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Author Topic: Bottom Line On Wojo  (Read 16198 times)

Galway Eagle

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #50 on: January 29, 2020, 10:09:50 AM »


The difference, keefe, as you know, is in the past it did not matter. Teams with great players would still get their asses kicked by the Warriors. We've lost that lovin' feelin', aina?

David Thompson, Rick Mount, Quin Buckner, etc.

There'll always be a player that haunts our dreams from every era just as there will always be those that we beat (Dunn, Walker, Brunson, Etc)
Maigh Eo for Sam

79Warrior

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #51 on: January 29, 2020, 10:13:29 AM »
We got our ass kicked in the NCAAs even under Al at times.  Kentucky, IU, etc.

Really? The IU game you cite, and clearly did not see, was a 1 point game at halftime. I think we lost by nine. I guess that is an ass kicking in your book.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #52 on: January 29, 2020, 10:33:03 AM »
We will be bickering for the next two decades over coaches. I again remind us to look back at the university administration’s actions seven plus seasons ago that adopted ex-judicial academic requirements on student athletes.

The types of players who were accepted under EVERY coach in Marquette’s basketball history until that time, and who were critical and center to MU’s most successful basketball teams, were now not accepted. There was one JUCO player accepted in ALL MU sports sine then, and who MU academically handheld starting from high school to ensure he would be eligible, transferred before he could play. One of the reasons was because his coach wanted him to redshirt so he could shore up his academic progression track (and not have to sit for dropping a class).

Since that time, MU has not won an NCAA game. Not under two coaches. One who had achieved a consistently high level of success not seen in decades, who all of a sudden didn’t. The other, a top, long-term assistant under the best college coach of all-time. The BOT hired Wojo under the belief Wojo could win under these new rules, and indeed have rewarded him with three contracts for reaching a lower level of success

Now, we will argue whether Wojo is a good game coach (he’s not), a recruiter (mixed), face (he is), team manager (mixed), systems (offensively he is), etc. , but the fact of the matter we must now realize, that under these requirements, not Buzz, Al, Rick, KO, Deane, Hank or Wojo are likely to have sustained success on the floor.

The university’s expectations do not match those of the fans. Something has fundamentally changed in the historical mission of the university and we keep blaming the basketball coaches.

So true.

Pillarz and LW are (thankfully) gone but the people who hired them aren’t. So their “legacy” lives on. Too bad.

MU82

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #53 on: January 29, 2020, 10:37:03 AM »
We will be bickering for the next two decades over coaches. I again remind us to look back at the university administration’s actions seven plus seasons ago that adopted ex-judicial academic requirements on student athletes.

The types of players who were accepted under EVERY coach in Marquette’s basketball history until that time, and who were critical and center to MU’s most successful basketball teams, were now not accepted. There was one JUCO player accepted in ALL MU sports sine then, and who MU academically handheld starting from high school to ensure he would be eligible, transferred before he could play. One of the reasons was because his coach wanted him to redshirt so he could shore up his academic progression track (and not have to sit for dropping a class).

Since that time, MU has not won an NCAA game. Not under two coaches. One who had achieved a consistently high level of success not seen in decades, who all of a sudden didn’t. The other, a top, long-term assistant under the best college coach of all-time. The BOT hired Wojo under the belief Wojo could win under these new rules, and indeed have rewarded him with three contracts for reaching a lower level of success

Now, we will argue whether Wojo is a good game coach (he’s not), a recruiter (mixed), face (he is), team manager (mixed), systems (offensively he is), etc. , but the fact of the matter we must now realize, that under these requirements, not Buzz, Al, Rick, KO, Deane, Hank or Wojo are likely to have sustained success on the floor.

The university’s expectations do not match those of the fans. Something has fundamentally changed in the historical mission of the university and we keep blaming the basketball coaches.

Outstanding, interesting, relevant post. It's why I like give props to Al, KO, Crean and Buzz, and I don't say things like, "Well, Crean would have been nothing without Wade" or "Buzz relied so much on Jucos" or "Al brought in all kinds of questionable 'student'-athletes." Each coach used the rules that he was under at the time, and each had success doing so. Wojo also has had a degree of success using the rules he is expected to follow; hopefully, he will be more successful going forward.

I also like the discussion between skianth and Lenny. I'm guessing the middle ground is probably where something closest to the "truth" lies: Recruiting is the lifeblood of a program, but a program will only go so far if the recruiting is not accompanied by excellent coaching.

I do disagree with one line Lenny said in response to my post:

You don’t think it’s a big deal that he didn’t know the score of a tie game with 20 seconds left. I think it’s huge.

I actually have said on more than one occasion in more than one thread that it was a big mistake. Those were my exact words. However, I don't believe Wojo is or should be defined by that one mistake or that it somehow "proves" he never will be a good college coach. He might never be a good college coach, but it won't be because he made that mistake in that situation in that game IMHO.

Though I believe it was the most obvious big mistake in that game, I don't even think it was the biggest big mistake. Letting Baldwin easily get to the spot he wanted to get to over and over and over and over again ... THAT, in my opinion, is what lost us the game. I am far more concerned about that than a brain fart of a mistake (albeit a big brain fart) that I would bet will never, ever happen again on his watch.
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

Goose

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #54 on: January 29, 2020, 10:40:28 AM »
Dr. B

I have been preaching that since Buzz's second last year. I believe your post to be 100% on target. MU brass made a decision and created internal expectations that have likely been met. Only problem to me is, they never told the fans that expectations changed. To be fair, goals/hopes probably did not change, they just got nearly impossible to hit.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #55 on: January 29, 2020, 10:48:15 AM »
So true.

Pillarz and LW are (thankfully) gone but the people who hired them aren’t. So their “legacy” lives on. Too bad.


Only four of the trustees around when SP and LW were hired are still on the Board.  There are 24 outside trustees, most of which have been appointed during the Lovell administration.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

Lennys Tap

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #56 on: January 29, 2020, 10:57:35 AM »

Only four of the trustees around when SP and LW were hired are still on the Board.  There are 24 outside trustees, most of which have been appointed during the Lovell administration.

In that case I stand corrected. Maybe there’s hope after all.

GooooMarquette

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #57 on: January 29, 2020, 10:58:39 AM »
Names that will live in infamy:

Jean-Felix Moupegnou...Ja Morant...Sindarius Thornwell...Quincy Pondexter...Kim English...Brook Lopez...Austin Croshere...and PETER F#CKING PAVIA


All names that make me shudder. The difference, however, between Pavia and the rest is that the others were (justifiably) committed to beating MU, while Pavia was supposed to be impartial.

MUfan12

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #58 on: January 29, 2020, 11:23:23 AM »
In that case I stand corrected. Maybe there’s hope after all.

If they're anything like Lovell, I wouldn't get your hopes up.

keefe

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #59 on: January 29, 2020, 01:09:07 PM »
Really? The IU game you cite, and clearly did not see, was a 1 point game at halftime. I think we lost by nine. I guess that is an ass kicking in your book.

Furthermore, that IU team went undefeated and is heralded among the greatest college teams of all-time.

May, Buckner, Benson, Wilkerson, and Abernathy were a 32-0 juggernaut that went into the Dance as the consensus #1 with Marquette as the #2.

Marquette played them tough but ran out of gas at the end.

Al said that this was the real National Championship game and he was probably right in saying so.


Death on call

keefe

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #60 on: January 29, 2020, 01:12:59 PM »

Only four of the trustees around when SP and LW were hired are still on the Board.  There are 24 outside trustees, most of which have been appointed during the Lovell administration.

Hopefully the Zizzo Group is still there to provide deep marketing insight for the next century...

Marquette Gold


Death on call

NorthernDancerColt

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #61 on: January 29, 2020, 02:05:28 PM »
If they're anything like Lovell, I wouldn't get your hopes up.

This whole narrative is asinine. You don’t get a top5 haul/cache of Garcia, Lewis, Oso, and probably Mane by being severely hamstringed. And if the recruiting firm of Johnson, Wojciechowski, and Killings indeed secured this stellar crop of young athletes and minds (last I checked their academic bonafides are super) while operating under strict academic qualifications guidelines? Seems like massive raises are in order. Wow, DOING IT THE RIGHT WAY. Imagine that.
Zenyatta has a lot....a lot... of ground to make up. She gets there from here she’d be a super horse......what’s this.....Zenyatta hooked to the grandstand side....Zenyatta flying on the outside....this....is...un-belieeeeeevable!...looked impossible at the top of the stretch...

willie warrior

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #62 on: January 29, 2020, 02:09:21 PM »
An example of a 70+ man who has lost his marbles and slipped through the cracks to earn a MU education and is stuck in another century looking for unicorns.   Check
Dont know what you have against 70 year olds. And sorry, dont have an MU education unless you count CEUs back in the day
BBA and MBA from UW Whitewster and proud of it. MU fan since@53 or 54. Long time ago--memories fade. Have never spent time looking for unicorns. Too busy getting to 70+.
I thought you were dead. Willie lives rent free in Reekers mind.

Goose

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #63 on: January 29, 2020, 02:11:15 PM »
We played a great IU team and far from an ass whoppin'. That was a great game against two powerhouse teams.

willie warrior

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #64 on: January 29, 2020, 02:11:57 PM »
Doesn't have a MU education.
And of course, according to you that is the only credible education to have. All others are not really educations.
I thought you were dead. Willie lives rent free in Reekers mind.

NorthernDancerColt

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #65 on: January 29, 2020, 02:17:38 PM »
Dont know what you have against 70 year olds. And sorry, dont have an MU education unless you count CEUs back in the day
BBA and MBA from UW Whitewster and proud of it. MU fan since@53 or 54. Long time ago--memories fade. Have never spent time looking for unicorns. Too busy getting to 70+.

Good for you, willie. I would never knock someone for where they went to school, and I don’t think Tower would either...he was just pointing out a fact. Congrats on becoming a septuagenarian. I will be lucky to make it 60. Thank You for following our beloved Warrior Eagles. 
Zenyatta has a lot....a lot... of ground to make up. She gets there from here she’d be a super horse......what’s this.....Zenyatta hooked to the grandstand side....Zenyatta flying on the outside....this....is...un-belieeeeeevable!...looked impossible at the top of the stretch...

tower912

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #66 on: January 29, 2020, 02:19:53 PM »
And of course, according to you that is the only credible education to have. All others are not really educations.
Nope.   Just correcting a wrong assumption. 
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #67 on: January 29, 2020, 02:22:20 PM »
This whole narrative is asinine. You don’t get a top5 haul/cache of Garcia, Lewis, Oso, and probably Mane by being severely hamstringed. And if the recruiting firm of Johnson, Wojciechowski, and Killings indeed secured this stellar crop of young athletes and minds (last I checked their academic bonafides are super) while operating under strict academic qualifications guidelines? Seems like massive raises are in order. Wow, DOING IT THE RIGHT WAY. Imagine that.


Yeah there is nothing wrong with the talent being brought in.  It's mostly how that talent is being coached that concerns me.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.” - Clarence Darrow

WhoaJoe2020

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #68 on: January 29, 2020, 02:26:55 PM »
Dont know what you have against 70 year olds. And sorry, dont have an MU education unless you count CEUs back in the day
BBA and MBA from UW Whitewster and proud of it. MU fan since@53 or 54. Long time ago--memories fade. Have never spent time looking for unicorns. Too busy getting to 70+.

Then you would think that those of us about twenty years younger than you, who have followed MU twenty years longer than you, would have more of a right to be outraged by the current state of the MU BB program.

I'm not angry about it at all.

I wonder why that is.

MUDPT

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #69 on: January 29, 2020, 02:33:37 PM »
Jordan Sperber's podcast is great, but he had Fran Fraschilla on last month? to talk a bunch of coaching points.  He talked about how hard coach is now, with all of the strategy involved with offensive and defensive schemes.  I don't think Wojo is a great coach now, but he may be in 5 years.  Any young coach in his same situation is going to make mistakes (maybe not as bad as not knowing the score).  I put that on the administration who have continually hired assistants as head coaches.  When you make the decision, you essentially are also telling yourself there will also be some growing up to do. 

Some things have changed for the better. He's way less demonstrative on the sidelines (remember when he broke that clipboard in Orlando is first year?).  The defense has changed. 2 years ago, Heldt was hedging every ball screen 40 feet from the basket.  Last year, they were Iceing every high ball screen.  This year he has tried to switch more and keep Theo close to the basket. Offensively, he runs a lot of nice plays, the boomerang screens for Markus on the baseline, or the empty Horns sets for Sacar late in the game.

Two things that stand out negative are the Hauser injury situation and the over reliance on Markus.  We can debate the "dumb and dangerous" take, but watching KD go down in the Finals last year, it probably would have been SH's best interests to not play in the NIT.  He's coached a little bit like a lame duck GM who trades away prospects/ draft picks to win now and hampers the future.  I think he believes Markus is the key to any type of success and has taken the hand brake off, much like Crean did with Diener his junior and senior years. 

I always come back to the "Ferentz conundrum." Iowa football is consistently good, sometimes great, and rarely bad.  Do you take those results year after year?  Or do you risk trying to go a different route and starting over with the hope that you might be as good as you were under the last guy?

4everwarriors

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #70 on: January 29, 2020, 02:43:22 PM »
We got our ass kicked in the NCAAs even under Al at times.  Kentucky, IU, etc.



Not by lower seeded teams, mid-majors, or in the first game, hey?
"Give 'Em Hell, Al"

skianth16

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #71 on: January 29, 2020, 02:44:05 PM »
This whole narrative is asinine. You don’t get a top5 haul/cache of Garcia, Lewis, Oso, and probably Mane by being severely hamstringed. And if the recruiting firm of Johnson, Wojciechowski, and Killings indeed secured this stellar crop of young athletes and minds (last I checked their academic bonafides are super) while operating under strict academic qualifications guidelines? Seems like massive raises are in order. Wow, DOING IT THE RIGHT WAY. Imagine that.

I agree that landing this recruiting class, especially with the fog of Hausershima hanging over his head, was a big accomplishment for Wojo. I disagree that simply signing the recruits is worthy of a raise, certainly not a massiveon. Let's wait until we see that Wojo is able to actually win with these guys before hanging the banners and signing the checks.

TSmith34, Inc.

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #72 on: January 29, 2020, 03:50:06 PM »
Then you would think that those of us about twenty years younger than you, who have followed MU twenty years longer than you, would have more of a right to be outraged by the current state of the MU BB program.
You've been an MU fan since '33 or '34?  Impressive.
If you think for one second that I am comparing the USA to China you have bumped your hard.

Cheeks

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #73 on: January 29, 2020, 04:05:02 PM »


Not by lower seeded teams, mid-majors, or in the first game, hey?

In the tournament, not under Al (Raymonds did, Majerus never got there)....got drilled a few times, but by good teams.  In non NCAA, people seem to forget some bad losses in the regular season to Detroit Mercy, Cincinnati, Wichita State, etc.   Yes, Al had his clunkers, too, and with a much better team than we have now.  So yes, we are going to lose some games now, moreso than in the past, and at times by big margins.  1970's is long gone.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2020, 04:07:47 PM by Cheeks »
"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

WhoaJoe2020

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #74 on: January 29, 2020, 04:06:33 PM »
You've been an MU fan since '33 or '34?  Impressive.

I thought he meant age 53 or 54. The @ before the numbers threw me off.

My bad.

 

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