Meanwhile....MU moves up to 28th in Ken Pom

[Cheeks]

As of 10:15pm CT we are up to 28th.

[Johnny B]

You seem smart sometimes and idiotic other times. Cant get a good read on you. This isn't relevant to anything but there you go.

[Cheeks]

You seem smart sometimes and idiotic other times. Cant get a good read on you. This isn't relevant to anything but there you go.

A Marquette basketball message forum and I post how we moved up (32nd yesterday) to 28th...the Marquette basketball team....on a Marquette basketball message forum....it isn’t relevant? 

I can’t get a good read on whether you are joking or not.

Sincerely the Smart Idiot

[Johnny B]

A Marquette basketball message forum and I post how we moved up (32nd yesterday) to 28th...the Marquette basketball team....on a Marquette basketball message forum....it isn’t relevant? 

I can’t get a good read on whether you are joking or not.

Sincerely the Smart Idiot

I meant my comment is irrelevant. Sorry lol carry on

[WhoaJoe2020]

As of 10:15pm CT we are up to 28th.

Another poster made a good point about these rankings being transitory.

The only relevant ranking is where Marquette is ranked at tournament time.

The rest just feeds circular arguments.

[GooooMarquette]

Another poster made a good point about these rankings being transitory.

The only relevant ranking is where Marquette is ranked at tournament time.

The rest just feeds circular arguments.

True...but at the moment, this is the best we have. And 28th means we are right in the mix.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

And we are .04 points out of 26th.

I always find it interesting to look at the KenPom score rather than the ranking. Like most ranking systems, teams tend to fall on a nice bell curve. Someone can do the actual math to find deviations, but I like looking for natural breaks in the rankings to sort teams into tiers. Here are the tiers I currently see.

6 elite teams:
Kansas +30.18
Duke 2 +28.63
Gonzaga +26.07
Baylor +25.86
Dayton +25.50
West Virginia +25.36

11 very good teams:
San Diego State +23.56
Louisville +22.74
Maryland +22.58
Seton Hall +22.32
Michigan State +22.25
Arizona +21.62
Ohio State +21.24
Iowa +21.06
Butler +20.06
Florida State +19.52
Oregon +19.32

23 at large worthy teams
Villanova +18.64
Colorado +18.51
Purdue +18.40
Penn St. +18.40
Illinois +18.36
BYU +18.31
Houston +18.02
Kentucky +17.86
Texas Tech +17.44
Rutgers +17.44
Marquette +17.40
Arkansas +17.34
Minnesota +17.26
Michigan +17.23
Stanford +17.22
Auburn +17.20
Wisconsin +17.19
Creighton +17.03
LSU +16.85
St. Mary's +16.77
Florida +16.62
Indiana +16.12
Wichita State +15.84

Bubble Teams:
Mississippi State +15.17....

We're right in the middle of that third tier. After the Providence debacle, we fell all the way to 41. In 4 games we have risen to 26th. I think we can play our way to the top of our current tier or even into the second tier pretty easily. We could also play ourselves out of the tournament. I feel decently confident about our play going forward.

[willie warrior]

As of 10:15pm CT we are up to 28th.

That is a good thing. But considering this is generally a down year for college bb, it does not yet warrant making travel plans to see MU in the final 4
Wojo needs at least 5 to 10 more years.

[tower912]

Losing to a top 15 team on their floor is to be expected.   The way it happened is the painful part.

[hairy worthen]

Losing to a top 15 team on their floor is to be expected.   The way it happened is the painful concerning part.

Correct, In a vacuum  thats not a bad loss at all. But I would change the word painful to concerning.

[real chili 83]

Is Dayton really “that” good?

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Is Dayton really “that” good?

Probably not THAT good, but I think Anthony Grant is a good coach who took a bad job in Alabama.

[🏀]

Is Dayton really “that” good?

I caught their Colorado and VCU games. They’ll be an interesting tournament team to the extremes. Could get bounced in first round or a be an easy Elite 8 team.

[MikeDeanesDarkGlasses]

When a team has their 2x starting guards out with injuries, the team isn't a top 15 team anymore. 

MU's ranking is severely inflated and that's part of the problem with Kenpom, especially during a time of parity.  It doesn't adjust for injuries as well as many other things.

[🏀]

When a team has their 2x starting guards out with injuries, the team isn't a top 15 team anymore. 

MU's ranking is severely inflated and that's part of the problem with Kenpom, especially during a time of parity.  It doesn't adjust for injuries as well as many other things.

That’s not a problem. It doesn’t accurately fit your agenda, that is your problem.

[MikeDeanesDarkGlasses]

That’s not a problem. It doesn’t accurately fit your agenda, that is your problem.

Pointing out flawed data?  That's an agenda? 

[🏀]

Pointing out flawed data?  That's an agenda? 

It’s not flawed data.

[brewcity77]

6 elite teams:
Kansas +30.18
Duke 2 +28.63
Gonzaga +26.07
Baylor +25.86
Dayton +25.50
West Virginia +25.36

And that #1 Kansas would've been 6th last year.

[Silkk the Shaka]

You seem smart sometimes and idiotic other times. Cant get a good read on you. This isn't relevant to anything but there you go.

I'll save you some time trying to figure it out. He argues in bad faith 100% of the time at extremely high volume, and a broken clock is right twice a day.

[Goose]

Cheeks is sky like a fix. He pulls an inside job every job time he causes controversy. I find his style to be extremely amusing. Sure, I disagree with most of BS, but he adds excitement. I said last week, he should have sponsors on Scoop and get paid for every reply his craziness received on here.

[79Warrior]

Cheeks is sky like a fix. He pulls an inside job every job time he causes controversy. I find his style to be extremely amusing. Sure, I disagree with most of BS, but he adds excitement. I said last week, he should have sponsors on Scoop and get paid for every reply his craziness received on here.

I find his style mostly pathetic.

[MikeDeanesDarkGlasses]

I find his style mostly pathetic.

Glorified Turd Polisher, but hey.....that's Wojo is too.

.....Birds of a feather

.....Image, Image, Image, Image, then results

[MUBBau]

It’s not flawed data.

You know those rating systems are flawed. They don't take in account houses that have, uh, more than two television sets and other - other things of that nature.

[Cheeks]

I find his style mostly pathetic.

Ahhhh....so fun to watch the dinosaurs here think it is still the 70’s....

[Cheeks]

That is a good thing. But considering this is generally a down year for college bb, it does not yet warrant making travel plans to see MU in the final 4
Wojo needs at least 5 to 10 more years.

You truly have no idea how stats and data work with that statement.  Ultimately you are judged vs your peers.  It can be down, but it’s all relative to everyone else being down.  Sorry, but that’s the way it goes and that’s the way the data works.  Whether it is down or not is irrelevant because all of college basketball is still competing against all of the “down” teams in the collective pool that establishes the data set to begin with.

[Cheeks]

Losing to a top 15 team on their floor is to be expected.   The way it happened is the painful part.

Of course.  And people here hang on to the losses forever and the wins for about 10 seconds.   To this day people are still bitching fits about losing to Kansas and pretending as if annihilating#1 Kentucky a week earlier didn’t happen....it’s comical.

[Not A Serious Person]

The chart shows an updated KenPom game-by-game rating for MU this year versus last year.  This year's team is slightly better rated than last year's team at the same point in the season.

Also, KenPom has MU going 7-3 in its final 10 games, to finish 20-10 (10-8)

However, the three losses, the updated KenPom MU win%

Date                 Opp Rank        Opponent       MU win%
Wed Jan 29           58                  Xavier             50%          Away
Wed Feb 12           18                  Villanova        35%          Away
Sat Feb 29            10                  Seton Hall       50%         Home

MU only has one "tough" game (at Nova), the rest are MU win% 50% or higher.

A special season is still very possible.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Also, KenPom has MU going 7-3 in its final 10 games, to finish 20-10 (10-8)

7-3 would get us to 11-7. If you go game by game, KenPom predicts 7-3. But with so many toss ups he actually projects us to go 6-4.

The way I see it is we have three games where we are favored by 3 or more points (DePaul, Creighton, Georgetown) and 1 game we are we are 3 or more point dogs (@Nova). I think it is fair to expect 3-1 in those 4 games. The remaining 6 games are all projected to be two point games. A fair expectation is splitting those 50-50 games for a record of 6-4 in our final games. Winning more or less of those 50-50 games is certainly possible. I'm still hoping for 11-7.

[Elonsmusk]

7-3 would get us to 11-7. If you go game by game, KenPom predicts 7-3. But with so many toss ups he actually projects us to go 6-4.

The way I see it is we have three games where we are favored by 3 or more points (DePaul, Creighton, Georgetown) and 1 game we are we are 3 or more point dogs (@Nova). I think it is fair to expect 3-1 in those 4 games. The remaining 6 games are all projected to be two point games. A fair expectation is splitting those 50-50 games for a record of 6-4 in our final games. Winning more or less of those 50-50 games is certainly possible. I'm still hoping for 11-7.

Almost peculiar to see how closely our trendline this season is following last seasons.

[willie warrior]

And we are .04 points out of 26th.

I always find it interesting to look at the KenPom score rather than the ranking. Like most ranking systems, teams tend to fall on a nice bell curve. Someone can do the actual math to find deviations, but I like looking for natural breaks in the rankings to sort teams into tiers. Here are the tiers I currently see.

6 elite teams:
Kansas +30.18
Duke 2 +28.63
Gonzaga +26.07
Baylor +25.86
Dayton +25.50
West Virginia +25.36

11 very good teams:
San Diego State +23.56
Louisville +22.74
Maryland +22.58
Seton Hall +22.32
Michigan State +22.25
Arizona +21.62
Ohio State +21.24
Iowa +21.06
Butler +20.06
Florida State +19.52
Oregon +19.32

23 at large worthy teams
Villanova +18.64
Colorado +18.51
Purdue +18.40
Penn St. +18.40
Illinois +18.36
BYU +18.31
Houston +18.02
Kentucky +17.86
Texas Tech +17.44
Rutgers +17.44
Marquette +17.40
Arkansas +17.34
Minnesota +17.26
Michigan +17.23
Stanford +17.22
Auburn +17.20
Wisconsin +17.19
Creighton +17.03
LSU +16.85
St. Mary's +16.77
Florida +16.62
Indiana +16.12
Wichita State +15.84

Bubble Teams:
Mississippi State +15.17....

We're right in the middle of that third tier. After the Providence debacle, we fell all the way to 41. In 4 games we have risen to 26th. I think we can play our way to the top of our current tier or even into the second tier pretty easily. We could also play ourselves out of the tournament. I feel decently confident about our play going forward.

Dayton is an elite team and we aren't. That says it all, doesn't it?

[jesmu84]

Almost peculiar to see how closely our trendline this season is following last seasons.

Pretty impressive coaching considering the loss of the Hausers, eh?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Almost peculiar to see how closely our trendline this season is following last seasons.

How do you figure? We've gone up 13 spots in the last 11 days. During the same stretch last season we fell a spot.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Dayton is an elite team and we aren't. That says it all, doesn't it?

It tells that any program can land a superstar and ride him for a year. And if it says it about Marquette, it also says it about Kentucky, North Carolina, UCLA, Indiana, Virginia, Villanova...etc.

[fjm]

Dayton is an elite team and we aren't. That says it all, doesn't it?

Are you willing to say the same about how far MU is ahead of UNC and UVA? (INSERT “YEAH BUT THEY WON A NATIONAL CHAMPIONSHIP SO ITS OK!!!” From half of you)

Teams go through waves. MU is doing just fine. The butler loss is tough to swallow. Should have won. But oh no’s. We lost.

The problem is half these students and people on here don’t think MU is good unless ESPN says they are too 25.

Students can hang all the FIRE WOJO stuff they want. But this team is actually pretty good. We just don’t have the #25 by our name. So freaaaak out everyone. Sheesh.

[🏀]

Dayton is an elite team and we aren't. That says it all, doesn't it?

Yep, more elite than Buzz ever had MU too

[Cheeks]

Almost peculiar to see how closely our trendline this season is following last seasons.

But in a tougher conference and without the Hausers when some said here we would crater.  Yes, peculiar.  Must be that the team is doing something right.


Love Stan Johnson’s text

[Elonsmusk]

How do you figure? We've gone up 13 spots in the last 11 days. During the same stretch last season we fell a spot.

I figure from looking at the two lines on the graph.  They for the most part have risen and fallen in similar fashion/timing.  I'm not micro counting the "spots" in a finite timeframe such as 13 spots in the last 11 days. 

[Elonsmusk]

It tells that any program can land a superstar and ride him for a year. And if it says it about Marquette, it also says it about Kentucky, North Carolina, UCLA, Indiana, Virginia, Villanova...etc.

Is Markus Howard a superstar?

[Elonsmusk]

But in a tougher conference and without the Hausers when some said here we would crater.  Yes, peculiar.  Must be that the team is doing something right.


Love Stan Johnson’s text

Yep.  I agree.  I've been pleasantly surprised with our results this year.  Can you post Stan Johnson's text here?

[ATL MU Warrior]

Is Markus Howard a superstar?

No. He’s an elite shooter/scorer.  That’s all.

[Elonsmusk]

No. He’s an elite shooter/scorer.  That’s all.

I happen to disagree.  I think Markus is a superstar, that has NOT been coached in such a way to extract the maximum of his talents and teams.

[Cheeks]

I happen to disagree.  I think Markus is a superstar, that has NOT been coached in such a way to extract the maximum of his talents and teams.

Of course....he has on,y improved every year and taken big steps...he did that all on his own... no coaching up.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Is Markus Howard a superstar?

Fair point. Personally, if I had to build a team around Toppin or a team around Howard, I would go with Toppin but no question that Howard is a superstar. I also think that if Dayton and Marquette switched schedules their numbers would look a little different.

[Elonsmusk]

Of course....he has on,y improved every year and taken big steps...he did that all on his own... no coaching up.

Okay - Let's say Wojo is responsible for all of Markus's INDIVIDUAL improvement - How much improvement has there been on Markus's teams?

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

I figure from looking at the two lines on the graph.  They for the most part have risen and fallen in similar fashion/timing.  I'm not micro counting the "spots" in a finite timeframe such as 13 spots in the last 11 days.

I'm still not seeing it. We started last season at 29 and never went higher than 28. By this point in the season we had fallen to 34 but had never gone lower than 36.

This season we started at 19, rose as high as 12, fell as far 41 and have since raised to 28.

Last season I see a team that stayed consistent between 28 and 36. This season I see a team that has had real high highs (12) and lower lows (41). Currently we are on a positive trend whereas last season we were holding steady.

[Cheeks]

Okay - Let's say Wojo is responsible for all of Markus's INDIVIDUAL improvement - How much improvement has there been on Markus's teams?

I posted that information last week....even YOU said you were surprised at how well we are doing in a BETTER conference without the Hausers....did that just happen?  Do the coaches have no contribution to that?  Get real.

[Elonsmusk]

I posted that information last week....even YOU said you were surprised at how well we are doing in a BETTER conference without the Hausers....did that just happen?  Do the coaches have no contribution to that?  Get real.

Well, I was debating with TAMU who ascribed Dayton's success to having a superstar player, and then ATL who posted Markus wasn't a superstar - instead just an elite scorer/shooter. 

I have been pleased with the team's performance, yes.  However, the Butler game is a microcosm of what I feel will be the ultimate storyline of Markus's career - the TEAMS never accomplished as much as they were capable, given his talent - because Wojo has repeatedly encouraged Markus to shoot more/ultimate green light.