Anonymous Eagle Article

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

There can be many debates on the subject, but I think all MU fans definitely want the program to be striving for more (given the results of the past 5-6 years).  To me, I think it is as simple as just looking at the Big East in terms of players that played in the NBA this past year. 

Butler: 1 (Martin)
Creighton: 2 (McDermott, Thomas)
DePaul: 1 (Strus)
Marquette: 1 (Anderson) *You can include Burton as original MU recruit, but he wasn't a Wojo recruit, nor did he graduate MU
Providence: 1 (Dunn)
St. John's: 1 (Sampson)
Villanova: 7 (Archidiacono, Bridges, Brunson, DiVincenzo, Hart, Paschall, Spellman)
Xavier: 1 (Sumner)
Georgetown/Seton Hall: 0

Whenever the NBA draft is, it is safe to assume Bey is a 1st rounder, and that guys like Reed, Alexander, Marshall, Markus, Powell and Yurtseven will get drafted/look-ins too. 

In the BE, it's Villanova, followed by everyone else by a wide margin.  Given the lack of consistent NBA talent, you have to view guys like Cooley, Willard and Mack (before he left) were all over-performing given their talent pools.  You could also strongly argue that DePaul has been underperforming given the number of guys that have played in the NBA (Reed, Garrett, Henry, Strus), and their consistent last-place finishes.

I am assuming your are limiting this to players that played during the Wojo era correct?

[Badgerhater]

But the real question ... is the talent level of the roster decreasing?  I see one of the best-recruiting classes coming in, in addition to Carton transferring in.  So, I see no drop in talent.  Therefore, this is a non-problem.

Let’s archive this statement and see how this recruiting class turns out, both by development and roster turnover.   

[wadesworld]

Let’s archive this statement and see how this recruiting class turns out, both by development and roster turnover.

The good news is Oso works out with the guy who developed Howard for us, so he’ll obviously develop. I just hope Dawson and Justin can find trainers that will develop them for us.

[Its DJOver]

There can be many debates on the subject, but I think all MU fans definitely want the program to be striving for more (given the results of the past 5-6 years).  To me, I think it is as simple as just looking at the Big East in terms of players that played in the NBA this past year. 

Butler: 1 (Martin)
Creighton: 2 (McDermott, Thomas)
DePaul: 1 (Strus)
Marquette: 1 (Anderson) *You can include Burton as original MU recruit, but he wasn't a Wojo recruit, nor did he graduate MU
Providence: 1 (Dunn)
St. John's: 1 (Sampson)
Villanova: 7 (Archidiacono, Bridges, Brunson, DiVincenzo, Hart, Paschall, Spellman)
Xavier: 1 (Sumner)
Georgetown/Seton Hall: 0

Whenever the NBA draft is, it is safe to assume Bey is a 1st rounder, and that guys like Reed, Alexander, Marshall, Markus, Powell and Yurtseven will get drafted/look-ins too. 

In the BE, it's Villanova, followed by everyone else by a wide margin.  Given the lack of consistent NBA talent, you have to view guys like Cooley, Willard and Mack (before he left) were all over-performing given their talent pools.  You could also strongly argue that DePaul has been underperforming given the number of guys that have played in the NBA (Reed, Garrett, Henry, Strus), and their consistent last-place finishes.

Interesting approach, but it's definitely not "as simple as" that.  Perfect example; X in 17-18; 29-6, won the Beast, got a 1 seed, zero future NBA players (Marshall may get a look somewhere but is vastly overrated, similar story with Jones and Scruggs).  You can be a very good college player and not have any NBA success, see Scottie Reynolds, Trevon Bluiett, Kevin Jones, DJO, etc.

[dad's couch]

There can be many debates on the subject, but I think all MU fans definitely want the program to be striving for more (given the results of the past 5-6 years).  To me, I think it is as simple as just looking at the Big East in terms of players that played in the NBA this past year. 

Butler: 1 (Martin)
Creighton: 2 (McDermott, Thomas)
DePaul: 1 (Strus)
Marquette: 1 (Anderson) *You can include Burton as original MU recruit, but he wasn't a Wojo recruit, nor did he graduate MU
Providence: 1 (Dunn)
St. John's: 1 (Sampson)
Villanova: 7 (Archidiacono, Bridges, Brunson, DiVincenzo, Hart, Paschall, Spellman)
Xavier: 1 (Sumner)
Georgetown/Seton Hall: 0

Whenever the NBA draft is, it is safe to assume Bey is a 1st rounder, and that guys like Reed, Alexander, Marshall, Markus, Powell and Yurtseven will get drafted/look-ins too. 

In the BE, it's Villanova, followed by everyone else by a wide margin.  Given the lack of consistent NBA talent, you have to view guys like Cooley, Willard and Mack (before he left) were all over-performing given their talent pools.  You could also strongly argue that DePaul has been underperforming given the number of guys that have played in the NBA (Reed, Garrett, Henry, Strus), and their consistent last-place finishes.

Not a good argument. Great college players don't always transition to be great or even good NBA players. It is the same with college football. Just look at the number of draft misses.

Just for example. The 2016 All American Team were Brogdon, Heild, Bryce Johnson of UNC, Ben Simmons, Tyler Ulis of KY and Denzel Valentine.  2nd Team Kris Dunn, Perry Ellis, George Niang, Jakob Polti and Jarrod Utoff.

[MU24]

Ok but how many players transferred in?
Its a two way door. Players and families decide what is best for them, not the coaches.
Also with the age of one and done being basically nonexistent, transfers and players leaving to go pro after 2-3 years is going to skyrocket. Kids come in, maybe with the intention of finishing a degree or whatever but then decide they want $$$ and say eff it. Its gonna happen a lot.
Also, with the landscape of the pandemic right now maybe Brendan decided a year of playing would not benefit anymore than just going pro. Who knows.

[GoldenWarrior11]

I am assuming your are limiting this to players that played during the Wojo era correct?

Yes, correct.  Didn't make sense to extend the range further than '14.

[GoldenWarrior11]

Interesting approach, but it's definitely not "as simple as" that.  Perfect example; X in 17-18; 29-6, won the Beast, got a 1 seed, zero future NBA players (Marshall may get a look somewhere but is vastly overrated, similar story with Jones and Scruggs).  You can be a very good college player and not have any NBA success, see Scottie Reynolds, Trevon Bluiett, Kevin Jones, DJO, etc.

That's why I said that Mack (among others) overachieved, given their lack of NBA talent. 

[GoldenWarrior11]

Not a good argument. Great college players don't always transition to be great or even good NBA players. It is the same with college football. Just look at the number of draft misses.

Just for example. The 2016 All American Team were Brogdon, Heild, Bryce Johnson of UNC, Ben Simmons, Tyler Ulis of KY and Denzel Valentine.  2nd Team Kris Dunn, Perry Ellis, George Niang, Jakob Polti and Jarrod Utoff.

Read it again.  I never once said a program needs great/good NBA players.  I also started the entire post with saying there can be many debates on the subject.  I simply was looking at the number of players that each BE program made it to the NBA.  We are in the bottom-half of the BE with players making it to the NBA, regardless of playing time/skill.  I also think there's a strong argument to made regarding Villanova's dominance in the BE; they are developing players and getting them into the NBA.  They aren't recruiting blue chip one-and-dones either.  Thus, it is very possible to have a sustainable, winning program, with players regularly entering the NBA. 

[NorthernDancerColt]

Aw c'mon wades ... you gotta get hip to the rules:

Any Marquette player who develops over time into a better player, it is because he worked on his own, he worked with his family, he worked with fellow players or he worked with assistant coaches. Or he just had raw talent and it developed naturally. Wojo gets 0% of the credit.

Any Marquette player who doesn't develop over time into a better player, it is because Wojo is a de-motivating failure. Wojo gets 100% of the blame.

Got it now?

Exactly.

I wonder how much of this paradigm owes itself to Wojo’s unfortunately hoarse voice in timeouts, which leads to the usual suspects arrogantly impugning his intelligence.

Yet those same dimwits place Buzz’s “butcher, Baker, candlestick maker” dialect at the top of the Wechsler intelligence scale and rush to label him AL 2.0.

[Its DJOver]

That's why I said that Mack (among others) overachieved, given their NBA talent.

It's still a terrible metric to use.  Seton Hall currently has zero players in the NBA, but Powell will play somewhere, Whitehead played for 2 years, Delgado played for a season, and both Carrington and Rodriguez had 2 way contracts.  So by your count SH has zero, but in terms of talent, there's 5 players that have played in the Association, and Willard turned that into 1 NCAA win.  You say he's overachieving, there's an argument that he's underachieving based on the talent he has.  There's plenty of other flaws too.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

It's still a terrible metric to use.  Seton Hall currently has zero players in the NBA, but Powell with play somewhere, Whitehead played for 2 years, Delgado played for a season, and both Carrington and Rodriguez had 2 way contracts.  So by your count SH has zero, but in terms of talent, there's 5 players that have played in the Association, and Willard turned that into 1 NCAA win.  You say he's overachieving, there's an argument that he's underachieving based on the talent he has.  There's plenty of other flaws too.

I think there is a pretty strong correlation between future NBA talent and NCAA success.  There is a pretty good reason why Buzz succeeded when he did at MU.

[Uncle Rico]

I think there is a pretty strong correlation between future NBA talent and NCAA success.  There is a pretty good reason why Buzz succeeded when he did at MU.

Bingo

[Its DJOver]

I think there is a pretty strong correlation between future NBA talent and NCAA success.  There is a pretty good reason why Buzz succeeded when he did at MU.

Correlation is not causation.  Of course there are going to be success stories, but there are way too many outliers to say that you need NBA talent to win at the NCAA level.  Based on Warrior11 metric, Buzz's best team got to the E8 with one current NBA talent, and I gotta say, I don't think Juan's 2.7 ppg made a huge difference that year.

NBA level talent makes it easier to succeed at the NCAA level  (I'm not suggesting otherwise), but only looking at current NBA rosters to determine NCAA levels of success since '14 is a terrible metric. 

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Correlation is not causation.  Of course there are going to be success stories, but there are way too many outliers to say that you need NBA talent to win at the NCAA level.  Based on Warrior11 metric, Buzz's best team got to the E8 with one current NBA talent, and I gotta say, I don't think Juan's 2.7 ppg made a huge difference that year.

NBA level talent makes it easier to succeed at the NCAA level  (I'm not suggesting otherwise), but only looking at current NBA rosters to determine NCAA levels of success since '14 is a terrible metric. 

Enough correlation actually does imply causation.

Buzz's E8 team did have two additional players that had cups of coffee in the NBA BTW.

[Billy Hoyle]

Blankson - UNLV - mu starter who did absolutely tear it up at unlv to lessor competition. However there's an argument here that he was recruited over at Marquette.

Mason - LSU - probably a good thing he did transfer. He wasn't bad at Marquette but wasn't great. Absolutely awful at LSU.

Mbakwe - Minnesota - you are cheating quite a bit on this one. First he transferred to miama Dade CC out of Marquette. Played 11 games and limited minutes and then had to have surgery. At the same time Marquette had otule. Then we have to consider that while Minnesota is in a high major conference. Are they really a high major team? Once their he didn't do bad by any means. But was still a reserve as a senior on a very weak team.

Christopherson - Iowa State - averaged 1.3 ppg for Marquette in 18 games. Had surgery to start the year. There's a reason he transferred out of Marquette.

Bradley - Wichita State - transferred after sophomore year while being pegged to the bench and clearly recruited over. Do you also consider witchita state a high major now? Then do you believe them to be a high major in 2004?

Amoroso - San Diego State - you may be into something here. At least he was a solid player. Again however, do you really consider San Diego a high major?

Burton - Iowa State - transferred after playing for wojo?


I believe you missed the easiest one in Jamaal McKay

McKay never played for us (Buzz did him dirty) so i didn't include him. Thought about also including Newbill but, you know...

Blankson - transferred due to bad advice from his brother and jealousy of Wade's success. He was Barro's host on his OV at UNLV and told the kid to go to MU, leaving with his biggest mistake.

Mason - there was an injury or heart issue or something that affected his time at LSU. He had the talent but not the right attitude. #38 player in the country coming out of HS, thought he was going to the be the next Wade. Teammates, Travis in particular, hated his attitude. 

Mbakwe - Transferred to  JUCO so he didn't have to sit. Two of the teams Mbakwe was on won 20+, one NCAA 2nd round, and one NIT final. Double figure scorer all three years, led the BigTen in rebounding as a sophomore with over 10 a game and averaged 10 and 8.7 on a 23 win team. You're stretching to not call Minnesota a major.

Christopherson - 44% career three point shooter at ISU. 11.4 ppg game for his ISU career. I'd say we could have used that.

Bradley - Solid career at high mid-major (notice I put that in the original post). We definitely could have used him for depth.

Amoroso - again, "high mid-major." His transfer was his own doing. His attitude got out of control after the GAS game.

Burton - I did not remember exactly when he transferred but it was due to his mother's death. One cannot put that on Wojo.

So yes, we have lost a solid number who would have been contributors or even difference makers for us, but in most cases there were underlying issues leading to the the transfer that do not reflect poorly upon MU as a program or the coaches who were here.

[Its DJOver]

Enough correlation actually does imply causation.

Buzz's E8 team did have two additional players that had cups of coffee in the NBA BTW.

But that's not what Warrior11 lists was, it was current players in the NBA, our E8 team along with the SH example earlier both prove why that is a terrible metric.  I'm not saying that NBA level talent doesn't lead to NCAA success, it'd be stupid to suggest that.  I'm saying that there are way too many examples of great college players that had no NBA experience, as well as great college team that had little to no NBA level talent.  Suggesting that something is "as simple as" looking at the number of players that a team currently has the Association is a terrible metric. 

[GoldenWarrior11]

It's still a terrible metric to use.  Seton Hall currently has zero players in the NBA, but Powell will play somewhere, Whitehead played for 2 years, Delgado played for a season, and both Carrington and Rodriguez had 2 way contracts.  So by your count SH has zero, but in terms of talent, there's 5 players that have played in the Association, and Willard turned that into 1 NCAA win.  You say he's overachieving, there's an argument that he's underachieving based on the talent he has.  There's plenty of other flaws too.

You're doing a fabulous job at reading comprehension.  I said in the NBA this past year.  If anything, you have just strengthened the entire argument.

Yes, Seton Hall has had Delgado and Whitehead in the NBA in the past few years as well (and will have Powell this year too).  Providence has had Bentil, Cotton and Dunn.  Marquette, in comparison, has fallen short of other BE programs will getting players into the NBA.  Howard should absolutely get a look.  But, other than Markus and Henry (Juan was a Buzz recruit), there is a strong argument as to why Marquette struggles to consistently compete with the top-group of the BE.

Look at Georgetown.  They have had just one player in the past few years get to the NBA (Marcus Derrickson).  Georgetown has not made a tournament since 2015.

Again, this is just a snapshot; there are numerous others that make up the full picture. 

[GoldenWarrior11]

Double post.

[Its DJOver]

https://www.talkbasket.net/57400-which-colleges-have-the-most-active-nba-players

Of course a lot of the schools with the most NBA talent have had the most recent success, but no one can argue that I4, USC, Washington, and MU West have had the same level of success.  That is what your original list stipulates.

[Its DJOver]

You're doing a fabulous job at reading comprehension.  I said in the NBA this past year.  If anything, you have just strengthened the entire argument.

Yes, Seton Hall has had Delgado and Whitehead in the NBA in the past few years as well (and will have Powell this year too).  Providence has had Bentil, Cotton and Dunn.  Marquette, in comparison, has fallen short of other BE programs will getting players into the NBA.  Howard should absolutely get a look.  But, other than Markus and Henry (Juan was a Buzz recruit), there is a strong argument as to why Marquette struggles to consistently compete with the top-group of the BE.

Look at Georgetown.  They have had just one player in the past few years get to the NBA (Marcus Derrickson).  Georgetown has not made a tournament since 2015.

Again, this is just a snapshot; there are numerous others that make up the full picture.

So if PC and SH have had so much talent and turned it into 1 NCAA win a piece, why did you say that Cooley and Willard were overachieving?

Also, bolded directly contradicts your "as simple as" post earlier which is the one I took exception to.

[GoldenWarrior11]

Correlation is not causation.  Of course there are going to be success stories, but there are way too many outliers to say that you need NBA talent to win at the NCAA level.  Based on Warrior11 metric, Buzz's best team got to the E8 with one current NBA talent, and I gotta say, I don't think Juan's 2.7 ppg made a huge difference that year.

NBA level talent makes it easier to succeed at the NCAA level  (I'm not suggesting otherwise), but only looking at current NBA rosters to determine NCAA levels of success since '14 is a terrible metric.

Jamil and Vander also played in the NBA.  The last time MU won a tournament game, we had multiple players that ended up playing in the NBA.

[Its DJOver]

Jamil and Vander also played in the NBA.  The last time MU won a tournament game, we had multiple players that ended up playing in the NBA.

Which is not what your original list was consisting of. 

[Galway Eagle]

Jamil and Vander also played in the NBA.  The last time MU won a tournament game, we had multiple players that ended up playing in the NBA.

Also last time MU was below .500 we had multiple players that ended up playing in the NBA. Maybe NBA players aren't the best correlation.

[Its DJOver]

I think this is also a fact of the type of players that the NBA values versus the type of players that Buzz and Wojo recruited.  The NBA values athleticism over almost everything else, this is why certain players (Deonte, Juan) end up getting contracts, even though they weren't necessarily great college basketball players.  Wojo, at least initialy, valued shooting over everything else.  Carlino was a very good college player that was never going to be an NBA player because of his lack of athleticism.  Similar story for Rowsey.  Main factor why Markus will likely not last too long.  Doesn't mean that they weren't good college players, just that they weren't what the NBA wants.