Badgers recruiting/roster

[Afroman]

Let me preface this by saying that there is no team I dislike more in college basketball than Wisconsin.

With that said, I need someone to explain something to me.

The Badgers have 16 players listed on their current roster (I'm assuming a few of those are walk-ons). They have one senior. In November, they announced the signing of five newcomers in their 2020 class.

I don't get it. For the last decade, it always seems as though Marquette has 10 or 11 guys while Wisconsin always trots out a small army.

Isn't every team awarded the same number of scholarships?

[Cheeks]

Let me preface this by saying that there is no team I dislike more in college basketball than Wisconsin.

With that said, I need someone to explain something to me.

The Badgers have 16 players listed on their current roster (I'm assuming a few of those are walk-ons). They have one senior. In November, they announced the signing of five newcomers in their 2020 class.

I don't get it. For the last decade, it always seems as though Marquette has 10 or 11 guys while Wisconsin always trots out a small army.

Isn't every team awarded the same number of scholarships?

Walk ons

Every team limited to max scholarships of 13

[JWags85]

Let me preface this by saying that there is no team I dislike more in college basketball than Wisconsin.

With that said, I need someone to explain something to me.

The Badgers have 16 players listed on their current roster (I'm assuming a few of those are walk-ons). They have one senior. In November, they announced the signing of five newcomers in their 2020 class.

I don't get it. For the last decade, it always seems as though Marquette has 10 or 11 guys while Wisconsin always trots out a small army.

Isn't every team awarded the same number of scholarships?

Seems like 4-5 walk ons.  They likely have a robust preferred walk-on program, just like the football team.

Definitely thought this was gonna be about their absurdly overrated incoming class, and people talking about how their 2021 class is #1 in the country...even though most teams havent gotten their commits yet

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Let me preface this by saying that there is no team I dislike more in college basketball than Wisconsin.

With that said, I need someone to explain something to me.

The Badgers have 16 players listed on their current roster (I'm assuming a few of those are walk-ons). They have one senior. In November, they announced the signing of five newcomers in their 2020 class.

I don't get it. For the last decade, it always seems as though Marquette has 10 or 11 guys while Wisconsin always trots out a small army.

Isn't every team awarded the same number of scholarships?

It's cheaper for UW to attract walk ons as a public university.

[Not A Serious Person]

For many schools (not all), what is a "walk-on?"  The answer, it is the son of a very rich donor or someone like this.  It is a perk for them, and great for their resume!

That said, the kid still has to come to practice every day, on time, and work their a$$ off.  But if daddy can write a check, and you're willing to do it, a spot on the team can be "purchased."

Wall Street loves this crap when it comes to hiring newly minted undergrads.

[Not A Serious Person]

For many schools (not all), what is a "walk-on?"  The answer, it is the son of a very rich donor or someone like this.  It is a perk for them, and great for their resume!

That said, the kid still has to come to practice every day, on time, and work their a$$ off.  But if daddy can write a check, and you're willing to do it, a spot on the team can be "purchased."

Wall Street loves this crap when it comes to hiring newly minted undergrads.

One example from Bucky's roster ...

Walt McGrory
https://uwbadgers.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster/walt-mcgrory/7405
turned down scholarship offers from five NCAA Division I programs including Brown, Drake, Furman, Maine and South Dakota State

His dad is Matt McGrory, a big-time banking attorney in Minneapolis. (read he can afford to pay out of state tuition and a donation to get Walt on the team.)

[JWags85]

One example from Bucky's roster ...

Walt McGrory
https://uwbadgers.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster/walt-mcgrory/7405
turned down scholarship offers from five NCAA Division I programs including Brown, Drake, Furman, Maine and South Dakota State

His dad is Matt McGrory, a big-time banking attorney in Minneapolis. (read he can afford to pay out of state tuition and a donation to get Walt on the team.)

This may be the worst example you could possibly find.  Minnesota has reciprocity, so he's basically paying in state tuition.  And nobody is donating to get a low-mid major caliber player a walk-on spot.  He's more than good enough without a check being written.  Swing and a whiff

[wadesworld]

One example from Bucky's roster ...

Walt McGrory
https://uwbadgers.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster/walt-mcgrory/7405
turned down scholarship offers from five NCAA Division I programs including Brown, Drake, Furman, Maine and South Dakota State

His dad is Matt McGrory, a big-time banking attorney in Minneapolis. (read he can afford to pay out of state tuition and a donation to get Walt on the team.)

Pretty sure Ivy League schools don't give out athletic scholarships.

[Not A Serious Person]

This may be the worst example you could possibly find.  Minnesota has reciprocity, so he's basically paying in state tuition.  And nobody is donating to get a low-mid major caliber player a walk-on spot.  He's more than good enough without a check being written.  Swing and a whiff

Just to be clear ... you don't think that the sons of the rich and connected are not regularly chosen as walk-ons?  You believe it is a straight meritocracy?

(and to be clear, they have to be somewhat accomplished HS basketball players and willing to put in the time in practice) 

[JWags85]

Just to be clear ... you don't think that the sons of the rich and connected are not regularly chosen as walk-ons?  You believe it is a straight meritocracy?

(and to be clear, they have to be somewhat accomplished HS basketball players and willing to put in the time in practice)

I never said that.  Just look at a place like Duke where walk-on spots are usually given to wealthy/connected kids, or like the walk-on currently whose father was NCAA champion soccer player at Duke in the 80s.  Heck, love him and he's a great representative of the university, but he wasn't even the best player on an ok HS team.  But he was the son of a prestigious alum.

But none of that takes away from your blatantly false and non-factual assumption. He'd be taken as a walk-on almost anywhere even if his father was a penniless nobody.

[Not A Serious Person]

I never said that.  Just look at a place like Duke where walk-on spots are usually given to wealthy/connected kids, or like the walk-on currently whose father was NCAA champion soccer player at Duke in the 80s.  Heck, love him and he's a great representative of the university, but he wasn't even the best player on an ok HS team.  But he was the son of a prestigious alum.

But none of that takes away from your blatantly false and non-factual assumption. He'd be taken as a walk-on almost anywhere even if his father was a penniless nobody.

Regarding Duke ....

Look up Brendon Besser, four-year walk-on from Chicago.

Then look up his father Charles Besser (hint, MU undergrad, MU Law school, first wife was Al McGuire's daughter)

Then look up the company he founded ... intermedia.  Think Charles craps more than you make in a year.

Then look up what Allan Grayson did the summer before his Senior year (hint, he stayed at the Besser's $10m house in Chicago while he "interned" at Intermedia).

I'll conclude with this ... it is not against the NCAA rules to borrow money from "teammates" ... why do you think many of the wealthy and well-connected sons are "walk-ons."

Think booster loophole.

[ATL MU Warrior]

Regarding Duke ....

Look up Brendon Besser, four-year walk-on from Chicago.

Then look up his father Charles Besser (hint, MU undergrad, MU Law school, first wife was Al McGuire's daughter)

Then look up the company he founded ... intermedia.  Think Charles craps more than you make in a year.

Then look up what Allan Grayson did the summer before his Senior year (hint, he stayed at the Besser's $10m house in Chicago while he "interned" at Intermedia).

I'll conclude with this ... it is not against the NCAA rules to borrow money from "teammates" ... why do you think many of the wealthy and well-connected sons are "walk-ons."

Think booster loophole.

who the heck is Allan Grayson?

[tower912]

He may have gotten tripped up with order of names.  Ain't that a kick?

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

He may have gotten tripped up with order of names.  Ain't that a kick?

Spelling his name wrong in the process.

[MU82]

Have Marquette's walk-ons historically been the sons of rich donors?

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Have Marquette's walk-ons historically been the sons of rich donors?

No.  Heisey's being Heisey.

[Not A Serious Person]

Have Marquette's walk-ons historically been the sons of rich donors?

I never said MU was guilty of this.  I also said that "some" of the walk-ons fit this description.  See Duke (detailed above), Kentucky, Lousiville (under slick Rick)

and even Northwestern (See Charlie Hall, his mom is Julia Louis Dreyfus/Dad Brad Hall, and Tino Milnati ... his grandfather is the pizzeria and his family are big NU donors, in fact, NU Hositpal has the "Malnati Brain Cancer Institute" funded by the family ... and Tino's dad is Rick, the former Fenwick's BBall coach, and NU was hard after Fenwick's DJ Seward before he committed to Duke)

I'm sure we all know that coaches make "questionable" assistant coach hires to secure players, see Depaul hiring Shane Hierman from La Lumiere, and then Depaul briefly had a commit from top 50 recruit Tyger Campbell.  This is just an extension of that. (am I allowed to mention Stan Johnson and Marcus here?)

[Not A Serious Person]

If you want more examples of "carefully chosen" walk-ons at Wisconsin

https://uwbadgers.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster/carter-higginbottom/7403
(dad is a big donor, and famous Bucky track athlete)

https://uwbadgers.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster/trevor-anderson/7397
(Dad was the Hausers' Spash head coach, Trevor got his preferred walk-on spot in the middle of Bucky recruiting Sam)

[Not A Serious Person]

Again, all I'm saying is, like SOME assistant coaches, SOME walk-ons are more that "tackling dummies" for practice.  Walk-ons can also be rewards to big donors (so they can brag their son in on the team), or to get a big donation secured, or to endear the program to someone that influences a big-time recruit.

Not hard at all to understand.

[wadesworld]

If you want more examples of "carefully chosen" walk-ons at Wisconsin

https://uwbadgers.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster/carter-higginbottom/7403
(dad is a big donor, and famous Bucky track athlete)

https://uwbadgers.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster/trevor-anderson/7397
(Dad was the Hausers' Spash head coach, Trevor got his preferred walk-on spot in the middle of Bucky recruiting Sam)

Trevor Anderson was a full scholarship player at UWGB. Probably not the best example.

[Billy Hoyle]

One example from Bucky's roster ...

Walt McGrory
https://uwbadgers.com/sports/mens-basketball/roster/walt-mcgrory/7405
turned down scholarship offers from five NCAA Division I programs including Brown, Drake, Furman, Maine and South Dakota State

His dad is Matt McGrory, a big-time banking attorney in Minneapolis. (read he can afford to pay out of state tuition and a donation to get Walt on the team.)

Or maybe, the kid wanted to play in the Big Ten and get a degree from UW, was good enough for a spot on the team and decided that was a better path than playing at and graduating from that academic juggernaut Maine or South Dakota State and was fortunate that dad could pay for him to do that.

Many kids at Ivy schools could go for free to mid and low majors but choose to pay something to get an Ivy degree while playing ball.

[Not A Serious Person]

Trevor Anderson was a full scholarship player at UWGB. Probably not the best example.

Maybe ... But do you believe Bucky would take anyone from UWGB as a walk-on?  Or was their an "added benefit" to making a spot for Trevor?

[Not A Serious Person]

Or maybe, the kid wanted to play in the Big Ten and get a degree from UW, was good enough for a spot on the team and decided that was a better path than playing at and graduating from that academic juggernaut Maine or South Dakota State and was fortunate that dad could pay for him to do that.

Many kids at Ivy schools could go for free to mid and low majors but choose to pay something to get an Ivy degree while playing ball.

Sure, I can make up things too ... like the cops decided upon themselves, without any female report complaint, to stop LSU from smoking cigars.

[wadesworld]

Maybe ... But do you believe Bucky would take anyone from UWGB as a walk-on?  Or was their an "added benefit" to making a spot for Trevor?

I believe basically any D1 program in the country would take any scholarship player from any Horizon League program as a walk on.

Maybe they’re giving Trevor Anderson minutes so that if Sam and Joey hate UVA and MSU they’ll be in a good spot to land then, hey?

Keep digging.

[Pakuni]

Pretty sure Ivy League schools don't give out athletic scholarships.

Technically, no, But if you're a good enough athlete ans your family isn't uber-wealthy, they'll reach into their very large endowment and make sure you're covered.
They just don't call it an athletic scholarship.

[Not A Serious Person]

Technically, no, But if you're a good enough athlete ans your family isn't uber-wealthy, they'll reach into their very large endowment and make sure you're covered.
They just don't call it an athletic scholarship.

About 70% of the Ivies enrollment get a tuition break. 

Harvard .... If your family makes less than $150k, the average tuition you pay of $12k/year.  Below $75k and a lot go for free (and before you make a lame attempt to troll me again ... I sent two kids to Ivies, one was a recruited athlete.)

But more important than money, the admissions standards for athletes is lower than the general student population.  See the larger "Aunt Becky" scandal.

See other than McGrory ... most of the known universe prefers to actually play at an ivy than be a practice dummy for Bucky (unless your donor/booster dad prefers Bucky).

[Billy Hoyle]

Technically, no, But if you're a good enough athlete ans your family isn't uber-wealthy, they'll reach into their very large endowment and make sure you're covered.
They just don't call it an athletic scholarship.

The only time athletics can be taken into account with Ivy aid is 3 times per re ruining cycle to match another Ivy school’s financial package in football. It doesn’t and can’t happen in other sports. Aid is all FAFSA based and every athlete’s aid package and how it was decided is submitted to the conference office annually by the financial aid office, not athletics. Coaches request a “pre read” and it isn’t uncommon for recruitment to end upon getting that back because a kid would have to pay too much.

[Billy Hoyle]

About 70% of the Ivies enrollment get a tuition break. 

Harvard .... If your family makes less than $150k, the average tuition you pay of $12k/year.  Below $75k and a lot go for free (and before you make a lame attempt to troll me again ... I sent two kids to Ivies, one was a recruited athlete.)

But more important than money, the admissions standards for athletes is lower than the general student population.  See the larger "Aunt Becky" scandal.

See other than McGrory ... most of the known universe prefers to actually play at an ivy than be a practice dummy for Bucky (unless your donor/booster dad prefers Bucky).

Not always. You have to meet your Index averages, so only a few recruits get those coveted spots. The Ivy raised the overall departmental Index a few years ago too.  You have the sport index and department index, so certain sports have lower or higher averages so that the department index average is met. As a result, many athletes have to meet the admissions requirements of the general student population.

Football is exempt from the Index, they have the Bands and only so many can be in each band.

Sorry to inject facts here.

Also, 2 hoops guys from Columbia left this past off season to be walkons at Michigan and Xavier respectively. A friend left an Ivy to be a walk on and play in the Big Dance with St. Joe’s. For some, they elitism and arrogance of the Ivy isn’t for them and they’d rather play for a major program while still getting a great education.

[Not A Serious Person]

Not always. You have to meet your Index averages, so only a few recruits get those coveted spots. The Ivy raised the overall departmental Index a few years ago too.  You have the sport index and department index, so certain sports have lower or higher averages so that the department index average is met. As a result, many athletes have to meet the admissions requirements of the general student population.

Football is exempt from the Index, they have the Bands and only so many can be in each band.

Sorry to inject facts here.

Also, 2 hoops guys from Columbia left this past off season to be walkons at Michigan and Xavier respectively. A friend left an Ivy to be a walk on and play in the Big Dance with St. Joe’s. For some, they elitism and arrogance of the Ivy isn’t for them and they’d rather play for a major program while still getting a great education.

Teams are allowed spots for "lower quality" recruits.  Note I said "lower quality."  It is still well above the NCAA minimum and might be the average for an out of state applicant for a Big 10 school.

(Ivy Hockey is a good example of the lower quality recruit.  Typically around 2 per class, so 8 in total for the team).

[NorthernDancerColt]

Regarding Duke ....

Look up Brendon Besser, four-year walk-on from Chicago.

Then look up his father Charles Besser (hint, MU undergrad, MU Law school, first wife was Al McGuire's daughter)

Then look up the company he founded ... intermedia.  Think Charles craps more than you make in a year.

Then look up what Allan Grayson did the summer before his Senior year (hint, he stayed at the Besser's $10m house in Chicago while he "interned" at Intermedia).

I'll conclude with this ... it is not against the NCAA rules to borrow money from "teammates" ... why do you think many of the wealthy and well-connected sons are "walk-ons."

Think booster loophole.

Charlie Besser is a heck of a good guy. Member at ConwayFarms when I worked there back in the day. I had to “teach” at a hospitality tent/indoor driving range Intermedia sponsored across the street from Augusta National in 1999, and Mr. Besser and his company treated everyone like family.

Only thing negative I will say about Intermedia is one of Charlie’s secretaries would not shut down her notebook before takeoff...back when it was a big deal. I think the flight attendant was a bit annoyed at her rebellious blonde passenger. I’m pretty sure Mr Besser was heading down in a private plane.

Charles is good friends with Bo Ellis, and he told me that before Crean got the job...he lobbied for Bo, but knew it was a longshot to say the least.

[Not A Serious Person]

Not always. You have to meet your Index averages, so only a few recruits get those coveted spots. The Ivy raised the overall departmental Index a few years ago too.  You have the sport index and department index, so certain sports have lower or higher averages so that the department index average is met. As a result, many athletes have to meet the admissions requirements of the general student population.

Football is exempt from the Index, they have the Bands and only so many can be in each band.

Sorry to inject facts here.

Also, 2 hoops guys from Columbia left this past off season to be walkons at Michigan and Xavier respectively. A friend left an Ivy to be a walk on and play in the Big Dance with St. Joe’s. For some, they elitism and arrogance of the Ivy isn’t for them and they’d rather play for a major program while still getting a great education.

Correct ... my kid that was a recruited athlete to an Ivy was pressured by the coach to take and retake the SAT/ACT to improve.  The spot was promised as they got a "likely letter" in October of their senior year. But the coach needed to squeeze as much out of the test to keep the overall team average up.

So you're in, but this is the Ivy ... so keep taking and retaking the test.  Every point you can improve is a point he can "spend it" on another recruit.

Also, Ivies do not red-shirt.  Four academic years and you are done.  If you are injured, you participate in three seasons (could transfer or grad transfer for the fourth year).

[Not A Serious Person]

Charlie Besser is a heck of a good guy. Member at ConwayFarms when I worked there back in the day. I had to “teach” at a hospitality tent/indoor driving range Intermedia sponsored across the street from Augusta National in 1999, and Mr. Besser and his company treated everyone like family.

Only thing negative I will say about Intermedia is one of Charlie’s secretaries would not shut down her notebook before takeoff...back when it was a big deal. I think the flight attendant was a bit annoyed at her rebellious blonde passenger. I’m pretty sure Mr Besser was heading down in a private plane.

Charles is good friends with Bo Ellis, and he told me that before Crean got the job...he lobbied for Bo, but knew it was a longshot to say the least.

He is a good guy (he really is) ... but he also has this in his history (Clinton pardoned him 13 days before his Presidency ended in January 2001)

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct-xpm-2001-01-07-0101070501-story.html

Another of those pardoned by Clinton, disbarred Chicago attorney Charles N. Besser, pleaded guilty in 1985 to mail fraud for his involvement in a scheme in which legal fees were paid to firms and then some portion was kicked back. He received 2 years of probation, was ordered to pay $62,000 in restitution and was fined $2,000.

Stripped of his law license, Besser climbed back to his feet professionally just a year later. In 1986, he founded Intersport Inc., which represents professional athletes, markets sporting events and sponsors televised sports.

His first marriage to the daughter of former Marquette University basketball coach Al McGuire ended in divorce. Besser is remarried with five children.

One of his children is a special-needs child, he said, and he has been active in the Special Olympics and a medical research foundation working on developmental disabilities. His company also sponsors an annual event, the Arete Awards for Courage in Sports, that recognizes "the indomitable will to overcome any obstacle."

Through e-mails, Besser said he applied for the pardon in April 1999 "to prove wrong the naysayers that hoped I'd never clear my name." He said he also applied so he could be more involved in charities, which had been reluctant to have a convicted felon on their governing board.

He declined to elaborate on his conviction, other than to say, "I didn't have the guts and maturity to stand up for what was right, and for that I paid a price that is indescribable."

Besser said he is contrite about his past and thinks more about what's ahead of him than what has transpired.

"I've learned," he said, "that you alone must pull yourself back from the brink and that comebacks are possible--that you must have the courage to go forward even after you have lost everything, been totally humiliated and are afraid of the future."

[CTWarrior]

Correct ... my kid that was a recruited athlete to an Ivy was pressured by the coach to take and retake the SAT/ACT to improve.  The spot was promised as they got a "likely letter" in October of their senior year. But the coach needed to squeeze as much out of the test to keep the overall team average up.

So you're in, but this is the Ivy ... so keep taking and retaking the test.  Every point you can improve is a point he can "spend it" on another recruit.

Also, Ivies do not red-shirt.  Four academic years and you are done.  If you are injured, you participate in three seasons (could transfer or grad transfer for the fourth year).

My niece was recruited by Ivies (she was an excellent student and would not have trouble getting in as a basketball player) and when she went to visit one, my brother-in-law asked, "Why so many players on the roster?"  He was told that there are many "GPA boosters" on the team who are not going to play but keep the average academic standards (both pre and post entrance) for the team up to snuff.  He didn't say whether they knew that or not when they were recruited.  Because they don't grant basketball scholarships, they can have as may players as they want on the team.

[Benny B]

About 70% of the Ivies enrollment get a tuition break. 

Harvard .... If your family makes less than $150k, the average tuition you pay of $12k/year.  Below $75k and a lot go for free (and before you make a lame attempt to troll me again ... I sent two kids to Ivies, one was a recruited athlete.)

But more important than money, the admissions standards for athletes is lower than the general student population.  See the larger "Aunt Becky" scandal.

See other than McGrory ... most of the known universe prefers to actually play at an ivy than be a practice dummy for Bucky (unless your donor/booster dad prefers Bucky).

Amazing that Heisy must have had the world's only Oxford-educated milkman.  Either that or he shouldn't be throwing stones at Aunt Becky.

[Billy Hoyle]

My niece was recruited by Ivies (she was an excellent student and would not have trouble getting in as a basketball player) and when she went to visit one, my brother-in-law asked, "Why so many players on the roster?"  He was told that there are many "GPA boosters" on the team who are not going to play but keep the average academic standards (both pre and post entrance) for the team up to snuff.  He didn't say whether they knew that or not when they were recruited.  Because they don't grant basketball scholarships, they can have as may players as they want on the team.

Incorrect. Basketball is the only sport that has to adhere to the NCAA limit of 13 counters. In the Ivy that's recruited individuals who receive any aid. If you can get good players who are rich kids who get no money and whose parents are willing to pay $70K a year then you can pad the roster with a few extras, but there are only so many of those out there.

[Not A Serious Person]

Incorrect. Basketball is the only sport that has to adhere to the NCAA limit of 13 counters. In the Ivy that's recruited individuals who receive any aid. If you can get good players who are rich kids who get no money and whose parents are willing to pay $70K a year then you can pad the roster with a few extras, but there are only so many of those out there.

Correct ... two types of sports, "headcount" sports, which basketball is one.  They have a "hard" number of roster spots ... 13 for basketball.  At the D1 level, you get a spot and a free-ride or you are a walk-on, no in-between.

The other is "equivalency sports."  Cross country/track is one ... you get the money for 12.6 (men) or 18 (women) for the teams.  You can divide the money how you like, partial and full-rides.  Partially can be as low as 1% to 5%.

Regarding Harvard/Ivies ... they have a big problem with their sports programs.  Kids that excel in HS use their athletic achievements to leverage themselves into the Ivy, only to quit and remain in that school as a student.  They will not kick you out.  But since they do not offer athletic only scholarships (instead give generous financial aid), you do not lose your financial aid should you quit.  So, the percentage of kids that quit at the Ivies is very high.

Could you do the same at, say, Stanford?  Yes, and remain at Stanford as a regular student. But Stanford offers athletic scholarships so you have a financial incentive to stay on the team as you have to start paying if you quit.

[Billy Hoyle]

Correct ... two types of sports, "headcount" sports, which basketball is one.  They have a "hard" number of roster spots ... 13 for basketball.  At the D1 level, you get a spot and a free-ride or you are a walk-on, no in-between.

The other is "equivalency sports."  Cross country/track is one ... you get the money for 12.6 (men) or 18 (women) for the teams.  You can divide the money how you like, partial and full-rides.  Partially can be as low as 1% to 5%.

Regarding Harvard/Ivies ... they have a big problem with their sports programs.  Kids that excel in HS use their athletic achievements to leverage themselves into the Ivy, only to quit and remain in that school as a student.  They will not kick you out.  But since they do not offer athletic only scholarships (instead give generous financial aid), you do not lose your financial aid should you quit.  So, the percentage of kids that quit at the Ivies is very high.

Could you do the same at, say, Stanford?  Yes, and remain at Stanford as a regular student. But Stanford offers athletic scholarships so you have a financial incentive to stay on the team as you have to start paying if you quit.

It's not as big of an issue that you'd think. I knew of a couple of kids who used the athletic admissions preference to get in then quit but it was a very small number. In one case the parents and coaches covered up a kid's history of concussions and then he quit when he got a concussion in fall practice. But, honestly, in the major sports where there is admissions preference is didn't happen that often. The biggest attrition is in sports like Rowing, and most of those are rich prep school kids who don't need admissions help nor aid.

[Not A Serious Person]

It's not as big of an issue that you'd think. I knew of a couple of kids who used the athletic admissions preference to get in then quit but it was a very small number. In one case the parents and coaches covered up a kid's history of concussions and then he quit when he got a concussion in fall practice. But, honestly, in the major sports where there is admissions preference is didn't happen that often. The biggest attrition is in sports like Rowing, and most of those are rich prep school kids who don't need admissions help nor aid.

You can see it in the recruiting numbers (and, I'm largely talking about non-revenue sports).

Go back and total the number of incoming freshmen over the previous four years.  And look at the total number on the team now.  Way more coming in than are on the team.

I have two kids that played D1 sports, in different sports.  So I have seen this first hand.

The one that plays for an Ivy ... the coach flat out told me this is a problem for the ivies.

He also said the selective D3 schools. Chicago, Hopkins, MIT, etc have a similar issue as they don't have the "motivator" of money (athletic scholarships) to keep kids on the team.

[Billy Hoyle]

You can see it in the recruiting numbers (and, I'm largely talking about non-revenue sports).

Go back and total the number of incoming freshmen over the previous four years.  And look at the total number on the team now.  Way more coming in than are on the team.

I have two kids that played D1 sports, in different sports.  So I have seen this first hand.

The one that plays for an Ivy ... the coach flat out told me this is a problem for the ivies.

He also said the selective D3 schools. Chicago, Hopkins, MIT, etc have a similar issue as they don't have the "motivator" of money (athletic scholarships) to keep kids on the team.

from my experience being at an Ivy institution, those who left were not those who were brought in using an admission spot. I only had to track, document and report that information for the Ivy League office and the school's Admissions Office but what would I know?

Thought maybe the Harvard coaches are really bad at evaluating kids and wasting admission spots. Not an issue where I was. Other than rowing and fencing, we had more transfers out than kids quitting.

[Not A Serious Person]

from my experience being at an Ivy institution, those who left were not those who were brought in using an admission spot. I only had to track, document and report that information for the Ivy League office and the school's Admissions Office but what would I know?

Thought maybe the Harvard coaches are really bad at evaluating kids and wasting admission spots. Not an issue where I was. Other than rowing and fencing, we had more transfers out than kids quitting.

The majority of the team does not use a lower academic athlete spot.  The majority of the team has the minimum SAT/ACT scores.

But with admission rates under 10%, and approaching 5%, you are still a long way from getting into an Ivy with a 33 or 34 ACT.  But a 33 is "as good as in" if you are a recruited athlete.

Then the question is why did you choose an Ivy over, say a big 10 school (and an athletic scholarship)?  Academics are very important.  So important that you play a year or two and then quit to focus on academics? 

I think this happens more at the Ivies than any other D1 school.