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Author Topic: Wojo to Duke odds  (Read 21545 times)

MU82

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Re: Wojo to Duke odds
« Reply #75 on: May 30, 2020, 10:21:43 PM »
Zero tourney wins, his two best teams dismantled down the stretch.  Lemme know how you feel about that.

I felt bad about it. That's why I am no longer a projo, capiche?

That actually happened. I am not going to play, "What if such-and-such happens?" It's silly.

I mean ... OK, SOS, what if over the next 6 years Wojo makes 5 NCAA tourneys, gets to the E8 once and the S16 three times, and wins a couple of Big East titles? Lemme know how you feel about that.

I actually already know your response: He won't because he sucks.

Cool.

It also isn't what my previous posts were about.
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Small Orange Soda

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Re: Wojo to Duke odds
« Reply #76 on: May 30, 2020, 10:31:04 PM »
I felt bad about it. That's why I am no longer a projo, capiche?

That actually happened. I am not going to play, "What if such-and-such happens?" It's silly.

I mean ... OK, SOS, what if over the next 6 years Wojo makes 5 NCAA tourneys, gets to the E8 once and the S16 three times, and wins a couple of Big East titles? Lemme know how you feel about that.

I actually already know your response: He won't because he sucks.

Cool.

It also isn't what my previous posts were about.

I would be stoked, actually.  But he obviously didn't his first six years. He got humiliated in the tournament twice, and considering he made the NIT once he had all his guys (which I was told constantly was the issue the first three years:  Buzz left the cupboard empty!)...yeah, color me unimpressed.

All the things the Projos admire about him has to add up to something. When?

WarriorDad

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Re: Wojo to Duke odds
« Reply #77 on: May 30, 2020, 10:34:26 PM »
+1,00,000.

This is the best summation of those of us who are disappointed in Wojo.  He's certainly not bad, but we've obviously seen better.  And it's completely reasonable to ask at this point, is he going to get better?  And if you say yes, how long are you willing to kick the can down the road?  If Carton doesn't get a waiver, frankly, we're screwed.  Can we judge Wojo if so?  There are people like Cheeks/WarriorDad/Ahole and Wades who will defend Wojo at every turn.

We used to win tourney games.  Now we're bragging about making it (and getting humiliated).  Until that changes, the Projos have nothing to defend.


Am I allowed to ask a few questions that to this day no one on your side has answered.  Why not?

According to insiders here over the two years I have been here, Coach Buzz Williams left because he was told he could no longer recruit certain players (fiercer academic restrictions).

Is this true?

If it is true, and his last year showed he also couldn't win without recruiting the way he and Coach Crean were allowed to in the past, doesn't that show his success under the same conditions was not great?  In fact, even worse than Wojo has accomplished.  Doesn't that mean Wojo is coaching within a different set of rules and not packing the same ammo as Coach Williams and Coach Crean? 

Logically this must be true because it is repeated here again and again.  Buzz was told not to recruit certain players, Buzz got mad, Buzz couldn't win without recruiting those kids so he left.  But we hold Wojo to a standard that Buzz and Crean were allowed for flexibility and expect the same results? What rationale person would do that?

If Wojo was allowed to recruit the same types of players coach Williams and coach Crean were, then that would be a fair comparison.  But he isn't, according to insiders here.  Yet you want the same results even though he has to fish in a different pond.

Tell me where I am wrong on this?
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 10:47:22 PM by WarriorDad »
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MU82

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Re: Wojo to Duke odds
« Reply #78 on: May 30, 2020, 10:37:46 PM »
I would be stoked, actually.  But he obviously didn't his first six years. He got humiliated in the tournament twice, and considering he made the NIT once he had all his guys (which I was told constantly was the issue the first three years:  Buzz left the cupboard empty!)...yeah, color me unimpressed.

All the things the Projos admire about him has to add up to something. When?

Why are you trying to debate me when I don't have the view you think I do?

For at least the fifth time, all I said was that national basketball observers seem to think Wojo has done a good job at Marquette. Nobody, including you, has even tried to disprove that.

The rest is just people arguing that Wojo sucks. Cool.

I don't think our program is a "joke" or a "laughingstock," but I am less than satisfied with the direction of the program. I think I've been pretty clear and consistent about that in this thread.
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Small Orange Soda

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Q
« Reply #79 on: May 30, 2020, 10:47:11 PM »

Am I allowed to ask a few questions that to this day no one on your side has answered.  Why not?

According to insiders here over the two years I have been here, Coach Buzz Williams left because he was told he could no longer recruit certain players (fiercer academic restrictions).

Is this true?

If it is true, and his last year showed he also couldn't win without recruiting the way he and Coach Crean were allowed to doesn't that mean Wojo is coaching within a different set of rules and not packing the same ammo as Coach Williams and Coach Crean? 

Logically this must be true because it is repeated here again and again.  Buzz was told not to recruit certain players, Buzz got mad, Buzz couldn't win without recruiting those kids so he left.  But we hold Wojo to a standard that Buzz and Crean were allowed for flexibility and expect the same results? What rationale person would do that?

If Wojo was allowed to recruit the same types of players coach Williams and coach Crean were, then that would be a fair comparison.  But he isn't, according to insiders here.  Yet you want the same results even though he has to fish in a different pond.

Tell me where I am wrong on this?

Cheeks, I know your mission is to portray Buzz as a petulant whiner (unlike yourself, obviously).  And hey: I'll agree!

Was he told to not to recruit certain players?  Possibly!  His best team won the Big East and went to the Elite Eight without any JuCos though. Ugh!

Did said team have any McDonald's All Americans? No!  Yikes, wish we had a better recruiter!

Wait...We do?

Heyooo!

Boy, I sure wish Crean and Buzz were allowed to recruit McDonald's All Americans!

Wait, they were?

How did they both accomplish more then?

Weren't sh*tty X's and O's coaches?  No way!

 

WarriorDad

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Re: Q
« Reply #80 on: May 30, 2020, 10:51:01 PM »
Cheeks, I know your mission is to portray Buzz as a petulant whiner (unlike yourself, obviously).  And hey: I'll agree!

Was he told to not to recruit certain players?  Possibly!  His best team won the Big East and went to the Elite Eight without any JuCos though. Ugh!

Did said team have any McDonald's All Americans? No!  Yikes, wish we had a better recruiter!

Wait...We do?

Heyooo!

Boy, I sure wish Crean and Buzz were allowed to recruit McDonald's All Americans!

Wait, they were?

How did they both accomplish more then?

Weren't sh*tty X's and O's coaches?  No way!

Apparently you are not a MU insider that has insisted for the past two years he left because he was no longer allowed to go after the type of players he needed.  The restrictions were too great to proceed and was making it difficult, in his mind, to compete.  For Coach Crean, he demanded Dwyane Wade be admitted which also would not happen in the current environment with Wojo.

Since you don't know, maybe one of the experts will answer the question for us based on the countless messages claiming this was one of the reasons coach Williams left the program.  Insiders, please help us with the information.
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Small Orange Soda

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Re: Q
« Reply #81 on: May 30, 2020, 10:54:27 PM »
Apparently you are not a MU insider that has insisted for the past two years he left because he was no longer allowed to go after the type of players he needed.  The restrictions were too great to proceed and was making it difficult, in his mind, to compete.  For Coach Crean, he demanded Dwyane Wade be admitted which also would not happen in the current environment with Wojo.

Since you don't know, maybe one of the experts will answer the question for us based on the countless messages claiming this was one of the reasons coach Williams left the program.  Insiders, please help us with the information.

Cool, so Buzz sucks.  Why hasn't Wojo won a tourney game?  Trounced both times, and also complete collapsed the last two years (defend that without pathetically blaming anyone other than the coach).  I know you want to bring every convo back to Buzz since you can't defend Wojo's failures, but Buzz left a long time ago.  Time to judge the guy who is actually in charge, and he has failed everyone but you, who would've defended a wet paper bag after Buzz. Yawn.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 10:57:51 PM by Small Orange Soda »

WarriorDad

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Re: Q
« Reply #82 on: May 30, 2020, 11:07:10 PM »
Cool, so Buzz sucks.  Why hasn't Wojo won a tourney game?  Trounced both times, and also complete collapsed the last two years (defend that without pathetically blaming anyone other than the coach).  I know you want to bring every convo back to Buzz since you can't defend Wojo's failures, but Buzz left a long time ago.  Time to judge the guy who is actually in charge, and he has failed everyone but you, who would've defended a wet paper bag after Buzz. Yawn.

Coach Williams is a great coach.  He doesn't suck.  He won with different rules applied to him by the university than Wojo has.  I'm trying to use information, not emotion like you are.  In the final year of Coach Williams in the same conference Wojo is in and with the same rules, he didn't fare to well.  Fifth place finish, no tournament.  These are facts.  This is despite Coach Williams being a great coach.  Maybe we should relax the rules a bit so Wojo has the same opportunity to fish in the ponds that Crean and Buzz were allowed to?    It's after 11pm, I am tired and heading to bed.  Good talking to you.  We all want Marquette to do well in basketball.
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Small Orange Soda

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Re: Q
« Reply #83 on: May 30, 2020, 11:17:28 PM »
Coach Williams is a great coach.  He doesn't suck.  He won with different rules applied to him by the university than Wojo has.  I'm trying to use information, not emotion like you are.  In the final year of Coach Williams in the same conference Wojo is in and with the same rules, he didn't fare to well.  Fifth place finish, no tournament.  These are facts.  This is despite Coach Williams being a great coach.  Maybe we should relax the rules a bit so Wojo has the same opportunity to fish in the ponds that Crean and Buzz were allowed to?    It's after 11pm, I am tired and heading to bed.  Good talking to you.  We all want Marquette to do well in basketball.

He won with players less regarded than Wojo's.

FACTS:

Buzz: Two Sweet Sixteens, One Elite Eight.

Wojo: Let's talk about something else.

I'm totally with you Cheeks, Buzz bombed his last year.  Definitely deserves the criticism.  But when's the good year going to happen for Wojo?  And I know you're gonna come back with your crapshoot nonsense, but I think if any team is going to have success in the tourney, they're going to have to get a solid seed, right?  Well, we had a solid seed once (#5 seed, hey!) but unfortunately Wojo was derelict in his duty as a leader, and we lost six of our lost seven, then got demolished by a team who got demolished in the next round by a team that got demolished in the next round.  It's fair to judge that and not just punt.
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 11:22:29 PM by Small Orange Soda »

Dawson Rental

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Re: Wojo to Duke odds
« Reply #84 on: May 31, 2020, 12:20:51 AM »
Bobby Hurley definitely has an interesting recruiting class coming in this year. A good year and some more problems with the AD could see them splitting apart after this year. Could see that being the perfect situation for a coach in waiting situation at Duke where K is around for a year or too and Hurley is eased into the situation. Could see similar case for Wojo if this is how Coach K wants to slide into retirement. Duke has the money to pay 2 head coaches.

Otherwise I would say Brad Stevens or bust for Duke.

Bust isn’t an option when hiring a head coach.
You actually have a degree from Marquette?

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No...and after reading many many psosts from people on this board that do...I have to say I'm MUCH better off, if this is the type of "intelligence" a degree from MU gets you. It sure is on full display I will say that.

Dawson Rental

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Re: Wojo to Duke odds
« Reply #85 on: May 31, 2020, 12:29:57 AM »
That's a good question.  If we replicate his results the next six years, will people be impressed?

That's my issue with Wojo.  We have a coach good enough to not get fired, but not good enough to please the fanbase.  He's led the program into a holding pattern.  Something has to give eventually.  I'm not saying Wojo should be fired, but how many years are we going to do this?

How many years?  MU will do it in perpetuity, if we change head coaches at the rate we have been.
You actually have a degree from Marquette?

Quote from: muguru
No...and after reading many many psosts from people on this board that do...I have to say I'm MUCH better off, if this is the type of "intelligence" a degree from MU gets you. It sure is on full display I will say that.

TAMU, Knower of Ball

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Re: Wojo to Duke odds
« Reply #86 on: May 31, 2020, 03:12:19 AM »
I don't think Buzz left because he couldn't recruit certain players anymore.

I do think he left because he didn't like to be told how to run his program. I don't think it matters what direction/restriction was given, it probably would have led to the same result.

The narrative that Wojo can't be as successful as Buzz because he can't recruit the same players is lazy and frankly untrue. There were maybe 3 or 4 guys that Buzz recruited that Wojo couldn't and 1 of the guys I'm thinking of was hardly a worldbeater. There are quite literally 100s of players that Wojo can recruit with no issue every year. He hasn't been as successful as Buzz because he's not as good of a coach as Buzz, at least not yet. That's the simple truth of it.
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Frenns Liquor Depot

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Re: Wojo to Duke odds
« Reply #87 on: May 31, 2020, 06:13:42 AM »
How many years?  MU will do it in perpetuity, if we change head coaches at the rate we have been.

I don’t think this is an issue.  Most coaches don’t last more than 6-9 years.   We are about average there

Galway Eagle

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Re: Wojo to Duke odds
« Reply #88 on: May 31, 2020, 07:12:10 AM »
Oh, I understand that you wonder if he's our long term solution as well.  Question, though: How would you feel if the next six years played out just like the first six?

It wouldn't be great but at least we wouldn't fall from relevant either. It'd mean another crappy year, year with solid record and good wins but nothing to brag about. And 4 tournament appearances given that our NIT team would've been a tournament team with the current metrics used in selection. Again, it'd be frustrating to constantly be out in the first round but I won't turn my head away from 4 straight bids and 5 solid years in the next 6 either.
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tower912

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Re: Wojo to Duke odds
« Reply #89 on: May 31, 2020, 07:27:47 AM »
If he wins 100+ games the next five years like he has the last 5, he will be at the top of Duke's list.
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Uncle Rico

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Re: Wojo to Duke odds
« Reply #90 on: May 31, 2020, 08:24:46 AM »
Is Duke even a good job? 8-)
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HutchwasClutch

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Re: Wojo to Duke odds
« Reply #91 on: May 31, 2020, 08:29:13 AM »
If he wins 100+ games the next five years like he has the last 5, he will be at the top of Duke's list.

Certainly.  Duke aspires to be a program that wins about 20 games a season. That’s the bar Coach K has set. I’m sure everyone associated with their program will tire of Final Fours, championships, etc. by then.  Human nature to want to regress. 

tower912

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Re: Wojo to Duke odds
« Reply #92 on: May 31, 2020, 08:48:19 AM »
If Wojo averages 20 wins a year at MU, Duke is going to see him as successful and believe that his Duke roots and the Duke mystique will be enough to sustain excellence.   Plus, when looking at the rest of the K tree, a guy averaging 20 wins per year for a decade at a high major will be better than other K acolytes and universally recognized as successful.(except on scoop)
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

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WarriorFan

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Re: Wojo to Duke odds
« Reply #93 on: May 31, 2020, 09:21:09 AM »
I honestly believe that the changes coming in Division 1  basketball will be in Wojo's favor. 
The teams and coaches that will struggle are:
a) those that are paying players or playing the game that gets players paid - because the professional options will pay more and without risk
b) those (like Calipari) that don't do any coaching anyway and just roll out the ball with a bunch of talented players

The coaches - like Wojo - who are clean (I sure as heck hope he is) and who get the "next best" guys already know how to play with the new rules. 

Duke administration should be smart enough to see what's coming... maybe MU will as well.
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79Warrior

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Re: Wojo to Duke odds
« Reply #94 on: May 31, 2020, 09:28:47 AM »
I don't think Buzz left because he couldn't recruit certain players anymore.

I do think he left because he didn't like to be told how to run his program. I don't think it matters what direction/restriction was given, it probably would have led to the same result.

The narrative that Wojo can't be as successful as Buzz because he can't recruit the same players is lazy and frankly untrue. There were maybe 3 or 4 guys that Buzz recruited that Wojo couldn't and 1 of the guys I'm thinking of was hardly a worldbeater. There are quite literally 100s of players that Wojo can recruit with no issue every year. He hasn't been as successful as Buzz because he's not as good of a coach as Buzz, at least not yet. That's the simple truth of it.

This is correct.

willie warrior

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Re: Q
« Reply #95 on: May 31, 2020, 09:45:27 AM »
He won with players less regarded than Wojo's.

FACTS:

Buzz: Two Sweet Sixteens, One Elite Eight.

Wojo: Let's talk about something else.

I'm totally with you Cheeks, Buzz bombed his last year.  Definitely deserves the criticism.  But when's the good year going to happen for Wojo?  And I know you're gonna come back with your crapshoot nonsense, but I think if any team is going to have success in the tourney, they're going to have to get a solid seed, right?  Well, we had a solid seed once (#5 seed, hey!) but unfortunately Wojo was derelict in his duty as a leader, and we lost six of our lost seven, then got demolished by a team who got demolished in the next round by a team that got demolished in the next round.  It's fair to judge that and not just punt.
This is really pretty easy to figure out, and I have little love for Wojo and less for Buzz. Buzz out performed Wojo easily in terms in winning and NCAA performance, and arguably with less talent. Although Buzz was great at getting JUCO players who became studs, Wojo, overall is a better recruiter, but is much poorer at preparation for games and in game coaching.
So who is/was a better coach? Easily, the down home lonesome cowboy was. If your bag is mediocre bland performance and eternal hope that Wojo with his Dookie pedigree will one day wake up and put it together then he is your boy. Just don't hold your breath. Hope Duke calls when K pastures out because that is where Wojo belongs. He will continue to land big time recruits, even bigger than at MU, but likely will never be near winning like K has. How long will the Dookies live with that? Do not think he will be Dukes top choice based on what he has done so far at MU.
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Herman Cain

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Re: Wojo to Duke odds
« Reply #96 on: May 31, 2020, 10:26:26 AM »
Mike

MU had 4 coaches over a 25 year period prior to Wojo. Even when you give Wojo a mulligan for year#1 here is where Wojo stands in a 5 man race:

Overall winning % :  4th, ahead of only KO, who inherited the worst MU program in 60 years.
Conference winning % : 5th (last)
NCAA tournament wins : 5th (last)

The previous four coaches had a combined conference winning % of .645. Even tossing out Wojo’s first year his conference winning % is over 100 points lower (.528).

The previous four coaches all won games in the NCAA tournament, totally 16 wins. They made the final 32 3 times, the S16 3 times, the E8 1 time and the FF one time. Wojo hasn’t won a game in the tourney.

KO, Crean and Buzz all won conference regular season titles. Deane won a conference tournament title. Zip for Wojo.

It is beyond a shadow of a doubt that our program has declined under Wojo. I’m not saying that his underperformance should be fireable, but the idea that being the 5th most successful MU coach (out of 5) over the last 25 years is a resume’ builder for the Duke job is laughable. Maybe K anoints him, but he certainly hasn’t earned it.
When Wojo first came on board, I posted a poll asking whether or not he would better Mike Deanes coaching record. I posted the same poll half way through Wojo's tenure. Now we know for a fact that Wojo has not out performed  Deane.

I Have consistently said that Wojo is a modern day Mike Deane. Wojo comes in a more polished and user friendly package than Deane for sure. However, bottom line, he is at the Deane level of Coaches as far as MU performance is concerned. Deane had an overall D1 coaching record of 412-308 for a .572 winning percentage.

Wojo has a pretty good thing going for his family. He can comfortably stay at MU till retirement and between now and then gross another $40 million or so ( 20 years at $2 Million per year). He has his recruiting strategy well oiled, i.e. basically target borderline 5 stars and offer them the keys to the car right away ( Henry, Markus , Dawson)  . This ensures no disastrous  years and as long as Lovell is the Boss-man life is great.

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MU82

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Re: Wojo to Duke odds
« Reply #97 on: May 31, 2020, 10:46:21 AM »
Not even taking into account that Deane couldn't recruit, that he was a drunk, that he was handed a good situation by KO and couldn't build on it, and that he played in a conference that was not as good as today's Big East, the whole "Wojo is Deane" thing is beyond ridiculous.

DEANE'S LAST 4 YEARS:

95-96: Made NCAAs, won 1 tourney game.
96-97: Made NCAAs, lost in first round.
97-98: Missed tournament.
98-99: Went 14-15, missed tournament, got fired.

WOJO'S LAST 4 YEARS:

16-17: Made NCAAs, lost in first round.
17-18: Missed tournament.
18-19: Made NCAAs, lost in first round.
19-20: Made NCAAs (according to every single Bracket Matrix selector).

Yeah ... identical.

Numerous schools would fire a coach who went 14-15 in his fifth season after missing the tourney in Year 4, to go along with terrible recruiting and poor representation of the university.

Few schools would fire a coach who went 24-10 in his fifth season and 18-12 in his sixth, with NCAA tourney appearances each year, a top-20 recruiting class coming in and great representation of the university.

We've come to expect this kind of silliness from MUFINY/9-9-9. It's more surprising to see it from Lenny, who usually is pretty good at nuance and perspective.

Many things to criticize Wojo for, and I do it quite often. Being the same as or even worse than Mike Deane -- who really was running a "joke" (to quote another Scooper) of a program by Year 5 -- is absurd.
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WhiteTrash

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Re: Wojo to Duke odds
« Reply #98 on: May 31, 2020, 11:27:55 AM »
Good post MU82.  My concern is 14-15 might be our record next year. Where do we go from there? Especially since MU will most likely need to decide on Wojo's status.

WarriorDad

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Re: Wojo to Duke odds
« Reply #99 on: May 31, 2020, 12:25:05 PM »
I don't think Buzz left because he couldn't recruit certain players anymore.

I do think he left because he didn't like to be told how to run his program. I don't think it matters what direction/restriction was given, it probably would have led to the same result.

The narrative that Wojo can't be as successful as Buzz because he can't recruit the same players is lazy and frankly untrue. There were maybe 3 or 4 guys that Buzz recruited that Wojo couldn't and 1 of the guys I'm thinking of was hardly a worldbeater. There are quite literally 100s of players that Wojo can recruit with no issue every year. He hasn't been as successful as Buzz because he's not as good of a coach as Buzz, at least not yet. That's the simple truth of it.

Coach Williams is a better coach, and he also was allowed to recruit differently.  He also performed similarly to Wojo in the one year of the same conference Wojo coaches in with the same recruiting restrictions, despite being the better coach.
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