt.

However there's the whole college experience thing that needs to be addressed.

[MU Fan in Connecticut]

Working with my a HS senior on colleges.  Wants to go to MU.  Decent, not great, student, was recently admitted with a 18K/yr scholarship; Bus Adm major.  The total cost still dwarfs the cost of a state school.  So, we need help.  In short, is a MU undergrad degree worth it, and if so, at what cost?

It's up to your kid.  Wait until he/she gets a decision on everywhere applied.
MU was my now college sophomore's first choice by a wide amount.  She received the same offer from MU as your kid and decided to go elsewhere as she received an even substantially larger offer from (4) other universities.  She told my wife and I, that she really wanted to go to Marquette badly, but it just wasn't worth the extra $42k in student loans she would end up with.

I have a HS Senior also applying to schools now and Marquette is on her list also.  It's one of her top 3 choices at the moment so we'll see what happens.

[mu_hilltopper]

I think MU has some value above certain schools .. much the same as any luxury item would.   

Everyone gets to apply their own value system on how much value that is .. I don't think an MU degree has a material effect on your career/financial success, so the value is mostly in the atmospherics.

If MU's ecosystem, it's social aspects (while in college and out), it's class sizes and smaller stature .. if that floats your boat to $40k extra over four years, then there you go.  Will it "pay off" in the long run?   Depends on your comparison school, but likely not.

[Warrior of Law]

That's good feedback.  My kid has no concept of the impact of carrying such a huge debt for an undergraduate degree (nor does he qualify for enough federal loans).  For his parents, it would require lifestyle changes and a major revision of retirement planning. There's a lot of reasons to go to MU, we love everything about it, but it is worth the extra $20K/yr?  I have to imagine that there's plenty of folks in this boat, and I don't envy anyone in private higher education right now.

[mu_hilltopper]

If it's $80k extra and would require debt and lifestyle changes? 

100% no.

Reminds me when I chose a college.  My #1 school was Washington University which was $17k per year, versus MU at $10k. 

My dad said:  "Son, I love you.  But not that much."

[ChitownSpaceForRent]

Funnily enough, MU turned out to be cheaper than my state school in the long run.

I’ll say this though, as someone who didn’t necessarily love their college experience, it’s hard to put a value on a school that he would be truly.

If they love MU, will be involved there, and just get a good vibe from being on campus, fantastic. Guarantee you their grades will be better if they truly enjoy the school they pick.

I picked MU solely for a particular program (which I didn’t even end up finishing in) which I don’t want to say was the wrong decision for me, but probably wasn’t the best college experience I could have asked for.

[forgetful]

In the sense of money/debt? It's always best to do two years at a community College then transfer to any state school. You will finish with none to barely any debt.

However there's the whole college experience thing that needs to be addressed.

I always see people say this and emphasize that it is not necessarily true. The "Always" is false. It depends on the field you plan to major in. I would normally strongly advise against a 2-year community college for those interested in the sciences, or pre-med.

[muwarrior69]

I always see people say this and emphasize that it is not necessarily true. The "Always" is false. It depends on the field you plan to major in. I would normally strongly advise against a 2-year community college for those interested in the sciences, or pre-med.

My daughter went to community college her first two years and then went on to get her BA in accounting at a 4 year school. She hated all her accounting jobs an went on to get her BSN. All her ""science" requirement credits from the community college transferred so she only had to take 3 in hospital semesters to get her BSN in Nursing. By the way the BSN program was run through the community college system in association with participating hospitals here in New Jersey. Very affordable.

[GooooMarquette]

It's up to your kid.  Wait until he/she gets a decision on everywhere applied.

MU was my now college sophomore's first choice by a wide amount.  She received the same offer from MU as your kid and decided to go elsewhere as she received an even substantially larger offer from (4) other universities.  She told my wife and I, that she really wanted to go to Marquette badly, but it just wasn't worth the extra $42k in student loans she would end up with.

Same with my daughter. She had been in love with MU since she was a little kid, got accepted with a nice scholarship offer, and was in heaven. Then she looked at the $$$ in comparison to the other schools she applied to, and reluctantly ended up going elsewhere and graduating for about $50K less. And the other school happened to have a better program in my daughter's field, so it was a double win. Not that it would necessarily have been wrong for her to choose MU if the money was closer to equal - MU's program in her field was still quite good - but the money difference was too large to ignore.

She is now 2 years post graduation with a nice job, and is focusing on her 401k instead of student loan payments.

[dgies9156]

You are asking people to put objective numbers on something that isn't completely objective. 

If he really wants MU, how happy and involved would he be elsewhere?  (You are best able to answer that.)

Can he articulate why he wants MU?  What about it is what he is looking for?

Would he benefit from the positives of a MU education?  (Smaller class sizes, greater student involvement.)

Would he be as motivated to seek out student orgs, etc. at a larger state University?

Does he have a plan?  Can he make that plan work?

Can you afford it?

Brother Fluff:

You hit the nail on the head. It's about your students, what they need, what they want and whether the university's programs are equipped to deal with their needs and desires.

When I was 17, I wanted a heavily urban Midwestern environment. I lived in Tennessee long enough, in my mind, and had nightmares of missing teeth, marrying my cousin and talking funny for all time. I wanted to part of something that was real life and, candidly, exciting. Marquette and Milwaukee filled the bill nicely. My experience inside and outside the classroom was tremendous.

I majored in Journalism (and worked in the field for several years). I ended up with an MBA and working in business for the rest of my life. I wouldn't trade my Marquette experience for anything and would never have conquered MBA school had the Jesuits not instilled a strong thought discipline in me.

My children wanted something very different. Marquette didn't fill the bill and while I would have found a way had either wanted to go to MU, there were better options for them. One's out and the second is about to be out with degrees and both will be happy and productive in their lives ahead.

[forgetful]

My daughter went to community college her first two years and then went on to get her BA in accounting at a 4 year school. She hated all her accounting jobs an went on to get her BSN. All her ""science" requirement credits from the community college transferred so she only had to take 3 in hospital semesters to get her BSN in Nursing. By the way the BSN program was run through the community college system in association with participating hospitals here in New Jersey. Very affordable.

Nursing is a lot different. Many nursing programs have very very minimal science requirements, with most of the emphasis in hands on learning/practical training.

I think nursing through the community college route is a great idea.

Note, I said sciences or pre-med. Both require upper level science courses. Many (note I'm not saying most or all) community college lower level science classes are sub-par and do not give you the proper training necessary to achieve top grades in the upper level classes at a rigorous 4-year University.

[GooooMarquette]

Nursing is a lot different. Many nursing programs have very very minimal science requirements, with most of the emphasis in hands on learning/practical training.

I think nursing through the community college route is a great idea.

Note, I said sciences or pre-med. Both require upper level science courses. Many (note I'm not saying most or all) community college lower level science classes are sub-par and do not give you the proper training necessary to achieve top grades in the upper level classes at a rigorous 4-year University.

Agreed.

I have TREMENDOUS respect for nurses and the job they do. But I have taught community college undergrad science courses aimed specifically at nursing students, and university courses aimed at Biology/Physiology/Pre-Med majors. The depth and intensity of the courses were dramatically different, and if I was on a medical or dental school admissions committee, I would take this difference into account in assessing applicants.

That said, I don't necessarily think pre-professional students can't or shouldn't take any courses at community colleges. IMHO, it probably wouldn't hurt to take some humanities or other elective courses there, since the professional schools are mostly interested in science/math aptitudes.

Just my $0.02.

[Uncle Rico]

Guru didn’t think much of a Marquette education, FWIW

[The Big East]

Working with my a HS senior on colleges.  Wants to go to MU.  Decent, not great, student, was recently admitted with a 18K/yr scholarship; Bus Adm major.  The total cost still dwarfs the cost of a state school.  So, we need help.  In short, is a MU undergrad degree worth it, and if so, at what cost?

There are still many people in the business world who have respect for Jesuit Universities. MU is a well respected brand. So I think it is definitely worth it for your HS Senior , especially given the academic profile you outlined, to go to MU and benefit from its historically solid reputation.

[mu_hilltopper]

There are still many people in the business world who have respect for Jesuit Universities.

This is absolutely true.  But to be noted, "many people" is a very small slice of the planet.

[muwarrior69]

If it's $80k extra and would require debt and lifestyle changes? 

100% no.

Reminds me when I chose a college.  My #1 school was Washington University which was $17k per year, versus MU at $10k. 

My dad said:  "Son, I love you.  But not that much."

My entire 4 years was only 12k at MU which included tuition, lab fees, room&board and books. At the time my parents and I thought that was outrageous so go figure; but at least they could afford to send me, both factory workers. When I went there were more clergy that taught classes and the administration was not so bloated which I think kept tuition costs down.

[forgetful]

Agreed.

I have TREMENDOUS respect for nurses and the job they do. But I have taught community college undergrad science courses aimed specifically at nursing students, and university courses aimed at Biology/Physiology/Pre-Med majors. The depth and intensity of the courses were dramatically different, and if I was on a medical or dental school admissions committee, I would take this difference into account in assessing applicants.

That said, I don't necessarily think pre-professional students can't or shouldn't take any courses at community colleges. IMHO, it probably wouldn't hurt to take some humanities or other elective courses there, since the professional schools are mostly interested in science/math aptitudes.

Just my $0.02.

I agree completely.

[#UnleashSean]

I always see people say this and emphasize that it is not necessarily true. The "Always" is false. It depends on the field you plan to major in. I would normally strongly advise against a 2-year community college for those interested in the sciences, or pre-med.

From the sense of someone who did exactly what you described not to do... I'll gladly take my 2 years of $1,200 dollars and then 2 years of $8,000 with zero debt making $30,000 more than my colleagues who went to Carrol, MU and northwestern and laugh all the way to the bank. 

[forgetful]

From the sense of someone who did exactly what you described not to do... I'll gladly take my 2 years of $1,200 dollars and then 2 years of $8,000 with zero debt making $30,000 more than my colleagues who went to Carrol, MU and northwestern and laugh all the way to the bank. 

Glad it worked for you. Its a massive gamble. I don't recommend it to anyone interested in science or pre-med.

And I may be wrong in interpreting some of your posts, but I got the impression that you were working in the nursing/rehabilitative care markets, which is different that science or pre-med.

As I said, nursing is different.

[muwarrior69]

Here in New Jersey all students who attend community college can then transfer to Rutgers regardless of major. All science courses at the community college level are equivalent as those taught at Rutgers and Rutgers has damn good Biology, Chemistry and Physics departments. In fact the stem science courses taught at the community college level are taught by scientist employed by the many Pharmaceutical, Petroleum and Chemical companies in the state giving their students a real world perspective and how the science they learn can be applied to actual jobs that the industries they work for are looking for in new graduates. My cousins daughter who took the community college route and graduated from Rutgers got a good paying job at Pfizer because she networked with her community college instructor who worked at Pfizer.

[#UnleashSean]

Glad it worked for you. Its a massive gamble. I don't recommend it to anyone interested in science or pre-med.

And I may be wrong in interpreting some of your posts, but I got the impression that you were working in the nursing/rehabilitative care markets, which is different that science or pre-med.

As I said, nursing is different.

I'm an RN with a masters, soon to be PH.D in ABA therapy. Thinking about hitting up the med school vs APNP route. I was able to go do this much schooling in this amount of time because I went the route I did. Maybe back in the 70's it was a bit different, but classes at UW-community colleges are the same course work as at Madison.

[#UnleashSean]

Here in New Jersey all students who attend community college can then transfer to Rutgers regardless of major. All science courses at the community college level are equivalent as those taught at Rutgers and Rutgers has damn good Biology, Chemistry and Physics departments. In fact the stem science courses taught at the community college level are taught by scientist employed by the many Pharmaceutical, Petroleum and Chemical companies in the state giving their students a real world perspective and how the science they learn can be applied to actual jobs that the industries they work for are looking for in new graduates. My cousins daughter who took the community college route and graduated from Rutgers got a good paying job at Pfizer because she networked with her community college instructor who worked at Pfizer.

Likewise in Wisconsin all UW community colleges (they're now partnered with a UW school, but regardless) have a pre accepted transfer to any UW school when you achieve above a 2.0 gpa after 2 years (2.5 for Madison and Lacrosse) The course work is the exact same. You just miss out on freshman & sophomore year dorm life.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I'm an RN with a masters, soon to be PH.D in ABA therapy. Thinking about hitting up the med school vs APNP route. I was able to go do this much schooling in this amount of time because I went the route I did. Maybe back in the 70's it was a bit different, but classes at UW-community colleges are the same course work as at Madison.

They are not. The two year schools have merged into the four year. Which actually likely mitigates what forgetful is talking about.

[Eldon]

Working with my a HS senior on colleges.  Wants to go to MU.  Decent, not great, student, was recently admitted with a 18K/yr scholarship; Bus Adm major.  The total cost still dwarfs the cost of a state school.  So, we need help.  In short, is a MU undergrad degree worth it, and if so, at what cost?

It's likely worth it if student:

1) Loves--and I mean loves--MU
2) Wants to stay in Milwaukee long term
3) Is going to stick with business

I know students change majors, but which major within BusAdm?

[#UnleashSean]

They are not. The two year schools have merged into the four year. Which actually likely mitigates what forgetful is talking about.

I knew they partnered with them, is it a full on merge? And did they do away with the transfer system then, or was it always a full uw transfer

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

It's a merger.  UW-Waukesha credits are now UW-Milwaukee credits.  A transfer to UW-Madison is simply a transfer from UW-Milwaukee.

The two year campuses have been losing popularity for years.  The tech colleges are better funded and offer more of the tech based majors.  And not enough people were taking the route you took.  They would rather go directly to a four year program.

[forgetful]

Likewise in Wisconsin all UW community colleges (they're now partnered with a UW school, but regardless) have a pre accepted transfer to any UW school when you achieve above a 2.0 gpa after 2 years (2.5 for Madison and Lacrosse) The course work is the exact same. You just miss out on freshman & sophomore year dorm life.

I'm an RN with a masters, soon to be PH.D in ABA therapy. Thinking about hitting up the med school vs APNP route. I was able to go do this much schooling in this amount of time because I went the route I did. Maybe back in the 70's it was a bit different, but classes at UW-community colleges are the same course work as at Madison.

The UW system is very different than everywhere else. I've actually commented on it here before. The UW system is very well designed and pretty rigorous. Not so elsewhere.

We track student success pretty closely. The students who come from community colleges score on average a little over 1 full letter grade worse in science and math courses, than your typical student.

[muwarrior69]

The UW system is very different than everywhere else. I've actually commented on it here before. The UW system is very well designed and pretty rigorous. Not so elsewhere.

We track student success pretty closely. The students who come from community colleges score on average a little over 1 full letter grade worse in science and math courses, than your typical student.

As I said my cousin has done very well here in New Jersey and has a great job because she networked with her community college instructor. Not all stem students want to be academics and do basic research. Like my cousin they can work for great companies that provide therapeutics and products that make a difference in our everyday lives. It was her community college experience that led her to that job. As for grades she was just a B-/C+ student but in my book still a success as she is earning a low six figure salary with just a BS and no student debt. All her community college instructors taught her how to network.

[WarriorFan]

Working with my a HS senior on colleges.  Wants to go to MU.  Decent, not great, student, was recently admitted with a 18K/yr scholarship; Bus Adm major.  The total cost still dwarfs the cost of a state school.  So, we need help.  In short, is a MU undergrad degree worth it, and if so, at what cost?

Unfortunately my experience is that the universities still don't understand this question.  I recently raised a similar question to the dean of students (manager of the Admissions director) at a well known east coast Jesuit university, explaining that "their value proposition no longer comes close to the cost of attendance".  After a couple clarifying emails they just couldn't respond.  My intention was to negotiate the tuition down due to a 60% pay cut I took due to COVID.  I even gave them a number I was willing to pay.  It was pretty clear that they are not running a business, they will fix prices and watch enrollment decline or accept less capable students.  The result:  my son transferred.

I did the same at his new university, and they at least engaged in the dialogue and we had a couple meetings, but they fell back on transfer "rules" restricting scholarships.  (scholarship = discount). At least the new school is a state school with much lower costs.

My hope would be that every parent starts doing this... Do you buy a $50k new car without negotiation?  a house?  Then why not start negotiating university tuition!  The schools will then learn that most of them cost too much and that loans are not the answer.