More Ominous Signs for College Sports

[MU82]

Sports an be a great learning tool and great for high school kids for so many reasons.  But, when practices are 6 or 7 days a week for hours, game travel, etc, it has gotten out of hand for good students.  Just like on my college sports opinion, I maybe old fashioned, but it seems like the priority has become so much about sports and winning and not learning and not the student part. Does it really matter if they shortened practice a bit or practiced 4 days a week?

Well stated. When folks talk about high school sports, they invariably are talking about basketball and football, and usually big-time basketball and football. But for every LeBron Situation or Jimmy Clausen Situation, there are hundreds of kids playing high school softball or field hockey or volleyball or swimming or even basketball and football on a far lower level.

Saying high school sports are bad when talking about 99.9% of all girls volleyball players would be like saying college sports are bad because of women's lacrosse.

If high schools have the will, there is a way to make basketball and football less "corporate" and hyped, and it's to do just what you suggested - make it more fun and less of a job by de-emphasizing the big-timeness of it.

I am realistic enough to know that probably won't happen, and that it will only get bigger and more "professional." I mean, just look at how big-time Little League has gotten ... and those are only 11-12 year olds! (And the occasional 16-year-old pretending to be 12.)

But even the "bigness" happens almost exclusively in the biggest sports: basketball, football, hockey in a few states, baseball in a few areas, maybe wrestling in Iowa, maybe lacrosse in a few places. The rest of 'em are just kids competing with their friends, learning to get along with people, staying in shape, and becoming more well-rounded human beings.

These are not bad things.  Perhaps colleges in all areas should concentrate more on academics.

Again, I think we're kind of "stuck" on the biggest sports at certain schools.

I'm too lazy to look it up now, but I have looked it up in the past, and I believe that athletes at most universities have at least as high if not higher cumulative GPAs as the overall student bodies do. That even applied for the basketball and football teams at a large number of schools.

For every basketball superstar who just wants to play a season and move on to the big bucks, there are hundreds of athletes, male and female, who are grateful to play college sports and who very much value the degrees they'll be getting.

[The Sultan]

The NFL has way too much money on the line. I think these tweets are way more about negotiations. I mean...I hope the have some sort of plan in place right?

[pbiflyer]

The NFL has way too much money on the line. I think these tweets are way more about negotiations. I mean...I hope the have some sort of plan in place right?

I think that is their plan.

[GooooMarquette]

This thread is moving towards how I view College sports.  The have gotten too big and too much of a "feed me" "feed me more" mentality all at the expense of "student."  Many fans as well, not just the fringe fans, only care about winning and the show on the floor instead of a balance between athletics and student-athlete.  The Ivy league, maybe leagues such as the Patriot league, have some perspective that actually puts the student in student-athlete.  I respect these schools and leagues more and more. 

I respect the non-revenue sports more and more and players no on scholarship or on partial scholarships.  Yes, I know who pays for these non-revenue sports. But why in the heck do non-revenue sports play in conferences that require long trips and plane rides and hotel stays, etc.  It makes no sense and should be restructured to have different localized leagues for non-revenue sports based upon geography and cost savings.

College sports have been trying to compete with the pro-sports, compete with each other at ridiculous levels such as Ohio State, and the SEC, and getting further and further away from caring about the athlete from a student perspective. I realize it old fashioned for me to think that college sports should be mainly about student-athlete and not primarily about the entertainment business. 

This might be a good chance for us fans to realize what is important in their own lives, and for colleges to take a step back and realize that the sports machine should be able to go a season without full revenue - or if it can't - then something needs to change.  Maybe start with college coach's pay that have gone through the roof in the last 30 years.

I agree. This pandemic is causing a lot of disruption, and giving many of us time to reassess what is really important. And I am coming to the same conclusion as you: That big-time, money-making college sports has veered so far from where it started, to the point where is is often just an alternative to the pro sports leagues. And I think that's unfortunate.

Big-time sports schools will never go back anywhere near the Ivy League or Patriot League models (students first, athletes a distant second), but maybe this will cause schools (colleges and high schools alike) to reassess how much they emphasize and invest in sports programs.

Maybe I'm just old-fashioned too....

[Dawson Rental]

I agree. This pandemic is causing a lot of disruption, and giving many of us time to reassess what is really important. And I am coming to the same conclusion as you: That big-time, money-making college sports has veered so far from where it started, to the point where is is often just an alternative to the pro sports leagues. And I think that's unfortunate.

Big-time sports schools will never go back anywhere near the Ivy League or Patriot League models (students first, athletes a distant second), but maybe this will cause schools (colleges and high schools alike) to reassess how much they emphasize and invest in sports programs.

Maybe I'm just old-fashioned too....

Those of us who argue that the NCAA is unfair when it mandates no compensation for (student) athletes came to that conclusion a while ago.  It's the basis for our opinion.

[GooooMarquette]

Those of us who argue that the NCAA is unfair when it mandates no compensation for (student) athletes came to that conclusion a while ago.  It's the basis for our opinion.

Yeah...but I would go in a different direction on the economics. I would say the system should be set up so that athletes who want to make money as athletes go ahead and do it instead of going to college. I seriously doubt that happens, but to me that would be the 'right' outcome. I would still like to see college sports programs, but with athletes who are in school for school first.

[Lennys Tap]

Yeah...but I would go in a different direction on the economics. I would say the system should be set up so that athletes who want to make money as athletes go ahead and do it instead of going to college. I seriously doubt that happens, but to me that would be the 'right' outcome. I would still like to see college sports programs, but with athletes who are in school for school first.

Doesn't matter if we're talking Ivy League or SEC, Augustana or Alabama. School admit young men who play football and basketball who would not be considered but for their athletic prowess. Naturally some will see themselves as athletes first, students second (if that). As long as there is money in sports (both college and professional) that isn't changing IMO.


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[dgies9156]

Well stated. When folks talk about high school sports, they invariably are talking about basketball and football, and usually big-time basketball and football. But for every LeBron Situation or Jimmy Clausen Situation, there are hundreds of kids playing high school softball or field hockey or volleyball or swimming or even basketball and football on a far lower level.

Saying high school sports are bad when talking about 99.9% of all girls volleyball players would be like saying college sports are bad because of women's lacrosse.

If high schools have the will, there is a way to make basketball and football less "corporate" and hyped, and it's to do just what you suggested - make it more fun and less of a job by de-emphasizing the big-timeness of it.

I am realistic enough to know that probably won't happen, and that it will only get bigger and more "professional." I mean, just look at how big-time Little League has gotten ... and those are only 11-12 year olds! (And the occasional 16-year-old pretending to be 12.)

But even the "bigness" happens almost exclusively in the biggest sports: basketball, football, hockey in a few states, baseball in a few areas, maybe wrestling in Iowa, maybe lacrosse in a few places. The rest of 'em are just kids competing with their friends, learning to get along with people, staying in shape, and becoming more well-rounded human beings.

Again, I think we're kind of "stuck" on the biggest sports at certain schools.

I'm too lazy to look it up now, but I have looked it up in the past, and I believe that athletes at most universities have at least as high if not higher cumulative GPAs as the overall student bodies do. That even applied for the basketball and football teams at a large number of schools.

For every basketball superstar who just wants to play a season and move on to the big bucks, there are hundreds of athletes, male and female, who are grateful to play college sports and who very much value the degrees they'll be getting.

My problem with high school sports is akin to some of your thoughts, Brother MU. It's not about physical education, problem solving, collaboration and commitment. It's about the intangibles. High school sports is about the absurd and totally unhealthy superiority complex when West Bumfork High demolishes Hillbilly Tech from East Bumfork in football. Or when Innercity Polytech, with its average ACT score of 14, wins the IHSA Championship in Division 7 or 8 and sends three of its stars to Division 1 universities.

We don't care about graduation rates, ACT/SAT scores, quality of graduates or percentage of class members who went on to high school. We care about some obscure football or basketball game and our ability to gloat over a couple of wins.

When a local high school near me was built more than a decade ago, it cost $44 million (and the land was donated). Half of that amount was for athletic facilities.

Heck, the teen age athletic programs should be in the Park Districts, not in the schools!

[GooooMarquette]

Doesn't matter if we're talking Ivy League or SEC, Augustana or Alabama. School admit young men who play football and basketball who would not be considered but for their athletic prowess. Naturally some will see themselves as athletes first, students second (if that). As long as there is money in sports (both college and professional) that isn't changing IMO.

We are in agreement that it isn't happening. I just said I would prefer it to the current situation, where many student-athletes in the big money sports aren't really students at all.

[brewcity77]

Yeah...but I would go in a different direction on the economics. I would say the system should be set up so that athletes who want to make money as athletes go ahead and do it instead of going to college. I seriously doubt that happens, but to me that would be the 'right' outcome. I would still like to see college sports programs, but with athletes who are in school for school first.

I'm going to guess that if that's what you want, 99% of D1 scholarship athletes won't be back. Though it's unlikely, I still think a number of D2 and D3 players are dreaming of the NBA.

[GooooMarquette]

I'm going to guess that if that's what you want, 99% of D1 scholarship athletes won't be back. Though it's unlikely, I still think a number of D2 and D3 players are dreaming of the NBA.

I don't know that it would be anywhere near that high. Maybe if you need the "someday I want to be a fireman/astronaut" kind of dreamers in the mix...but a huge number of those kids still go to school to get an education, treat pursue academics with great diligence (i.e., not just to stay eligible), and look at an NBA career as a huge longshot.

Maybe I should have said I'd like to see the system set up so that kids who plan to make their money in the NBA would go straight to making money.

[The Sultan]

My kids included a high schools sports multiple letterwinner and one who didn't care.

High school sports are both good and bad.  The good is a little overrated, but so is the bad.  As long as the parents kept things in perspective, it was an enjoyable experience.  When they didn't, it was a poor one.

[SERocks]

Frankly I've become used to a world without sports...

And without YouTube TV.  It's all good.

[dgies9156]

My kids included a high schools sports multiple letterwinner and one who didn't care.

High school sports are both good and bad.  The good is a little overrated, but so is the bad.  As long as the parents kept things in perspective, it was an enjoyable experience.  When they didn't, it was a poor one.

Brother fluff, I understand both points. But when the schools, parents and communities see it as more than students recreating, it's when we have problems. Forget this, "I'm fighting for the greater glory of Hillbilly High" rah rah stuff and begin to see it as a a means for education of students and I'll change my mind.

[The Sultan]

Brother fluff, I understand both points. But when the schools, parents and communities see it as more than students recreating, it's when we have problems. Forget this, "I'm fighting for the greater glory of Hillbilly High" rah rah stuff and begin to see it as a a means for education of students and I'll change my mind.

Eh.  There is nothing wrong with that if it is kept in proper context.  My kids had a rival high school in another town that they competed against for years.  But it never got bad.

And honestly most of the non-competing students don't care all that much anyway. 

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

Eh.  There is nothing wrong with that if it is kept in proper context.  My kids had a rival high school in another town that they competed against for years.  But it never got bad.

And honestly most of the non-competing students don't care all that much anyway.

The issue is the cost and the distraction of why they are supposed to be there, not to mention tax dollar funded.  I have two sons that were 4 year varsity starters.  Both enjoyed HS athletics because they had an opportunity to play with their friends, but complained of it because the competition sucked and preferred club/travel.  All the great "social" skills learned by sports can be garnered ian non HS athletics. Its institutionalized by a heavily prounion governmental organizational and the grip is ultra tight

[The Sultan]

The amount of money spent on high school sports in my district is a rounding error.  Not even worth getting worked up about.  And a good portion of it is covered by fees for those who participate, gifts from booster clubs, etc. 

[Badgerhater]

City of Milwaukee rule now prevents colleges from having in-person classes. https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/education/2020/07/17/milwaukee-schools-colleges-not-allowed-open-fall-semester/5458663002/

[Billy Hoyle]

Brother fluff, I understand both points. But when the schools, parents and communities see it as more than students recreating, it's when we have problems. Forget this, "I'm fighting for the greater glory of Hillbilly High" rah rah stuff and begin to see it as a a means for education of students and I'll change my mind.

being from a rural, one high school area, we didn't have that. We had rival schools but we didn't know anyone from there. Sports were for A) recreation and B) the kids of teachers (or parents who kissed the asses of coaches) to be given preferential treatment. Winning wasn't as important as taking care of one's colleagues. We've had three D1 basketball players and no D1 football players all-time from my HS. Some track went D1 but that was it.

[Galway Eagle]

I personally like High School Sports in America way more than the European system. It gives you a sense of pride in your school and connection with others who've gone there. My cousins in England and Ireland don't have that at all whether it's the university level, college, or grade school.

Yes there's places where it's out of control but I think representing your school as opposed to random club that happens to be near you is a good feeling.

[Pakuni]

California is moving its fall and winter sports seasons to late winter/spring.

[Nukem2]

On a side note, Green Bay Packers prez Mark Murphy estimates that the Packers will allow between 10 to 12 thousand fan this season for games played at Lambeau Field.  Just fwiw.

[Uncle Rico]

On a side note, Green Bay Packers prez Mark Murphy estimates that the Packers will allow between 10 to 12 thousand fan this season for games played at Lambeau Field.  Just fwiw.

If there's one thing to repel Covid, it's 12,000 Packers fans all together

[WhiteTrash]

On a side note, Green Bay Packers prez Mark Murphy estimates that the Packers will allow between 10 to 12 thousand fan this season for games played at Lambeau Field.  Just fwiw.

This will decimate the beer and brat industry in GB.

[MarquetteMike1977]

https://www.jsonline.com/story/news/education/2020/07/21/milwaukee-schools-approved-plans-allowed-reopen-fall/5481958002/