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Author Topic: Bottom Line On Wojo  (Read 16195 times)

MU82

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Bottom Line On Wojo
« on: January 28, 2020, 12:48:50 PM »
Over the last couple of years, especially since Hausershima, Scoopers who have been mostly Projo have been asked by the Nojos something along the lines of: "What would it take to finally make you want to get rid of him?" I hadn't answered the question because I didn't see any need to speculate about such a thing when he generally was meeting my expectations.

However, while answering a different question in another thread today, I did end up stating my bottom line.

I thought the subject worthy of its own thread, so here goes, with some mild editing from what I had posted in that other thread ...

++ Get into the NCAA tournament this season, advance to the Sweet 16 or beyond, and come back with that fine recruiting class (one that has a realistic chance to get even better), and I will upgrade to full-on Projo.

++ Get into the tourney and win one NCAA game, and I will remain "leaning Projo," which is where I think I have been for awhile now (though I did waver in the wake of Hausershima because I was worried about how it would affect recruiting).

++ Get into the tourney but again fail to advance - or fail to reach the tourney entirely - and I'll be in Wojo's Gotta ShoMo mode (or "leaning Nojo," for folks who prefer that term). For the first time, he will officially be "on the clock" for me.

++ Fail to reach the tourney this season and 2020-21, regardless of the inevitable "too young" excuse for next season, and I'll join those shouting for him to go. (Caveat: If there is some ridiculous injury wave that would prevent any coach from winning, I could cut him some slack. Unlikely to happen.)

Yes, it takes some good fortune to win in March. But to NEVER win in March ... that suggests something more than simply bad luck. Each of his four predecessors, guys of varying degrees of coaching/recruiting ability, managed to do it.

I cannot name a single guy I'd consider a "good" coach, current or past, who has failed to win a single NCAA tournament game in his first half-dozen years running a major program.

It's time for Wojo to deliver.
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muhoopsfan6@yahoo.com

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2020, 01:12:48 PM »
I approve this message and it reflects my thoughts and opinions very well.  My Dad, being just a little more nojo than myself, and I had this conversation over the weekend.

CountryRoads

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2020, 01:20:22 PM »
If MU makes the S16, I feel Wojo would be one of the hotter names on the carrousel this year. It’d be a lot more than MU fans who would be full on Projo at that point.

Winning one game in the tournament is actually pretty irrelevant without considering our seed, in my opinion. Can anyone name the 32 teams who made it last year? Basically, I’d feel much differently winning a 4-13 game than an 8-9. Brings me to my last point.

I just want the team to have a successful season 4/5 years and be comfortably in the tournament with a top 6 or so seed in 3 of those years. Earning a good seed is much more important to me than winning a game in the tournament. Tournament wins will come with having good years and earning high seeds.

wadesworld

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2020, 01:29:35 PM »
Here's the thing that keeps coming up when people say what Wojo "needs" to do.  He "needs" to compete in the Big East, (somewhat goes hand in hand) "needs" to be comfortably in the field/be a top 6ish seed most years, and "needs" to win Tourney games.  The only part of that left for Wojo to do, which is what Tower was talking about, was win Tournament games.

Yes, I'm going to "cherrypick" stats here.  Sure, it would've been nice to move the timeline up by 2 years with some JUCO additions, etc. but that's not how Wojo appears to operate.  If Marquette does wind up in the Tournament this year (which it's trending towards), that's 3 Tournament appearances in the last 4 seasons.  He will have been a 5 seed, a 7 seed, and who knows what this year will bring but probably a 6-8 seed.  He also finished 3rd in the Big East 3 years ago, 2nd in the Big East last year, and is currently one game back of 2nd in the Big East right now.  In my opinion, top 3 in the Big East is "competing" in the Big East.

In my opinion what Wojo needs is to keep his roster together better.  Having more guys like Sacar who stick it out and wind up being productive players as upper classmen is the difference between a 6-8 seed and possible 1 and done in the Tournament and being a 3-6 seed and having much easier matchups, plus players who have "been there" and won't get rattled when the lights come on in Tourney time.

Obviously losing guys like the Hausers set the program back.  But I don't expect that to be a common theme going forward.  What I think Wojo has struggled to do is keep guys like Sandy, Traci, etc. around who might not be the stars of the program, but could be the Sacars of the program.

Wojo's really not that far off, and he's got a top 10 recruiting class with a good chance to add a star piece on top of it.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2020, 01:31:12 PM by manesworld »
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tower912

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2020, 01:34:01 PM »
I said when he was hired that only knowing the Duke way was a concern and that his success was contingent upon growing beyond his Duke roots.

I have said multiple times that he reminds me of Crean without Wade.   Paint by numbers

I have not yet seen him make a team more than the sum of its parts.

He has continued to attract talent.

He has developed 3 stars.

I think he can coach.   I think he is getting better.  I don't think he is great.  I think he is nowhere near his coaching ceiling. 

I think he will win 20 games a year as long as he is at Marquette.

I think he is more likely to leave than get fired.

I think he will take teams deep in the tournament.   I don't know of it will be at Marquette.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2020, 03:16:24 PM by tower912 »
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bilsu

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2020, 01:36:03 PM »
I find the whole topic confounding.
There is too much criticism in a year where a 14-6 record is actually very good considering there are several very good teams doing worse.
Looking at our losses using the current bracketology we have lost to:
a 2 seed on the road
a 4 seed on the road
a 4 seed on a neutral site
a 6 seed on the road
a 6 seed on the road
That is five losses that, while no one should be happy with, it should not result in people calling for Wojo's head.
The other loss was to Providence in overtime, which is the only loss to a team not currently projected to be in the NCAA tournament. However, Providence is not a bad team by any stretch.

We all want MU to be more successful than it has, but at this time we are not a disaster that should lead to a coach being fired.

Shooter McGavin

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #6 on: January 28, 2020, 01:53:13 PM »
Yep.

The Sultan of Semantics

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #7 on: January 28, 2020, 02:00:26 PM »
I find the whole topic confounding.
There is too much criticism in a year where a 14-6 record is actually very good considering there are several very good teams doing worse.
Looking at our losses using the current bracketology we have lost to:
a 2 seed on the road
a 4 seed on the road
a 4 seed on a neutral site
a 6 seed on the road
a 6 seed on the road
That is five losses that, while no one should be happy with, it should not result in people calling for Wojo's head.
The other loss was to Providence in overtime, which is the only loss to a team not currently projected to be in the NCAA tournament. However, Providence is not a bad team by any stretch.

We all want MU to be more successful than it has, but at this time we are not a disaster that should lead to a coach being fired.


No the coach isn't going to be fired.  Zero doubt about that. 

But the way some of these losses went down is worrisome. 
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WhoaJoe2020

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2020, 02:02:27 PM »

Some things would really have to go right for MU to make the sweet 16 this year. Things like Greg coming back 100% and Symir finally "getting it" on defense, as well as Markus making it to the post season unscathed, which, barring Greg and Symir suddenly contributing more, isn't very likely.

The most likely scenario is a repeat of last year, considering Marquette will probably be a much lower seed than last year.

That leaves me right where I've been all along, hoping MU lands Mane and that this recruiting class is as good as advertised. If both of those things pan out, Marquette should make some noise in the conference and in the tournament next year, and Wojo will be safe.

If he fails with the incoming talent next year, including Mane, ( barring a wave of injuries ), a search for a replacement should begin in earnest.

Markus leaving next year should not be an excuse. There are more consistent ways to win than what Marquette has been doing the last two years.

Coming from Duke Wojo should already know how to handle the roster next year. With Markus gone I don't anticipate another Hauser situation, so Wojo should have no excuse for not getting the new players to work together from the start. Youth should not be an excuse either.

For Wojo "next year" is more than just a tired refrain. It will very likely determine his future.

Elonsmusk

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2020, 02:21:00 PM »
Some things would really have to go right for MU to make the sweet 16 this year. Things like Greg coming back 100% and Symir finally "getting it" on defense, as well as Markus making it to the post season unscathed, which, barring Greg and Symir suddenly contributing more, isn't very likely.

The most likely scenario is a repeat of last year, considering Marquette will probably be a much lower seed than last year.

That leaves me right where I've been all along, hoping MU lands Mane and that this recruiting class is as good as advertised. If both of those things pan out, Marquette should make some noise in the conference and in the tournament next year, and Wojo will be safe.

If he fails with the incoming talent next year, including Mane, ( barring a wave of injuries ), a search for a replacement should begin in earnest.

Markus leaving next year should not be an excuse. There are more consistent ways to win than what Marquette has been doing the last two years.

Coming from Duke Wojo should already know how to handle the roster next year. With Markus gone I don't anticipate another Hauser situation, so Wojo should have no excuse for not getting the new players to work together from the start. Youth should not be an excuse either.

For Wojo "next year" is more than just a tired refrain. It will very likely determine his future.

Greg Elliott and Symir are NOT the difference between winning and losing NCAA tournament games.  Let's not start this narrative to potentially rationalize an early exit.

Markus Howard will be a 1st team All-American, with a starting roster around him of 22 year olds.  We are old, experienced, and have a coach in his 6th year.  No reason to expect an early exit.  Now, had the Hausers stuck around, we probably would be a 2 or 3 seed and have a higher probability of making the Sweet 16.  But..NCAA is down this year, and we have Markus.

As for the 2nd bolded paragraph.  Wash.  Rinse.  Repeat.  This has been said for each of the past 5 seasons.


BM1090

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2020, 02:31:41 PM »
Greg Elliott and Symir are NOT the difference between winning and losing NCAA tournament games.  Let's not start this narrative to potentially rationalize an early exit.

Markus Howard will be a 1st team All-American, with a starting roster around him of 22 year olds.  We are old, experienced, and have a coach in his 6th year.  No reason to expect an early exit.  Now, had the Hausers stuck around, we probably would be a 2 or 3 seed and have a higher probability of making the Sweet 16.  But..NCAA is down this year, and we have Markus.

As for the 2nd bolded paragraph.  Wash.  Rinse.  Repeat.  This has been said for each of the past 5 seasons.

They could definitely be the difference in winning a tournament game if they combine for 25 minutes and 10 points vs. 4 minutes and 0 points. But largely I agree. If we win a tournament game or two it will be because of Markus, Sacar and Brendan.

Disagree on the last paragraph. MU's recruiting classes the past few years are nowhere near the class we're bringing in next year.

hairy worthen

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2020, 02:31:48 PM »
Some things would really have to go right for MU to make the sweet 16 this year. Things like Greg coming back 100% and Symir finally "getting it" on defense, as well as Markus making it to the post season unscathed, which, barring Greg and Symir suddenly contributing more, isn't very likely.

The most likely scenario is a repeat of last year, considering Marquette will probably be a much lower seed than last year.

Ahhh, the old lowering expectations trick. A Chicos oldie,  but a goodie.

WhoaJoe2020

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2020, 02:46:54 PM »
Greg Elliott and Symir are NOT the difference between winning and losing NCAA tournament games.  Let's not start this narrative to potentially rationalize an early exit.

Markus Howard will be a 1st team All-American, with a starting roster around him of 22 year olds.  We are old, experienced, and have a coach in his 6th year.  No reason to expect an early exit.  Now, had the Hausers stuck around, we probably would be a 2 or 3 seed and have a higher probability of making the Sweet 16.  But..NCAA is down this year, and we have Markus.

As for the 2nd bolded paragraph.  Wash.  Rinse.  Repeat.  This has been said for each of the past 5 seasons.

I love how you read what people post and seem to purposefully miss the point every time.

Marquette was short on competent guards last season and Markus got worn down. Marquette is short on competent guards this season and I believe the results will be the same. I never suggested that Greg or Symir would carry the team, only that they would give Markus(and Koby) a breather here and there.

As for your second comment, it is so off point that I'm questioning if you even read the words you are responding to, or if you just reflexively type your pre-prepared talking points that fit your agenda.

RJax55

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2020, 02:51:32 PM »
I love how you read what people post and seem to purposefully miss the point every time.

Marquette was short on competent guards last season and Markus got worn down. Marquette is short on competent guards this season and I believe the results will be the same. I never suggested that Greg or Symir would carry the team, only that they would give Markus(and Koby) a breather here and there.

I'll play along... Who's responsibility is it to ensure adequate depth at the guard position?

Mr. Nielsen

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2020, 03:00:19 PM »
If we are all thinking alike, we're not thinking at all. It's OK to disagree. Just don't be disagreeable.
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WhoaJoe2020

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2020, 03:02:44 PM »
Ahhh, the old lowering expectations trick. A Chicos oldie,  but a goodie.

How clueless can you be??

If I was a big Wojo supporter who believed he was the greatest coach ever, wouldn't I be trying to rationalize how Marquette makes the sweet sixteen instead of how it's more likely that they don't?? How is my prediction that Marquette loses in the first round an endorsement of Wojo?? Your comment about lowering expectations is just an attempt to distract from the point I was making. Nice try.

Sometimes people are just making predictions based on current observations and historical precedents. Just because your thoughts and opinions are colored by your obvious biases, doesn't mean everybody's mind works that way.


WhoaJoe2020

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2020, 03:14:24 PM »
I'll play along... Who's responsibility is it to ensure adequate depth at the guard position?

Finally an intelligent question.

It was partially Wojos fault and I criticized him in other posts for the Chartouny whiff. Although in fairness to Wojo, he wasn't allowed to pay some of the guards he had targeted before settling on Chartouny.

Greg being injury prone is nobody's fault.

Symir is just young but I have hopes that he will emerge before the end of this season.

Fair question though.

As I noted in another thread, next year guard depth  should not be an issue.

MU82

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2020, 03:16:32 PM »
I find the whole topic confounding.
There is too much criticism in a year where a 14-6 record is actually very good considering there are several very good teams doing worse.
Looking at our losses using the current bracketology we have lost to:
a 2 seed on the road
a 4 seed on the road
a 4 seed on a neutral site
a 6 seed on the road
a 6 seed on the road
That is five losses that, while no one should be happy with, it should not result in people calling for Wojo's head.
The other loss was to Providence in overtime, which is the only loss to a team not currently projected to be in the NCAA tournament. However, Providence is not a bad team by any stretch.

We all want MU to be more successful than it has, but at this time we are not a disaster that should lead to a coach being fired.

Not sure what about my OP is "confounding."

And "disaster" and "fired" are your words.

I'd like to see Wojo steer his program to the next level, that's all.

And the only implied "or else" is that I'll be unhappy if it doesn't happen.

We Are Marquette!
“It’s not how white men fight.” - Tucker Carlson

hairy worthen

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2020, 03:27:59 PM »
How clueless can you be??

If I was a big Wojo supporter who believed he was the greatest coach ever, wouldn't I be trying to rationalize how Marquette makes the sweet sixteen instead of how it's more likely that they don't?? How is my prediction that Marquette loses in the first round an endorsement of Wojo?? Your comment about lowering expectations is just an attempt to distract from the point I was making. Nice try.

Sometimes people are just making predictions based on current observations and historical precedents. Just because your thoughts and opinions are colored by your obvious biases, doesn't mean everybody's mind works that way.
Well it's not that hard to figure out. Sounds like you are pissed that I called u out on it. You are lowering expectations by making excuses so if it happens you can say, not wojo fault. If he succeeds you can say what a great job he did.

WhoaJoe2020

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2020, 03:34:21 PM »
Well it's not that hard to figure out. Sounds like you are pissed that I called u out on it. You are lowering expectations by making excuses so if it happens you can say, not wojo fault. If he succeeds you can say what a great job he did.

Maybe in your twisted mind, and using your twisted logic that makes sense.

Consider how similar your comments are to a conspiracy theorists.


Cheeks

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2020, 03:34:47 PM »
Competitive team.  Upper half of Big East, competing with best teams (Nova, Etc).  Check
Post Season appearances.  Check
Solid to excellent recruiting.  Check
Clean program, no issues.  Check
Players graduating.  Check

"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

NorthernDancerColt

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2020, 04:15:48 PM »
I said when he was hired that only knowing the Duke way was a concern and that his success was contingent upon growing beyond his Duke roots.

I have said multiple times that he reminds me of Crean without Wade.   Paint by numbers

I have not yet seen him make a team more than the sum of its parts.

He has continued to attract talent.

He has developed 3 stars.

I think he can coach.   I think he is getting better.  I don't think he is great.  I think he is nowhere near his coaching ceiling. 

I think he will win 20 games a year as long as he is at Marquette.

I think he is more likely to leave than get fired.

I think he will take teams deep in the tournament.   I don't know of it will be at Marquette.

I normally agree with your rational, eloquent posts. Here I’m a bit confused. You have yet to see him make a team more than the sum of their parts, but you believe he is not near his ceiling, and he will take teams deep in the NCAAs. And you don’t know if it will be at MU. So, with an incoming Top5 or Top10 (sans Mane) class, do you feel high level success is imminent? Where else but DUKE would Wojo pull in a top5 recruiting haul and suddenly start creating that team alchemy necessary to become a “great” coach?
Zenyatta has a lot....a lot... of ground to make up. She gets there from here she’d be a super horse......what’s this.....Zenyatta hooked to the grandstand side....Zenyatta flying on the outside....this....is...un-belieeeeeevable!...looked impossible at the top of the stretch...

WhoaJoe2020

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2020, 04:26:30 PM »
I normally agree with your rational, eloquent posts. Here I’m a bit confused. You have yet to see him make a team more than the sum of their parts, but you believe he is not near his ceiling, and he will take teams deep in the NCAAs. And you don’t know if it will be at MU. So, with an incoming Top5 or Top10 (sans Mane) class, do you feel high level success is imminent? Where else but DUKE would Wojo pull in a top5 recruiting haul and suddenly start creating that team alchemy necessary to become a “great” coach?

I actually agree with everything tower wrote. He has room to grow as a coach and is just hitting his prime. Hopefully he has learned from his successes and failures and is ready to apply that knowledge to the rest of this season and into the next. I think this is what they call his window of opportunity to show what he's capable of.

I'm cautiously optimistic.

NorthernDancerColt

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2020, 04:33:03 PM »
Not sure what about my OP is "confounding."

And "disaster" and "fired" are your words.

I'd like to see Wojo steer his program to the next level, that's all.

And the only implied "or else" is that I'll be unhappy if it doesn't happen.

We Are Marquette!

It can’t be stated enough:
Wojo had his team on the precipice of “NEXT LEVEL” stuff, until a whining baby fomented discord and jealousy. It cost Marquette an outright BigEast championship.
Sadly, it cost us Sam and a shot at glory this year.

It is becoming SOP in college basketball, with every entitled kid thinking they are the next great thing and a lock for the NBA.
Zenyatta has a lot....a lot... of ground to make up. She gets there from here she’d be a super horse......what’s this.....Zenyatta hooked to the grandstand side....Zenyatta flying on the outside....this....is...un-belieeeeeevable!...looked impossible at the top of the stretch...

willie warrior

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Re: Bottom Line On Wojo
« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2020, 04:38:33 PM »
Competitive team.  Upper half of Big East, competing with best teams (Nova, Etc).  Check
Post Season appearances.  Check
Solid to excellent recruiting.  Check
Clean program, no issues.  Check
Players graduating.  Check
Mediocre program. Check
I thought you were dead. Willie lives rent free in Reekers mind.

 

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