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Author Topic: Badgers recruiting/roster  (Read 5764 times)

Not A Serious Person

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Re: Badgers recruiting/roster
« Reply #25 on: January 19, 2020, 02:38:38 PM »
Technically, no, But if you're a good enough athlete ans your family isn't uber-wealthy, they'll reach into their very large endowment and make sure you're covered.
They just don't call it an athletic scholarship.

About 70% of the Ivies enrollment get a tuition break. 

Harvard .... If your family makes less than $150k, the average tuition you pay of $12k/year.  Below $75k and a lot go for free (and before you make a lame attempt to troll me again ... I sent two kids to Ivies, one was a recruited athlete.)

But more important than money, the admissions standards for athletes is lower than the general student population.  See the larger "Aunt Becky" scandal.

See other than McGrory ... most of the known universe prefers to actually play at an ivy than be a practice dummy for Bucky (unless your donor/booster dad prefers Bucky).
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Billy Hoyle

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Re: Badgers recruiting/roster
« Reply #26 on: January 19, 2020, 05:00:45 PM »
Technically, no, But if you're a good enough athlete ans your family isn't uber-wealthy, they'll reach into their very large endowment and make sure you're covered.
They just don't call it an athletic scholarship.

The only time athletics can be taken into account with Ivy aid is 3 times per re ruining cycle to match another Ivy school’s financial package in football. It doesn’t and can’t happen in other sports. Aid is all FAFSA based and every athlete’s aid package and how it was decided is submitted to the conference office annually by the financial aid office, not athletics. Coaches request a “pre read” and it isn’t uncommon for recruitment to end upon getting that back because a kid would have to pay too much.
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Billy Hoyle

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Re: Badgers recruiting/roster
« Reply #27 on: January 19, 2020, 05:13:33 PM »
About 70% of the Ivies enrollment get a tuition break. 

Harvard .... If your family makes less than $150k, the average tuition you pay of $12k/year.  Below $75k and a lot go for free (and before you make a lame attempt to troll me again ... I sent two kids to Ivies, one was a recruited athlete.)

But more important than money, the admissions standards for athletes is lower than the general student population.  See the larger "Aunt Becky" scandal.

See other than McGrory ... most of the known universe prefers to actually play at an ivy than be a practice dummy for Bucky (unless your donor/booster dad prefers Bucky).

Not always. You have to meet your Index averages, so only a few recruits get those coveted spots. The Ivy raised the overall departmental Index a few years ago too.  You have the sport index and department index, so certain sports have lower or higher averages so that the department index average is met. As a result, many athletes have to meet the admissions requirements of the general student population.

Football is exempt from the Index, they have the Bands and only so many can be in each band.

Sorry to inject facts here.

Also, 2 hoops guys from Columbia left this past off season to be walkons at Michigan and Xavier respectively. A friend left an Ivy to be a walk on and play in the Big Dance with St. Joe’s. For some, they elitism and arrogance of the Ivy isn’t for them and they’d rather play for a major program while still getting a great education.
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Not A Serious Person

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Re: Badgers recruiting/roster
« Reply #28 on: January 19, 2020, 07:30:52 PM »
Not always. You have to meet your Index averages, so only a few recruits get those coveted spots. The Ivy raised the overall departmental Index a few years ago too.  You have the sport index and department index, so certain sports have lower or higher averages so that the department index average is met. As a result, many athletes have to meet the admissions requirements of the general student population.

Football is exempt from the Index, they have the Bands and only so many can be in each band.

Sorry to inject facts here.

Also, 2 hoops guys from Columbia left this past off season to be walkons at Michigan and Xavier respectively. A friend left an Ivy to be a walk on and play in the Big Dance with St. Joe’s. For some, they elitism and arrogance of the Ivy isn’t for them and they’d rather play for a major program while still getting a great education.

Teams are allowed spots for "lower quality" recruits.  Note I said "lower quality."  It is still well above the NCAA minimum and might be the average for an out of state applicant for a Big 10 school.

(Ivy Hockey is a good example of the lower quality recruit.  Typically around 2 per class, so 8 in total for the team).
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NorthernDancerColt

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Re: Badgers recruiting/roster
« Reply #29 on: January 19, 2020, 07:35:27 PM »

Regarding Duke ....

Look up Brendon Besser, four-year walk-on from Chicago.

Then look up his father Charles Besser (hint, MU undergrad, MU Law school, first wife was Al McGuire's daughter)

Then look up the company he founded ... intermedia.  Think Charles craps more than you make in a year.

Then look up what Allan Grayson did the summer before his Senior year (hint, he stayed at the Besser's $10m house in Chicago while he "interned" at Intermedia).

I'll conclude with this ... it is not against the NCAA rules to borrow money from "teammates" ... why do you think many of the wealthy and well-connected sons are "walk-ons."

Think booster loophole.

Charlie Besser is a heck of a good guy. Member at ConwayFarms when I worked there back in the day. I had to “teach” at a hospitality tent/indoor driving range Intermedia sponsored across the street from Augusta National in 1999, and Mr. Besser and his company treated everyone like family.

Only thing negative I will say about Intermedia is one of Charlie’s secretaries would not shut down her notebook before takeoff...back when it was a big deal. I think the flight attendant was a bit annoyed at her rebellious blonde passenger. I’m pretty sure Mr Besser was heading down in a private plane.

Charles is good friends with Bo Ellis, and he told me that before Crean got the job...he lobbied for Bo, but knew it was a longshot to say the least.
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Not A Serious Person

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Re: Badgers recruiting/roster
« Reply #30 on: January 19, 2020, 07:37:15 PM »
Not always. You have to meet your Index averages, so only a few recruits get those coveted spots. The Ivy raised the overall departmental Index a few years ago too.  You have the sport index and department index, so certain sports have lower or higher averages so that the department index average is met. As a result, many athletes have to meet the admissions requirements of the general student population.

Football is exempt from the Index, they have the Bands and only so many can be in each band.

Sorry to inject facts here.

Also, 2 hoops guys from Columbia left this past off season to be walkons at Michigan and Xavier respectively. A friend left an Ivy to be a walk on and play in the Big Dance with St. Joe’s. For some, they elitism and arrogance of the Ivy isn’t for them and they’d rather play for a major program while still getting a great education.

Correct ... my kid that was a recruited athlete to an Ivy was pressured by the coach to take and retake the SAT/ACT to improve.  The spot was promised as they got a "likely letter" in October of their senior year. But the coach needed to squeeze as much out of the test to keep the overall team average up.

So you're in, but this is the Ivy ... so keep taking and retaking the test.  Every point you can improve is a point he can "spend it" on another recruit.

Also, Ivies do not red-shirt.  Four academic years and you are done.  If you are injured, you participate in three seasons (could transfer or grad transfer for the fourth year).
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Not A Serious Person

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Re: Badgers recruiting/roster
« Reply #31 on: January 19, 2020, 07:41:58 PM »
Charlie Besser is a heck of a good guy. Member at ConwayFarms when I worked there back in the day. I had to “teach” at a hospitality tent/indoor driving range Intermedia sponsored across the street from Augusta National in 1999, and Mr. Besser and his company treated everyone like family.

Only thing negative I will say about Intermedia is one of Charlie’s secretaries would not shut down her notebook before takeoff...back when it was a big deal. I think the flight attendant was a bit annoyed at her rebellious blonde passenger. I’m pretty sure Mr Besser was heading down in a private plane.

Charles is good friends with Bo Ellis, and he told me that before Crean got the job...he lobbied for Bo, but knew it was a longshot to say the least.

He is a good guy (he really is) ... but he also has this in his history (Clinton pardoned him 13 days before his Presidency ended in January 2001)

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2001-01-07-0101070501-story.html

Another of those pardoned by Clinton, disbarred Chicago attorney Charles N. Besser, pleaded guilty in 1985 to mail fraud for his involvement in a scheme in which legal fees were paid to firms and then some portion was kicked back. He received 2 years of probation, was ordered to pay $62,000 in restitution and was fined $2,000.

Stripped of his law license, Besser climbed back to his feet professionally just a year later. In 1986, he founded Intersport Inc., which represents professional athletes, markets sporting events and sponsors televised sports.

His first marriage to the daughter of former Marquette University basketball coach Al McGuire ended in divorce. Besser is remarried with five children.

One of his children is a special-needs child, he said, and he has been active in the Special Olympics and a medical research foundation working on developmental disabilities. His company also sponsors an annual event, the Arete Awards for Courage in Sports, that recognizes "the indomitable will to overcome any obstacle."

Through e-mails, Besser said he applied for the pardon in April 1999 "to prove wrong the naysayers that hoped I'd never clear my name." He said he also applied so he could be more involved in charities, which had been reluctant to have a convicted felon on their governing board.

He declined to elaborate on his conviction, other than to say, "I didn't have the guts and maturity to stand up for what was right, and for that I paid a price that is indescribable."

Besser said he is contrite about his past and thinks more about what's ahead of him than what has transpired.

"I've learned," he said, "that you alone must pull yourself back from the brink and that comebacks are possible--that you must have the courage to go forward even after you have lost everything, been totally humiliated and are afraid of the future."
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CTWarrior

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Re: Badgers recruiting/roster
« Reply #32 on: January 21, 2020, 08:57:36 AM »
Correct ... my kid that was a recruited athlete to an Ivy was pressured by the coach to take and retake the SAT/ACT to improve.  The spot was promised as they got a "likely letter" in October of their senior year. But the coach needed to squeeze as much out of the test to keep the overall team average up.

So you're in, but this is the Ivy ... so keep taking and retaking the test.  Every point you can improve is a point he can "spend it" on another recruit.

Also, Ivies do not red-shirt.  Four academic years and you are done.  If you are injured, you participate in three seasons (could transfer or grad transfer for the fourth year).
My niece was recruited by Ivies (she was an excellent student and would not have trouble getting in as a basketball player) and when she went to visit one, my brother-in-law asked, "Why so many players on the roster?"  He was told that there are many "GPA boosters" on the team who are not going to play but keep the average academic standards (both pre and post entrance) for the team up to snuff.  He didn't say whether they knew that or not when they were recruited.  Because they don't grant basketball scholarships, they can have as may players as they want on the team.
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Benny B

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Re: Badgers recruiting/roster
« Reply #33 on: January 21, 2020, 09:24:58 AM »
About 70% of the Ivies enrollment get a tuition break. 

Harvard .... If your family makes less than $150k, the average tuition you pay of $12k/year.  Below $75k and a lot go for free (and before you make a lame attempt to troll me again ... I sent two kids to Ivies, one was a recruited athlete.)

But more important than money, the admissions standards for athletes is lower than the general student population.  See the larger "Aunt Becky" scandal.

See other than McGrory ... most of the known universe prefers to actually play at an ivy than be a practice dummy for Bucky (unless your donor/booster dad prefers Bucky).

Amazing that Heisy must have had the world's only Oxford-educated milkman.  Either that or he shouldn't be throwing stones at Aunt Becky.
Wow, I'm very concerned for Benny.  Being able to mimic Myron Medcalf's writing so closely implies an oncoming case of dementia.

Billy Hoyle

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Re: Badgers recruiting/roster
« Reply #34 on: January 21, 2020, 11:14:09 AM »
My niece was recruited by Ivies (she was an excellent student and would not have trouble getting in as a basketball player) and when she went to visit one, my brother-in-law asked, "Why so many players on the roster?"  He was told that there are many "GPA boosters" on the team who are not going to play but keep the average academic standards (both pre and post entrance) for the team up to snuff.  He didn't say whether they knew that or not when they were recruited.  Because they don't grant basketball scholarships, they can have as may players as they want on the team.

Incorrect. Basketball is the only sport that has to adhere to the NCAA limit of 13 counters. In the Ivy that's recruited individuals who receive any aid. If you can get good players who are rich kids who get no money and whose parents are willing to pay $70K a year then you can pad the roster with a few extras, but there are only so many of those out there.
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Not A Serious Person

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Re: Badgers recruiting/roster
« Reply #35 on: January 21, 2020, 02:00:37 PM »
Incorrect. Basketball is the only sport that has to adhere to the NCAA limit of 13 counters. In the Ivy that's recruited individuals who receive any aid. If you can get good players who are rich kids who get no money and whose parents are willing to pay $70K a year then you can pad the roster with a few extras, but there are only so many of those out there.

Correct ... two types of sports, "headcount" sports, which basketball is one.  They have a "hard" number of roster spots ... 13 for basketball.  At the D1 level, you get a spot and a free-ride or you are a walk-on, no in-between.

The other is "equivalency sports."  Cross country/track is one ... you get the money for 12.6 (men) or 18 (women) for the teams.  You can divide the money how you like, partial and full-rides.  Partially can be as low as 1% to 5%.

Regarding Harvard/Ivies ... they have a big problem with their sports programs.  Kids that excel in HS use their athletic achievements to leverage themselves into the Ivy, only to quit and remain in that school as a student.  They will not kick you out.  But since they do not offer athletic only scholarships (instead give generous financial aid), you do not lose your financial aid should you quit.  So, the percentage of kids that quit at the Ivies is very high.

Could you do the same at, say, Stanford?  Yes, and remain at Stanford as a regular student. But Stanford offers athletic scholarships so you have a financial incentive to stay on the team as you have to start paying if you quit.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 02:04:13 PM by Heisenberg v2.0 »
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Billy Hoyle

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Re: Badgers recruiting/roster
« Reply #36 on: January 21, 2020, 02:18:07 PM »
Correct ... two types of sports, "headcount" sports, which basketball is one.  They have a "hard" number of roster spots ... 13 for basketball.  At the D1 level, you get a spot and a free-ride or you are a walk-on, no in-between.

The other is "equivalency sports."  Cross country/track is one ... you get the money for 12.6 (men) or 18 (women) for the teams.  You can divide the money how you like, partial and full-rides.  Partially can be as low as 1% to 5%.

Regarding Harvard/Ivies ... they have a big problem with their sports programs.  Kids that excel in HS use their athletic achievements to leverage themselves into the Ivy, only to quit and remain in that school as a student.  They will not kick you out.  But since they do not offer athletic only scholarships (instead give generous financial aid), you do not lose your financial aid should you quit.  So, the percentage of kids that quit at the Ivies is very high.

Could you do the same at, say, Stanford?  Yes, and remain at Stanford as a regular student. But Stanford offers athletic scholarships so you have a financial incentive to stay on the team as you have to start paying if you quit.

It's not as big of an issue that you'd think. I knew of a couple of kids who used the athletic admissions preference to get in then quit but it was a very small number. In one case the parents and coaches covered up a kid's history of concussions and then he quit when he got a concussion in fall practice. But, honestly, in the major sports where there is admissions preference is didn't happen that often. The biggest attrition is in sports like Rowing, and most of those are rich prep school kids who don't need admissions help nor aid.
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Not A Serious Person

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Re: Badgers recruiting/roster
« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2020, 05:41:44 PM »
It's not as big of an issue that you'd think. I knew of a couple of kids who used the athletic admissions preference to get in then quit but it was a very small number. In one case the parents and coaches covered up a kid's history of concussions and then he quit when he got a concussion in fall practice. But, honestly, in the major sports where there is admissions preference is didn't happen that often. The biggest attrition is in sports like Rowing, and most of those are rich prep school kids who don't need admissions help nor aid.

You can see it in the recruiting numbers (and, I'm largely talking about non-revenue sports).

Go back and total the number of incoming freshmen over the previous four years.  And look at the total number on the team now.  Way more coming in than are on the team.

I have two kids that played D1 sports, in different sports.  So I have seen this first hand.

The one that plays for an Ivy ... the coach flat out told me this is a problem for the ivies.

He also said the selective D3 schools. Chicago, Hopkins, MIT, etc have a similar issue as they don't have the "motivator" of money (athletic scholarships) to keep kids on the team.
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Billy Hoyle

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Re: Badgers recruiting/roster
« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2020, 06:45:53 PM »
You can see it in the recruiting numbers (and, I'm largely talking about non-revenue sports).

Go back and total the number of incoming freshmen over the previous four years.  And look at the total number on the team now.  Way more coming in than are on the team.

I have two kids that played D1 sports, in different sports.  So I have seen this first hand.

The one that plays for an Ivy ... the coach flat out told me this is a problem for the ivies.

He also said the selective D3 schools. Chicago, Hopkins, MIT, etc have a similar issue as they don't have the "motivator" of money (athletic scholarships) to keep kids on the team.

from my experience being at an Ivy institution, those who left were not those who were brought in using an admission spot. I only had to track, document and report that information for the Ivy League office and the school's Admissions Office but what would I know?

Thought maybe the Harvard coaches are really bad at evaluating kids and wasting admission spots. Not an issue where I was. Other than rowing and fencing, we had more transfers out than kids quitting.
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Not A Serious Person

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Re: Badgers recruiting/roster
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2020, 07:24:36 PM »
from my experience being at an Ivy institution, those who left were not those who were brought in using an admission spot. I only had to track, document and report that information for the Ivy League office and the school's Admissions Office but what would I know?

Thought maybe the Harvard coaches are really bad at evaluating kids and wasting admission spots. Not an issue where I was. Other than rowing and fencing, we had more transfers out than kids quitting.

The majority of the team does not use a lower academic athlete spot.  The majority of the team has the minimum SAT/ACT scores.

But with admission rates under 10%, and approaching 5%, you are still a long way from getting into an Ivy with a 33 or 34 ACT.  But a 33 is "as good as in" if you are a recruited athlete.

Then the question is why did you choose an Ivy over, say a big 10 school (and an athletic scholarship)?  Academics are very important.  So important that you play a year or two and then quit to focus on academics? 

I think this happens more at the Ivies than any other D1 school.

« Last Edit: January 21, 2020, 07:26:51 PM by Heisenberg v2.0 »
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