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Author Topic: The Verdict Is In  (Read 8889 times)

ATL MU Warrior

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #50 on: January 27, 2020, 12:05:30 PM »
rocky

Would an Arby's coupon reference make you happy?

ATL MU Warrior

Why leave? Maybe a million dollar a year raise and the advancement in his chosen career.
No kidding.  You seemed to be implying that the reason he didn't leave for 15 years was that he wasn't any good.

WhoaJoe2020

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #51 on: January 27, 2020, 12:07:03 PM »
rocky

Would an Arby's coupon reference make you happy?

ATL MU Warrior

Why leave? Maybe a million dollar a year raise and the advancement in his chosen career.

Maybe he was just waiting for the right offer......

From what I hear, Marquette is a pretty sweet gig.


Goose

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #52 on: January 27, 2020, 12:08:32 PM »
manesworld

Just curious, what was Wojo's salary at Duke the last couple of years?

willie warrior

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #53 on: January 27, 2020, 01:12:57 PM »
Amazing what the spin meisters and Wojo excuse makers come up with. The fact that Butler was ubstoppable near the end further pins the loss directly on Wojo. What defensive adjustments did Wojo make? All the players are his. Markus flubbing and missing shots are Wojos responsibility. "He has the ultimate green light" Wojo is a terrible bench coach. He needs more assistants to help him.

hairy worthen

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #54 on: January 27, 2020, 01:31:03 PM »
Amazing what the spin meisters and Wojo excuse makers come up with. The fact that Butler was ubstoppable near the end further pins the loss directly on Wojo. What defensive adjustments did Wojo make? All the players are his. Markus flubbing and missing shots are Wojos responsibility. "He has the ultimate green light" Wojo is a terrible bench coach. He needs more assistants to help him.
Exactly right on the defensive adjustment Willie. Try anything different to break his groove, Wojo's solution was to concede that he was going to score so work around that.

Like I said the team did play well, but there were definitely mistakes that were made

TAMU Garcia

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #55 on: January 27, 2020, 01:49:11 PM »
The defense doesn't bother me much. Baldwin was settling for long 2s, the most inefficient shot in basketball. Most times a player will regress to the mean and start missing, Baldwin didn't.

What bothered me more was Markus deciding that the last two minutes was a 1 on 1 match with Baldwin. He's done it before and the coaches need to anticipate his tendencies and coach him out of it.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

NorthernDancerColt

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #56 on: January 27, 2020, 01:52:51 PM »
Sir Bernstein,

Is that meat gravy on your shirt?

There's a reason Wojo was welded to the Duke bench for almost two decades. Unfortunately, Marquette is learning why that was.

The fundamental difference between a KO, Crean or Buzz and Wojo is that the former three are sublimely intelligent. Wojo sits decidedly lower on the Stanford-Binet scale.

The shell shocked look on his face towards the end of games is telling.

And the A-10 Gatling gun went “BBBRRRRRRRRRRT”

Or did it go “Bert” ?


Talked to an F16 pilot the other day, and when I told him how the A10 is the most awesome plane in the history of our military, he said “yeah but it’s soooo slow it has a bird strike problem...in the tail.” I’m like “whatever. For close-support operations and sheer value to ground troops, it blows your fancy Mach-whatever away.”

To use an analogy, I would say Wojo is A10 (a meat and potatoes Coach) to others’ F16 drizzle. The dude is a smart guy who made a mistake. Let it be.
Zenyatta has a lot....a lot... of ground to make up. She gets there from here she’d be a super horse......what’s this.....Zenyatta hooked to the grandstand side....Zenyatta flying on the outside....this....is...un-belieeeeeevable!...looked impossible at the top of the stretch...

MU82

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #57 on: January 27, 2020, 02:02:15 PM »
82

Guys are not assistants for 15 years and become HC. You always not this is not the '70's anymore, same holds true to your comparisons. Coaches are younger and younger. He was welded to the bench for a reason.

Goose:

That's ridiculous. With all due respect.
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Marcus92

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #58 on: January 27, 2020, 02:58:45 PM »
Goose:

That's ridiculous. With all due respect.

For the record, 18 of the head coaches at schools currently ranked in the KenPom Top 25 spent at least 10 seasons as a college or NBA assistant before getting their first Division I college head coaching job. This doesn't include any time spent coaching at the high school or community college level.

10 years
Jay Wright, Matt Painter, Chris Mack, Scott Drew, Kevin Willard, Chris Holtmann, Pat Chambers

11 years
Mark Few, Sean Miller, Fran McCaffery, Mark Turgeon

12 years
Tad Boyle

13 years
Anthony Grant, Brian Dutcher, LaVall Jordan

15 years
Leonard Hamilton

16 years
Tom Izzo

17 years
Brad Underwood

The Top 25 head coaches with less than 10 years of experience as a college assistant are Mike Krzyzewski (1 year), Kelvin Sampson (2 years), Bob Huggins (3 years), Dana Altman (5 years), Mark Pope (6 years), John Calipari (6 years) and Bill Self (8 years).

Questioning Wojo's resume is one of the weakest possible criticisms you could make, IMO.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 03:00:31 PM by Marcus92 »
"Let's get a green drink!" Famous last words

Elonsmusk

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #59 on: January 27, 2020, 03:06:24 PM »
I specifically said that Wojo not knowing what the score was and ordering a dumb play be made by one of his players was NOT (ultimately anyway) the reason we lost. His deer in the headlights inability to notice/adjust to the fact that Butler was doing the same thing successfully time after time after time down the stretch and his acquiescence to Markus playing hero ball was. But not effectively adjusting in game and having a free reign star system have been hallmarks of the Wojo era from day one. And it hasn’t stopped his supporters from comparing him to Jay Wright, K and other coaching legends. But when a guy doesn’t even know what the score is at crunch time that is, to me at least, incompetence at a whole other level. And when it’s added to lack of adjustments, star system, inability to control the locker room, etc., etc., it pushed me over the ledge. I hope he can recruit well enough to overcome his sideline inadequacies, but if I’m up against him on the trail my message would be simple - “Do you want to entrust your NBA dream to a guy who doesn’t even know the score”?

This entire post is fair and truthful.  Some may not like the content, as it is an indictment of our coach, yet there does need to be an acceptance of this objective criticism.

Mistakes such as forgetting the score at crunch time would be more easily forgiven, IF the bolded weren't also part of the equation and lack of March success.

Herman Cain called it awhile back when he hypothesized that Wojo would likely perform just well enough to keep his job, but not exceptionally enough to have other top programs want to hire him on as head coach.

It's all right in front of Wojo.  If he can get this team to finish out strong, have a good showing in Big East tournamant (reach semi-finals), and get just 1 win in NCAA - think the criticism would subside quite a bit.  Should he fail, and the team finish poorly down the stretch, the heat on the seat is definitely going to get turned up by a majority of the fanbase.
No doubt there are cultural differences, but sports is important for many Asians.

Goose

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #60 on: January 27, 2020, 03:08:48 PM »
Marcus

I never questioned Wojo's resume. That has never been mentioned by me. FYI--Most of the guys you noted remember the Al era, any young guys? How long was KO, Crean or Buzz an assistant and what age did they get hired for first HC job?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2020, 03:17:14 PM by Goose »

jesmu84

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #61 on: January 27, 2020, 03:18:32 PM »
Marcus

I never questioned Wojo's resume. That has never been mentioned by me. FYI--Most of the guys you noted remember the Al era, any young guys? How long was KO, Crean or Buzz an assistant and what age did they get hired for first HC job?

You didn't?

At the least, you implied his resume was an indication that he was not HC material.

Marcus92

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #62 on: January 27, 2020, 03:30:04 PM »
I limited this review to head coaches at schools currently in the KenPom Top 25 -- which happens to include a lot of long-term head coaches. Thought that was fair; if the goal is for Marquette to reach Top 25 status again, compare Wojo to head coaches at that level.

Kevin O'Neill was a college assistant for 6 seasons -- plus another 4 years at the high school, community college and Division II level -- before becoming head coach of the Marquette men's basketball program at the age of 32.

Tom Crean was a college assistant for 12 years before becoming MU's head coach at the age of 33.

Buzz Williams was a college assistant for 12 years before becoming the head coach at New Orleans. He was 34 at the time.

Steve Wojciechowski was a college assistant for 15 years before becoming MU's head coach at the age of 38.

Not much of a difference, if you ask me.
"Let's get a green drink!" Famous last words

Marcus92

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #63 on: January 27, 2020, 03:31:17 PM »
At this point, I'd say Wojo's resume is pretty much irrelevant anyway. He's got 5 seasons as a head coach under his belt and should be able to stand on his record.
"Let's get a green drink!" Famous last words

lawdog77

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #64 on: January 27, 2020, 03:34:07 PM »
The defense doesn't bother me much. Baldwin was settling for long 2s, the most inefficient shot in basketball. Most times a player will regress to the mean and start missing, Baldwin didn't.

What bothered me more was Markus deciding that the last two minutes was a 1 on 1 match with Baldwin. He's done it before and the coaches need to anticipate his tendencies and coach him out of it.
my argument would be is that shot is Kamar's shot. He did regress to the mean by making all of those. He ended up 10 for 25. Change the defense. Either get the ball out of his hands, or doible off the screen, or zone. Like I said before, I hope it is a teaching moment. Same with markus.  We dont k ow what wojo said to him after or in film session. Hopefully we see improvement by both.

WhoaJoe2020

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #65 on: January 27, 2020, 03:46:29 PM »
my argument would be is that shot is Kamar's shot. He did regress to the mean by making all of those. He ended up 10 for 25. Change the defense. Either get the ball out of his hands, or doible off the screen, or zone. Like I said before, I hope it is a teaching moment. Same with markus.  We dont k ow what wojo said to him after or in film session. Hopefully we see improvement by both.

I doubt Wojo will.

I think Kamar was taking the shots Wojos wanted him to. He just kept making them, and Markus wasn't answering with a 3.

Just like some coaches are okay with letting Markus try to beat them from deep. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

There were a million ways Butler coulda, shoulda lost that game. They found the one way to win.

Endgame.

Eldon

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #66 on: January 27, 2020, 03:51:36 PM »
The defense doesn't bother me much. Baldwin was settling for long 2s, the most inefficient shot in basketball. Most times a player will regress to the mean and start missing, Baldwin didn't.

What bothered me more was Markus deciding that the last two minutes was a 1 on 1 match with Baldwin. He's done it before and the coaches need to anticipate his tendencies and coach him out of it.

Second paragraph is spot on.

There's a difference between 'green light' and "emerald city," as Lavin said after the game.

Ellenson Family Reunion

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #67 on: January 27, 2020, 04:34:17 PM »
I doubt Wojo will.

I think Kamar was taking the shots Wojos wanted him to. He just kept making them, and Markus wasn't answering with a 3.

Just like some coaches are okay with letting Markus try to beat them from deep. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

There were a million ways Butler coulda, shoulda lost that game. They found the one way to win.

Endgame.

Morons?

WhoaJoe2020

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #68 on: January 27, 2020, 05:10:40 PM »
Morons?

Nope, just coaches playing the percentages.

Although I agree, with as many times as Markus has torched opposing teams there must be a lot of moron coaches out there by some peoples logic.

Or maybe sometimes good defense gets trumped by better offense.

Cheeks

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #69 on: January 27, 2020, 06:53:38 PM »
82

Guys are not assistants for 15 years and become HC. You always not this is not the '70's anymore, same holds true to your comparisons. Coaches are younger and younger. He was welded to the bench for a reason.

This is wholly inaccurate.  Mike Hopkins was an assistant at Syracuse for 20 years, he is now at Washington as of 2017.  Just one example.



"I hate everything about this job except the games, Everything. I don't even get affected anymore by the winning, by the ratings, those things. The trouble is, it will sound like an excuse because we've never won the national championship, but winning just isn't all that important to me.” Al McGuire

Goose

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #70 on: January 27, 2020, 06:58:26 PM »
Cheeks

Of course it happens, just less and less often.

WarriorFan

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #71 on: January 27, 2020, 07:11:49 PM »
The time and score thing is an admitted mistake.  Horrible, but at least admitted.

Not changing the defense on Baldwin was a far greater mistake that doesn't even seem to be understood or even acknowledged.

Every good player has his move to his spot for his shot, and in that spot with that shot, they will make a very high percentage.  We gave a very good player his favorite move to his favorite spot about 15 times... in a row.  Reminds me of the definition of insanity.

keefe

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #72 on: January 27, 2020, 09:35:13 PM »
And the A-10 Gatling gun went “BBBRRRRRRRRRRT”

Or did it go “Bert” ?


Talked to an F16 pilot the other day, and when I told him how the A10 is the most awesome plane in the history of our military, he said “yeah but it’s soooo slow it has a bird strike problem...in the tail.” I’m like “whatever. For close-support operations and sheer value to ground troops, it blows your fancy Mach-whatever away.”

To use an analogy, I would say Wojo is A10 (a meat and potatoes Coach) to others’ F16 drizzle. The dude is a smart guy who made a mistake. Let it be.

I had the privilege to fly both airframes. And any comparison is Ginger vs Mary Ann.

I flew the CJ variant of the 16 which is the Wild Weasel mission of Suppression of Enemy Air Defenses (SEAD.) In The Storm, Wild Weasels were first in over Iraq, clearing the way for the main strike package. Weasels eliminated Iraq's air defense system within the first hour of combat operations.

In terms of CAS, the finest purpose-built airframe is the Hog. Like its namesake, the P 47 Jug, the Hog is brutally effective at applying overwhelming fire power with precision to support ground forces in contact.

Comparing Wojo to The Warthog is a stretch: The A 10 is the very best in the history of air power at what it does. Wojo has not come anywhere near that level of acclaim, notoriety, and success.

As Marines and Army troops in contact radio: "Go Ugly Early!"   


Death on call

MU82

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #73 on: January 27, 2020, 11:31:32 PM »
Goose:

You and I agree on a lot of stuff and we have a good relationship. You're wrong on this one but it appears you're just a little too stubborn and dug-in to admit it. That's cool. It happens to all of us sometimes.

As I said earlier, there are many, many, MANY reasons to criticize Wojo, and I have used some of them myself. Criticizing him for using his time as an assistant coach, learning under the winningest coach in history and waiting for what he felt was his "right" opportunity ... that's just silly. It smacks of looking for something - anything! - to nitpick about.
"You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy than Scoop game threads."

-- Obi-wan Kenobi

keefe

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Re: The Verdict Is In
« Reply #74 on: January 28, 2020, 12:21:13 AM »
Goose:

You and I agree on a lot of stuff and we have a good relationship. You're wrong on this one but it appears you're just a little too stubborn and dug-in to admit it. That's cool. It happens to all of us sometimes.

As I said earlier, there are many, many, MANY reasons to criticize Wojo, and I have used some of them myself. Criticizing him for using his time as an assistant coach, learning under the winningest coach in history and waiting for what he felt was his "right" opportunity ... that's just silly. It smacks of looking for something - anything! - to nitpick about.

Mike

SI ran an article in the immediate aftermath of Wojo's hiring. The key point is that K's other assistants had decidedly mixed results as head coaches but that Wojo was set up for success at MU.

Do you feel Wojo delivered on that promise?



https://www.si.com/college-basketball/one-and-one/2014/04/01/steve-wojciechowski-duke-coach-k-marquette-head-coach


Death on call

 

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