MU and diversity of thought

[Pakuni]

Speech suppression and victim shaming all in one sentence, bravo or brava.

In all seriousness, that is a real bad prescident you're setting there. Don't post things others find harmful because then you deserve whatever comes your way? What if its speech you find acceptable but others find hateful, what then, can they shout you down?

Her speech has been so suppressed that she's becoming a darling of the local right wing media, where she's getting to speak to her heart's content.
Bullying and threats are sh*tty and wrong and shouldn't be tolerated. Not one person here has said differently.
But when you mock transgender people over an online platform viewable the world over, you're not a victim when people call you on it, nor is that speech suppression. People have just as much right to call your opinion stupid as you have the right to express a stupid opinion. It seems to be a common tactic these days to claim one's free speech is being suppressed because what was said is being criticized.

[Billy Hoyle]

Her speech has been so suppressed that she's becoming a darling of the local right wing media, where she's getting to speak to her heart's content.
Bullying and threats are sh*tty and wrong and shouldn't be tolerated. Not one person here has said differently.
But when you mock transgender people over an online platform viewable the world over, you're not a victim when people call you on it, nor is that speech suppression. People have just as much right to call your opinion stupid as you have the right to express a stupid opinion. It seems to be a common tactic these days to claim one's free speech is being suppressed because what was said is being criticized.

That's the brilliance of being a right wing victim. Give her time, she'll have a GoFundMe promoted by right wing media that will pay her tuition, pay her for speaking engagements, and get her a book deal. I'm not kidding.

As a (then) conservative student at MU, the amount of "everyone is out to get you" messaging I got from older students, a couple of professors in the Poli Sci program, TA's, and from student publications like YAF (this was pre-Internet) was ridiculous. My advisor in Poli Sci (not McAdams) talked me out of applying for the Truman Foundation scholarship because "they'll never give it to a conservative." This professor was a right-winger. Victimology is the driving force for right-wing college students and groups and is has been for decades.

Not that I endorse the cyberstalking and harassment of this individual. It's just as bad as what McAdams' minions did to the TA he had harassed away from MU. The far left is just as bad as the right (I was called a "racist" and "fascist" by a protester for saying I opposed looting and destruction that happened during the protests...by a white protestor who had been involved in destroying black-owned businesses). If you're not a "fascist" or a "racist" you're a "Marxist" or a "commie." If you're not vocal enough (based upon another's standards) you're part of the problem. No room in the middle anymore. I'm glad I'm not in college today.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/06/andrew-sullivan-is-there-still-room-for-debate.html

[tower912]

Future Governor Walker felt singled out for his political beliefs in college a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.   

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Future Governor Walker felt singled out for his political beliefs in college a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.   

Which is exactly why this is so hilarious.  The Marquette student body is full of conservative, Trump lovers.  She will be fine.

Which is why I think TAMU's point about the actual content of her posts were the problem.

[tower912]

Wolfe v McAdams.    Both extremely conservative.    One made his classes interesting, challenged us to think, welcomed the free exchange of thought, invited anybody from any of his classes who was unable to go home for Thanksgiving to his home so they would not be alone.     

One throws students and TA's under the bus.   

You are only slightly defined by your political beliefs.      You are are far more defined by your words, your actions, and how you direct them.   

[Warrior2008]

Speech suppression and victim shaming all in one sentence, bravo or brava.

In all seriousness, that is a real bad prescident you're setting there. Don't post things others find harmful because then you deserve whatever comes your way? What if its speech you find acceptable but others find hateful, what then, can they shout you down?

What a straw man response.  She made her statements on a public forum and then complained when people exercised their first amendment right to disagree with her.  Did I say she couldn't speak her mind, no I didn't. It seems her tour of Milwaukee talk radio has given her all the safe space airtime she could ever need.  But if you can't handle people disagreeing with you on social media when making overtly racist or trans-phobic comments, then the simple explanation is to not use social media. 

Until then, come back to me if Marquette rescinds her admission and then you can argue victim hood and speech suppression(to be fair, I would be inclined to agree with you then), but until then she's nothing more than any other teenager who posts stupid things on social media.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

That's the brilliance of being a right wing victim. Give her time, she'll have a GoFundMe promoted by right wing media that will pay her tuition, pay her for speaking engagements, and get her a book deal. I'm not kidding.

We've had a couple of situations that I jokingly refer to as "bringing a nuke to a knife fight." It starts out as spat over politics on Twitter or some other social media platform with people on both sides of the argument acting poorly (the knife fight). It ends with the conservative student on national talk radio or in one case Fox and Friends sending a mob of people from across the country against the liberal student (the nuke). There are certainly bad actors on both sides of these viral political arguments. My experience is that those on the conservative side usually have access to larger platforms because there is a market for "persecuted" conservative student stories that just doesn't exist for liberal students.

[mu03eng]

What a straw man response.  She made her statements on a public forum and then complained when people exercised their first amendment right to disagree with her.  Did I say she couldn't speak her mind, no I didn't. It seems her tour of Milwaukee talk radio has given her all the safe space airtime she could ever need.  But if you can't handle people disagreeing with you on social media when making overtly racist or trans-phobic comments, then the simple explanation is to not use social media. 

Until then, come back to me if Marquette rescinds her admission and then you can argue victim hood and speech suppression(to be fair, I would be inclined to agree with you then), but until then she's nothing more than any other teenager who posts stupid things on social media.

I'm not supporting her statements, I'm quite certain they were some sort of phobic and/or hateful. Perhaps I misconstrued your intent, if you mean that if you don't want someone to contradict or call out something as hateful then don't post it...I get that and agree. I read your statement as a if you don't want anyone bad reaction (including threats) don't post.

My intent was not that she is being suppressed or victimized now, merely that what I thought you were espousing would lead to that end.

One thing I would caution, she quite likely said ignorant things, there should be a path to educating that ignorance that doesn't brand her for life. Her saying something phobic at 15 should be handled differently than someone who's 55 and says something similar.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

One thing I would caution, she quite likely said ignorant things, there should be a path to educating that ignorance that doesn't brand her for life. Her saying something phobic at 15 should be handled differently than someone who's 55 and says something similar.

Yes, this is true. Unfortunately I suspect the only thing that she will learn is that the right wing outrage machine pays very well, whether in this case means fame, attention, or remuneration.

As long as her opinions are being celebrated and she is getting attention, it is unlikely that he will have any incentive to change. As Sinclair said, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."

[mu03eng]

Yes, this is true. Unfortunately I suspect the only thing that she will learn is that the right wing outrage machine pays very well, whether in this case means fame, attention, or remuneration.

As long as her opinions are being celebrated and she is getting attention, it is unlikely that he will have any incentive to change. As Sinclair said, "It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."

Agreed

[Coleman]

That's the brilliance of being a right wing victim. Give her time, she'll have a GoFundMe promoted by right wing media that will pay her tuition, pay her for speaking engagements, and get her a book deal. I'm not kidding.

As a (then) conservative student at MU, the amount of "everyone is out to get you" messaging I got from older students, a couple of professors in the Poli Sci program, TA's, and from student publications like YAF (this was pre-Internet) was ridiculous. My advisor in Poli Sci (not McAdams) talked me out of applying for the Truman Foundation scholarship because "they'll never give it to a conservative." This professor was a right-winger. Victimology is the driving force for right-wing college students and groups and is has been for decades.

Not that I endorse the cyberstalking and harassment of this individual. It's just as bad as what McAdams' minions did to the TA he had harassed away from MU. The far left is just as bad as the right (I was called a "racist" and "fascist" by a protester for saying I opposed looting and destruction that happened during the protests...by a white protestor who had been involved in destroying black-owned businesses). If you're not a "fascist" or a "racist" you're a "Marxist" or a "commie." If you're not vocal enough (based upon another's standards) you're part of the problem. No room in the middle anymore. I'm glad I'm not in college today.

https://nymag.com/intelligencer/2020/06/andrew-sullivan-is-there-still-room-for-debate.html

Spot on. Everyone loves to play the victim now. Especially white middle class conservatives AND liberals at MU.

Death threats are wrong. And should be looked at.

But I have yet to hear anything to be critical of MU about...

[GB Warrior]

Apologies if I missed it, but have we seen the original post or are we just miring in reckless speculation here?

Nevermind, this is Scoop.

[Billy Hoyle]

Spot on. Everyone loves to play the victim now. Especially white middle class conservatives AND liberals at MU.

Death threats are wrong. And should be looked at.

But I have yet to hear anything to be critical of MU about...

at the college where I work there is an IG page dedicated to calling out racial injustice students have faced. Most are legit. I myself had witnessed some and almost quit over one involving a student with whom I was close. HOWEVER, there are also post complaining about the most ridiculous things. My favorite was that at one of the dining facilities they made banh mi sandwiches. Not only were they not good and "authentic" but the sign said "bahn mi" which shows they're racist. Now there's a push to have the contract canceled. Unbelievable.  It's too bad these kids never had to eat at McCormick.

[muwarrior69]

TAMU, spot on.

One additional detail. McAdams and the radio reporter go to great length not to mention "Samantha's" real name for fear of bringing more vitriol against her.

But they openly share the person's, who reported her, name and social media handle. Again showing that his/their real goal is to bring hate/animosity back towards the other individual. That makes them as bad as those threatening "Samantha" to begin with. They are doing the very thing they criticize others for, and on a much bigger platform.

I doubt McAdams has that big a following to impact those individuals.

[muwarrior69]

I'm not supporting her statements, I'm quite certain they were some sort of phobic and/or hateful. Perhaps I misconstrued your intent, if you mean that if you don't want someone to contradict or call out something as hateful then don't post it...I get that and agree. I read your statement as a if you don't want anyone bad reaction (including threats) don't post.

My intent was not that she is being suppressed or victimized now, merely that what I thought you were espousing would lead to that end.

One thing I would caution, she quite likely said ignorant things, there should be a path to educating that ignorance that doesn't brand her for life. Her saying something phobic at 15 should be handled differently than someone who's 55 and says something similar.

I have no idea what she posted. Are LGBTQ students interviewed to see if their views are offensive to traditional Catholics at a Catholic University?

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I have no idea what she posted. Are LGBTQ students interviewed to see if their views are offensive to traditional Catholics at a Catholic University?

No.

[Hards Alumni]

I doubt McAdams has that big a following to impact those individuals.

Absurd.

He was on a radio show that thousands listen to.

I have no idea what she posted. Are LGBTQ students interviewed to see if their views are offensive to traditional Catholics at a Catholic University?

So maybe keep quiet a bit and wait for information before snapping to judge anyone.  We could all stand to do this more often.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I have no idea what she posted. Are LGBTQ students interviewed to see if their views are offensive to traditional Catholics at a Catholic University?

Why would they? There's nothing in Catholic doctrine condemning people who are LGBTQ+.There may be students who are offended but their offense isn't based in Catholic teachings.

[rocket surgeon]

I'm not supporting her statements, I'm quite certain they were some sort of phobic and/or hateful . Perhaps I misconstrued your intent, if you mean that if you don't want someone to contradict or call out something as hateful then don't post it...I get that and agree. I read your statement as a if you don't want anyone bad reaction (including threats) don't post.

My intent was not that she is being suppressed or victimized now, merely that what I thought you were espousing would lead to that end.

One thing I would caution, she quite likely said ignorant things, there should be a path to educating that ignorance that doesn't brand her for life. Her saying something phobic at 15 should be handled differently than someone who's 55 and says something similar.

  you are, are you?  if you've heard or read what she posted, please share because that would be very helpful here.

   

[Lennys Tap]

Bullying and threats are sh*tty and wrong and shouldn't be tolerated. Not one person here has said differently.

Pakuni

Both you and TAMU (and I’m sure others) have expressed these sentiments and I concur. Question: what do we mean by “not tolerating”? Expulsion from school? Revocation of admittance? Which is more serious, expressing a controversial, ignorant or even disgusting opinion or threatening violence or murder?

[muwarrior69]

Why would they? There's nothing in Catholic doctrine condemning people who are LGBTQ+.There may be students who are offended but their offense isn't based in Catholic teachings.

The Pope believes differently. Church will not perform same sex marriages which the LGBTQ community believes is homophobic nor do they believe that a man or women can be the opposite sex which the LGBTQ community believes is transphobic.

https://religionandpolitics.org/2019/07/30/the-vatican-draws-a-line-on-gender-and-transgender-catholics-push-back/

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

The Pope believes differently. Church will not perform same sex marriages which the LGBTQ community believes is homophobic nor do they believe that a man or women can be the opposite sex which the LGBTQ community believes is transphobic.

https://religionandpolitics.org/2019/07/30/the-vatican-draws-a-line-on-gender-and-transgender-catholics-push-back/

I didn't say anything about gay marriage or someone being the opposite sex, neither did you in the post I was responding to.

[Pakuni]

Pakuni

Both you and TAMU (and I’m sure others) have expressed these sentiments and I concur. Question: what do we mean by “not tolerating”? Expulsion from school? Revocation of admittance? Which is more serious, expressing a controversial, ignorant or even disgusting opinion or threatening violence or murder?

Lenny,
Unfortunately, I can't give you a simple answer here. There's a broad spectrum between being mean online and making death threats, just as there's a broad spectrum between expressing a "controversial" opinion and being racist (and, no, being racist is not just an opinion). And that doesn't event account for whether it's a first-time or multiple offense, the offender's attitude about it, etc.
I do think threatening to kill or harm another student in many, if not most, cases is grounds for expulsion or revocation of admittance. I can imagine some exceptions, like two drunks get into a fight at a bar and one shouts "I'm going to kill you." But generally speaking, students who threaten to kill their peers should not be welcome at Marquette.

And because I know where you're going with this ... I don't think many instances of bad takes on social media are worthy of expulsion or pulling someone's acceptance. But repeated and unrepentant instances of racist or other hate speech? You don't belong at Marquette.

[dgies9156]

I trust in TAMU's vision for how this should be handled and believe Marquette will act with the tolerance and love toward one another that Catholic teaching requires.

Quite frankly, I'm tired of both the left screaming about so-called hostile speech and the right headed to conservative media to plead their case. In the name of God, whatever happened to tolerance? Tolerance of viewpoints other than your own? Acceptance of the fact people won't think like you, or me? It's going to happen. I promise!

Are we so afraid of the marketplace of ideas that we MUST silence those whose ideas threaten or even repulse us? God help us if we are, because we're sure going to need it.

Years ago, Larry Flynt owned what many thought to be a pornographic publication. There were efforts to shut him down on pornography grounds. The vast majority of Americans found Mr. Flynt and his publications disgusting. But we found the efforts to restrain his publications equally disgusting. We figured the market rather than the courts would silence him, which they eventually did. The big issue was that if pornography laws could be used to restrain free speech, what other laws could be used to restrain my ability to, say, criticize the direction of Marquette basketball? Or, restrain the Journal-Sentinel in its day-to-day coverage of events?

As a final thought, years ago when I was on campus, there were a series of what many today would consider offensive letters published in the Marquette Tribune. The letters questioned Catholic social teaching as it relates to our charitable work toward the folks that lived in the neighborhood near the university. The letters were sharp, pointed and, in some phrases, highly offensive. But they served a point for the university and its students. It enabled a robust debate on what our obligations as followers of Jesus were and it sparked discussion about Catholic Social Justice teachings. IN SHORT -- IT WAS A TEACHING MOMENT.

Diversity of thought in a University setting is what universities are about.

[Lennys Tap]

Lenny,
Unfortunately, I can't give you a simple answer here. There's a broad spectrum between being mean online and making death threats, just as there's a broad spectrum between expressing a "controversial" opinion and being racist (and, no, being racist is not just an opinion). And that doesn't event account for whether it's a first-time or multiple offense, the offender's attitude about it, etc.
I do think threatening to kill or harm another student in many, if not most, cases is grounds for expulsion or revocation of admittance. I can imagine some exceptions, like two drunks get into a fight at a bar and one shouts "I'm going to kill you." But generally speaking, students who threaten to kill their peers should not be welcome at Marquette.

And because I know where you're going with this ... I don't think many instances of bad takes on social media are worthy of expulsion or pulling someone's acceptance. But repeated and unrepentant instances of racist or other hate speech? You don't belong at Marquette.

Good explanation - thanks.