Bottom Line On Wojo

[Cheeks]

Really? The IU game you cite, and clearly did not see, was a 1 point game at halftime. I think we lost by nine. I guess that is an ass kicking in your book.

Close at halftime doesn't count...see MU vs South Carolina a few years ago and ask about 20 posters.   We scored 21 points in the second half against IU that game....IU was the best team in college which I realize.

[Lennys Tap]

We played a great IU team and far from an ass whoppin'. That was a great game against two powerhouse teams.

Goose,

Mrs. Lenny and I drove from Houston to Baton Rouge for that game. Probably Al’s 2nd best team (after the 70-71 Warriors), but IU’s top 6 guy were NBA players, Knight was at the top of his game and we went cold in the second half. Tough loss.

[Eldon]

We will be bickering for the next two decades over coaches. I again remind us to look back at the university administration’s actions seven plus seasons ago that adopted ex-judicial academic requirements on student athletes.

The types of players who were accepted under EVERY coach in Marquette’s basketball history until that time, and who were critical and center to MU’s most successful basketball teams, were now not accepted. There was one JUCO player accepted in ALL MU sports sine then, and who MU academically handheld starting from high school to ensure he would be eligible, transferred before he could play. One of the reasons was because his coach wanted him to redshirt so he could shore up his academic progression track (and not have to sit for dropping a class).

Since that time, MU has not won an NCAA game. Not under two coaches. One who had achieved a consistently high level of success not seen in decades, who all of a sudden didn’t. The other, a top, long-term assistant under the best college coach of all-time. The BOT hired Wojo under the belief Wojo could win under these new rules, and indeed have rewarded him with three contracts for reaching a lower level of success

Now, we will argue whether Wojo is a good game coach (he’s not), a recruiter (mixed), face (he is), team manager (mixed), systems (offensively he is), etc. , but the fact of the matter we must now realize, that under these requirements, not Buzz, Al, Rick, KO, Deane, Hank or Wojo are likely to have sustained success on the floor.

The university’s expectations do not match those of the fans. Something has fundamentally changed in the historical mission of the university and we keep blaming the basketball coaches.

This post tipped the scale for me.

You have supplanted Guns n Ammo as my favorite poster.

Well done.

[WhoaJoe2020]

This post tipped the scale for me.

You have supplanted Guns n Ammo as my favorite poster.

Well done.

It's a decent take, but NCAA rules governing JUCO transfers also changed in 2014, becoming much more onerous and affected JUCO transfers nationwide, not just at Marquette.

Oddly, under these conditions, a guy like Wojo seems the most likely to succeed when recruiting in a climate of strict academic compliance. Next years class is a small sample size but it does suggest this may be true.

[4everwarriors]

Goose,

Mrs. Lenny and I drove from Houston to Baton Rouge for that game. Probably Al’s 2nd best team (after the 70-71 Warriors), but IU’s top 6 guy were NBA players, Knight was at the top of his game and we went cold in the second half. Tough loss.

Eye wuz der two, Lenny Man, hey?

[keefe]

And of course, according to you that is the only credible education to have. All others are not really educations.

Willie

I genuinely appreciate guys like you, ATWiz, Wags who grew up as MU fans and remain passionate despite other allegiances.

Marquette basketball is a special thing. There is more than enough room on the bandwagon.

 

[Goose]

Lenny,

I agree that was Al's second best team. Unfortunately IU was a better team. I would love to see another heavyweight battle like that again in my lifetime. While very disappointed after that loss, it was one of my all time favorite MU games.

[Herman Cain]

Dont know what you have against 70 year olds. And sorry, dont have an MU education unless you count CEUs back in the day
BBA and MBA from UW Whitewster and proud of it. MU fan since@53 or 54. Long time ago--memories fade. Have never spent time looking for unicorns. Too busy getting to 70+.

Willie you have a great history of following the program. Would love to hear about your thoughts on some of the better players and  teams in the Pre Al era .

[TSmith34, Inc.]

I thought he meant age 53 or 54. The @ before the numbers threw me off.

My bad.

Actually, you may be right.

[willie warrior]

Willie you have a great history of following the program. Would love to hear about your thoughts on some of the better players and  teams in the Pre Al era .

Pre Al Era: Don Kojis one of the best ever at MU. 6' 5" and at one time was MUs career rebound leader. Walt Mangham, a great rebounder. Dick Nixon, best dribbler MU has ever had. He and Sam Worthen (later) were truly ball wizards. As I recall Russ Wittberger was a pretty good ball player. MU has had great ones through all eras.

[willie warrior]

All names that make me shudder. The difference, however, between Pavia and the rest is that the others were (justifiably) committed to beating MU, while Pavia was supposed to be impartial.

Another infamy nominee: Kelly Tripucka. And the all time punk Diefendorker

[willie warrior]

Goose,

Mrs. Lenny and I drove from Houston to Baton Rouge for that game. Probably Al’s 2nd best team (after the 70-71 Warriors), but IU’s top 6 guy were NBA players, Knight was at the top of his game and we went cold in the second half. Tough loss.

Al did have some stud teams.  The 74 team was NCAA runner up if I remember. That IU team that went undefeated  was a dream team. Thought the 69-70 team  that won the NIT was damn good, but did not follow them because of attending to small things in Vietnam. Al could sure bring in Quality BB players, and had some great teams and players.

[Goose]

Willie

You know your stuff and thanks for sharing on here. I hope you see the program that we dream about.

[Cheeks]

Dont know what you have against 70 year olds. And sorry, dont have an MU education unless you count CEUs back in the day
BBA and MBA from UW Whitewster and proud of it. MU fan since@53 or 54. Long time ago--memories fade. Have never spent time looking for unicorns. Too busy getting to 70+.

Generally speaking I don't have anything against 70 year olds....but do against turds in general who offer nothing, but negatives all the time.  People want to push back on coaching, or players, or whatever...fine....but I cannot think of a time where you ever have anything positive to say.  And I do mean ever, which I don't like using because it is such a lazy word.  Life cannot be this miserable for you and a few others...can it?  At your wise age, can it really be this miserable?  It reminds me of a buddy of mine who is a Packers fan and in the 90's his dad would complain nonstop about how much they were throwing the ball...he wanted 3 yards and cloud of dust, the Lombardi sweep, etc.  Constantly.  It was never good enough. 

[Cheeks]

We will be bickering for the next two decades over coaches. I again remind us to look back at the university administration’s actions seven plus seasons ago that adopted ex-judicial academic requirements on student athletes.

The types of players who were accepted under EVERY coach in Marquette’s basketball history until that time, and who were critical and center to MU’s most successful basketball teams, were now not accepted. There was one JUCO player accepted in ALL MU sports sine then, and who MU academically handheld starting from high school to ensure he would be eligible, transferred before he could play. One of the reasons was because his coach wanted him to redshirt so he could shore up his academic progression track (and not have to sit for dropping a class).

Since that time, MU has not won an NCAA game. Not under two coaches. One who had achieved a consistently high level of success not seen in decades, who all of a sudden didn’t. The other, a top, long-term assistant under the best college coach of all-time. The BOT hired Wojo under the belief Wojo could win under these new rules, and indeed have rewarded him with three contracts for reaching a lower level of success

Now, we will argue whether Wojo is a good game coach (he’s not), a recruiter (mixed), face (he is), team manager (mixed), systems (offensively he is), etc. , but the fact of the matter we must now realize, that under these requirements, not Buzz, Al, Rick, KO, Deane, Hank or Wojo are likely to have sustained success on the floor.

The university’s expectations do not match those of the fans. Something has fundamentally changed in the historical mission of the university and we keep blaming the basketball coaches.

It's sad that some people believe that is the only way to win, when there are plenty of programs winning with those same restrictions.  Aim high.  Why settle?  It is done elsewhere, it can be done here.  Shortcuts seem to be the rage for some....no patience of any kind.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

We will be bickering for the next two decades over coaches. I again remind us to look back at the university administration’s actions seven plus seasons ago that adopted ex-judicial academic requirements on student athletes.

The types of players who were accepted under EVERY coach in Marquette’s basketball history until that time, and who were critical and center to MU’s most successful basketball teams, were now not accepted. There was one JUCO player accepted in ALL MU sports sine then, and who MU academically handheld starting from high school to ensure he would be eligible, transferred before he could play. One of the reasons was because his coach wanted him to redshirt so he could shore up his academic progression track (and not have to sit for dropping a class).

Since that time, MU has not won an NCAA game. Not under two coaches. One who had achieved a consistently high level of success not seen in decades, who all of a sudden didn’t. The other, a top, long-term assistant under the best college coach of all-time. The BOT hired Wojo under the belief Wojo could win under these new rules, and indeed have rewarded him with three contracts for reaching a lower level of success

The university’s expectations do not match those of the fans. Something has fundamentally changed in the historical mission of the university and we keep blaming the basketball coaches.

Dr. B, I like you, but I can't agree with this take. To my knowledge, there is exactly 1 player from the Buzz years who Wojo couldn't have recruited for academic reasons. There is maybe 1 more that would have taken a lot of convincing due to academics (and he wasn't a JUCO).

This myth that we can't win basketball games because elite basketball players either have conduct issues or bad grades is not true and is frankly a problematic narrative. The real reason for the lack of JUCOs in men's basketball (I'm not as well versed in other sports so I can't speak for them) is that the talent pool in the JUCO ranks is extremely shallow. I have done the research and there are usually between 5-10 JUCOs a year who end up starting for high major programs. Buzz was extremely well connected in those ranks and spoiled us for a couple of years which gave us an inflated sense of the talent there. But the reality is with over 350 schools offering full scholarships to play at the D1 level, there is plenty of room for players to go straight to a 4-year institution, they don't need to go to JUCOs to get better offers anymore. They can play at St. Francis, Loyola (MD), or Florida A&M for a year or two and if they are good enough for a high major they can transfer up. There is the rare recruit such as St. John's LJ Figueroa who decides to go JUCO after a year at the D1 level to avoid the required redshirt year but there simply isn't a lot of elite talent in JUCO ranks anymore. Despite this, Wojo has recruited a JUCO for almost every class. He didn't land any of them, but to my knowledge, the only one of them who ended up being a high major level starter was Darral Willis Jr (who ended up at Wichita State), so the issue seemed to be they weren't good enough, not that Marquette blocked them.

To illustrate my point, here are all of the players recruited from JUCOs on the rosters of the 30 teams currently ranked above us on KenPom. There are 14 total or less than .5 per team. Of those 14 only 3 are starters (Seton Hall's Romaro Gill, Oregon's Chris Duarte, and Arkansas' Mason Jones). In addition to those 3, 2 play starter level minutes but come off the bench (Baylor's Devonte Bandoo and Illinois' Andres Feliz). Only 2 of the 30 teams have more than 1 on the roster and all 4 of those players come off the bench for 13 minutes or less. If the JUCO ranks were this haven of elite talent, wouldn't there be more of them starting on the top teams in the country?

Kansas: None
Duke: None
Gonzaga: None
Baylor: Devonte Bandoo (24.4 mpg)
Dayton: Jhery Matos (9.3 mpg)
West Virginia: Tajzmel Sherman (11.5 mpg), Sean McNeil (13.6 mpg)
Michigan State: None
San Diego State: Trey Pulliam (17.6 mpg)
Maryland: None
Louisville: None
Seton Hall: Romaro Gill (23.1 mpg)
Ohio State: None
Arizona: None
Iowa: None
Butler: None
Villanova: None
Oregon: Chris Duarte (29.6 mpg)
Florida State: RayQuan Evans (9.5 mpg), Nathanael Jack (6.3 mpg)
BYU: None
Colorado: Maddox Daniels (13.6 mpg)
Illinois: Andres Feliz (25.3 mpg)
Penn State: None
Houston: Chris Harris Jr (17.6 mpg)
Purdue: None
Kentucky: None
Rutgers: Shazville Carter (11.5 mpg)
Michigan: None
Arkansas: Mason Jones (32.9 mpg)
Creighton: None
Texas Tech: None

In addition to the 14 players listed, there were two former JUCOs who grad transferred to their current institutions from other D1 programs. I didn't include them because they graduated from another 4 year institution and wouldn't have been impacted by the so called academic restrictions. In fact, we recruited one of them but ended up with Jayce instead.

It's sad that some people believe that is the only way to win, when there are plenty of programs winning with those same restrictions.  Aim high.  Why settle?  It is done elsewhere, it can be done here.  Shortcuts seem to be the rage for some....no patience of any kind.

To be clear, Cheekz holier than thou take is equally bad. Buzz wasn't successful because he was able to recruit whoever he wanted. He won because he knew how to identify talent and put pieces together to make  a winning basketball team every year but his last. The reason Wojo hasn't been as successfully isn't because he has limits on his recruiting, its because at this point in his career he's not as good of a coach as Buzz was.

[Lennys Tap]

Eye wuz der two, Lenny Man, hey?

Wish I would have known you then, Doc. I needed a fellow fanatic to drown my sorrows with (Mrs. Lenny was and is awesome but was much more balanced about Warrior defeats than I was then - I’m better now - less testosterone and much more frequent losses will do that).

[Goose]

TAMU

Watching the game and limited time to reply. But, there is a hole in your theory, IMO. Top programs have far less need to fill gaps with Juco’s. I would not take Juco’s if we were top ten recruiting every year, but that is not the case. Programs like MU benefit by taking Juco’s, especially in years that missing one piece. Just my take.

[79Warrior]

Close at halftime doesn't count...see MU vs South Carolina a few years ago and ask about 20 posters.   We scored 21 points in the second half against IU that game....IU was the best team in college which I realize.

IU was the last undefeated team. They were unbelievable. Sorry, South Carolina is hardly an appropriate comparison . We played IU in the second round, two of the greatest coaches in the game. 32 teams made the tourney. Today it's 60 plus teams and Wojo can't win one. Hopefully he will soon.

[tower912]

Reassessed every game.   

[Mr. Sand-Knit]

Like Wojo or not, if u cant tip ur hat to Wojo n the team after that win on the road w/o Markus then u are a complete loser and simply a hater.  Coach K and John Wooden lose that game down 6-8 late with no Markus 99 out of 100

[Windyplayer]

Is this a joke? I’m thrilled to get the W. Thrilled. But Wojo was terrible. Literally, no reason for Sacar to hit that second free throw at the end of double OT and his decisions on fouling were so, so poor.  Koby and Sacar took the team on their backs, which was amazing to witness. Wojo can improve and I’m not Nojo, but he didn’t do himself any favors in my book tonight.

[MUEng92]

Is this a joke? I’m thrilled to get the W. Thrilled. But Wojo was terrible. Literally, no reason for Sacar to hit that second free throw at the end of double OT and his decisions on fouling were so, so poor.  Koby and Sacar took the team on their backs, which was amazing to witness. Wojo can improve and I’m not Nojo, but he didn’t do himself any favors in my book tonight.

He both told the players to foul and the refs they were going to foul.  What else should he do since he can’t go Woody Hayes and do it himself?

[IrwinFletcher]

Is this a joke? I’m thrilled to get the W. Thrilled. But Wojo was terrible. Literally, no reason for Sacar to hit that second free throw at the end of double OT and his decisions on fouling were so, so poor.  Koby and Sacar took the team on their backs, which was amazing to witness. Wojo can improve and I’m not Nojo, but he didn’t do himself any favors in my book tonight.

50 minutes of clock time and you pick out a 2-3 things you objected to and rip the coach.  Some people are so filled with hatred, they can never come back.

Enjoy the rest of the season and cheering for losses, because that will get rid of our coach.

[Windyplayer]

50 minutes of clock time and you pick out a 2-3 things you objected to and rip the coach.  Some people are so filled with hatred, they can never come back.

Enjoy the rest of the season and cheering for losses, because that will get rid of our coach.

No way, man, like I said, thrilled we won - still am and will be all day tomorrow - but why can’t we question the process? I would argue that a coach has 2-3 opportunities to really impact the game one way or another. At any rate, let’s celebrate while knowing there’s still plenty of room for growth for Wojo.