Pro-Jos V. No-Jos

[Pakuni]

If there was a letter - and I tend to think not - then MU is better off without its authors.

[Cheeks]

I'm talking about the letter though.  Do you think it said "I'd be more comfortable at a big state school," or that it took issue with Wojo's coaching instead?

I agree with you that the entire team wasn't staying together.  That's on Wojo.

I have no idea about the letter, if it existed, if it is a figment of someone's imagination and have stayed away in large part from even the notion of it.

[tower912]

In your opinion.   I put it on the people who didn't want to play with Markus or for Wojo anymore.

[Small Orange Soda]

In your opinion.   I put it on the people who didn't want to play with Markus or for Wojo anymore.

When locker rooms fall apart, the coach takes heat for it.  Not exactly a new concept.

[tower912]

The coach gets tagged with it, but that doesn't mean there was anything he could have done about it.       Kobe and Shaq?     Randy Moss?    Terrell Owens?    Teams where teammates sleep with each other's wives?    LeBron and everyone? https://fadeawayworld.net/2019/04/13/the-lebron-curse-all-coaches-that-were-fired-while-coaching-lebron-james/

Sometimes, there are personality conflicts Mother Teresa couldn't resolve.   I still have a strong memory of Joey throwing up his arms in one of his first collegiate games because the second team all american did not pass him the ball in the corner, instead hitting a pull up 3.   

[Cheeks]

When locker rooms fall apart, the coach takes heat for it.  Not exactly a new concept.

This is not always the case.  There have been locker rooms that fell apart, the players cut or shipped off somewhere else and things improved dramatically.  Not exactly a new concept.

Terrell Owens
Dez Bryant
PacMan Jones
DeMarcus Cousins
Dwight Howard first go with the Lakers
Vin Baker
Isaiah Rider
Allen Iverson
Latrell Sprewell
Manny Ramirez
Carlos Zambrano
Milton Bradley
Jose Guillen (I can attest to this one)
Reggie Jackson

And on and on
Stephon Marbury

[Small Orange Soda]

This is not always the case.  There have been locker rooms that fell apart, the players cut or shipped off somewhere else and things improved dramatically.  Not exactly a new concept.

Terrell Owens
Dez Bryant
PacMan Jones
DeMarcus Cousins
Dwight Howard first go with the Lakers
Vin Baker
Isaiah Rider
Allen Iverson
Latrell Sprewell
Manny Ramirez
Carlos Zambrano
Milton Bradley
Jose Guillen (I can attest to this one)
Reggie Jackson

And on and on
Stephon Marbury

And then there's Joey Hauser, who threw his hands up in the air when the ball wasn't passed to him.  Surprised Izzo is taking such a risk.

[WhoaJoe2020]

When locker rooms fall apart, the coach takes heat for it.  Not exactly a new concept.

Which came first the chuckin or the ego?

 Joey knew who and what Markus was before he came to Marquette and Sam had coexisted in harmony with him for two years before Joey showed up. So what was the real deal?

Did Joey think he was going to come in and dictate the offense? No offense,  (pun intended), but he didn't possess the handle, the foot speed or the athleticism to create high percentage opportunities for himself and still he was allocated a generous amount of playing time and took a decent amount of shots for a freshman.

 So what was his grievance and what should Wojo have done to appease him? Did he want to take as many shots as Markus? Did he want to evenly divide up the shots between himself, Sam, and Markus? What about Sacar who was also a junior? I'm not certain but I would hazard a guess that Joey took about as many shots as Sacar did every game. What about playing time? I bet Joey also got about as much playing time as Sacar did. I read in another thread that Joey started like 95% of the games as a freshman. Not too bad. So again, what exactly were Joeys grievances and what more could Wojo have done to appease him? If he had done any more I would be calling for him to be fired for being a stooge.

It might be hard for some to accept, but Joey left for his own selfish reasons. Sam left for his own self serving reasons. I'm not going to totally trash either one because they left, and I'm not going to sit quietly while others accuse Wojo of mishandling them.

[willie warrior]

I know you don't want to here it but I'll say it anyway..... The whole ego management factor has been blown waaaaay out of proportion. Sams hip was shot, Markus was beat the eff up, Joey ran out of gas, and Gregs thumb injury meant we didn't have a serviceable second ball handler. Yes, Wojo whiffed on Cartoony. Those factors had a far greater impact on the late season meltdown than Wojos ignorance of child psychology......
IMHO of course.

Somehow, people religiously find excuses to defend Wojo rather than accept the obvious.

[Cheeks]

And then there's Joey Hauser, who threw his hands up in the air when the ball wasn't passed to him.  Surprised Izzo is taking such a risk.

Change of scenery can do a lot for some people, marriages, jobs ,etc.  again...human nature.

[Lennys Tap]

The coach gets tagged with it, but that doesn't mean there was anything he could have done about it.       Kobe and Shaq?     Randy Moss?    Terrell Owens?    Teams where teammates sleep with each other's wives?   

Kobe and Shaq won multiple NBA titles together.

Is Sam Randy Moss and Joey Terrell Owens or the other way around? OMG.

The only girlfriend stealing dissension I ever heard about at MU was between Doc Rivers and Marc Marotta.

[WhoaJoe2020]

Somehow, people religiously find excuses to defend Wojo rather than accept the obvious.

My dog ate my playbook is an excuse.

 Sams hip that required surgery, Gregs thumb that was injured so bad it benched him for the season, seeing Markus get injured on TV, Joey hitting the freshman wall, and no quality back up point guard to give Markus some rest. Those are valid reasons for a late season fade. I think it's called attrition.

Wojo didn't manage the players egos?
I don't even know what that is, but I do know it's weak. If you want to say he mismanaged players minutes and should have figured out a way to get Sam, Markus, and Joey more rest I would agree. Of course if he had Joey might have thrown a fit, what with his  sensitive ego and all. They probably would have lost a few more games as well, and we all know losses are totally unacceptable.

Notice I'm not saying Wojo deserves NO blame. He deserves blame for the things he could directly control that lead to the collapse. Injuries and players fragile egos don't fall into that category.

[WhiteTrash]

Do you really think MU fans are harder on coaches than most fans are on their team's coach?

To me, MU fans seem to be pretty forgiving to coaches while they're here. I think college fans in general tend to be pretty forgiving when compared to pro sports. And basketball fans tend to be more forgiving than football fans. And MU basketball doesn't seem to be an exception to that in my experience.

1,000% Agree. This is one hill I would die on. MUScoop and MU fans in general are very favorable to our coach compared to other major programs in the P6. If anyone thinks MU fans on this board or elsewhere would make our coach look to another job because we are too harsh, they are idiots. Go look at other fan boards and talk to other fans before judging MU fans. As a general rule, we are very good and supportive fans.

[MikeDeanesDarkGlasses]

Which came first the chuckin or the ego?

 Joey knew who and what Markus was before he came to Marquette and Sam had coexisted in harmony with him for two years before Joey showed up. So what was the real deal?

Did Joey think he was going to come in and dictate the offense? No offense,  (pun intended), but he didn't possess the handle, the foot speed or the athleticism to create high percentage opportunities for himself and still he was allocated a generous amount of playing time and took a decent amount of shots for a freshman.

 So what was his grievance and what should Wojo have done to appease him? Did he want to take as many shots as Markus? Did he want to evenly divide up the shots between himself, Sam, and Markus? What about Sacar who was also a junior? I'm not certain but I would hazard a guess that Joey took about as many shots as Sacar did every game. What about playing time? I bet Joey also got about as much playing time as Sacar did. I read in another thread that Joey started like 95% of the games as a freshman. Not too bad. So again, what exactly were Joeys grievances and what more could Wojo have done to appease him? If he had done any more I would be calling for him to be fired for being a stooge.

It might be hard for some to accept, but Joey left for his own selfish reasons. Sam left for his own self serving reasons. I'm not going to totally trash either one because they left, and I'm not going to sit quietly while others accuse Wojo of mishandling them.

Well, in all fairness, they both went to greener pastures with coaches that can get people into the NBA and abroad.

[WhoaJoe2020]

nm

[WhoaJoe2020]

Well, in all fairness, they both went to greener pastures with coaches that can get people into the NBA and abroad.

Forwards at the next level are one of two things, Big strong rebounders/shot blockers who are now also expected to shoot the three ball or long athletic stretch defenders with a good handle who also are expected to shoot the three ball. Neither Sam nor Joey fit those descriptions. Dekker and Henry both had more NBA ready skill sets and both struggled.

Will Sam eclipse his accomplishments at Marquette in one year at Virginia?
No, even if they win a game in the tournament.

Will Joey eclipse his accomplishments of one year at Marquette in three years at Michigan State? One would hope so.

Both players will have a full year in their teams program to acclimate and focus on strength and conditioning.

Virginia should get a rejuvenated Sam, not the hobbled Sam Marquette had at the end of last season

Michigan State should get a more physically and emotionally mature Joey, not the physically and emotionally fragile Joey Marquette had at the end of last season.

If Izzo and Bennett can't get solid numbers from what are basically a totally fresh four star Jr. and a totally fresh and healthy seasoned fifth year Sr. then they should both hang it up.

[Silkk the Shaka]

"Long-time lurker" WhoaJoe2020 just read the board passively for a good long time and now all of a sudden has manic diarrhea of the keyboard repeating Wojo-defending talking points ad nauseam. Interesting!

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

"Long-time lurker" WhoaJoe2020 just read the board passively for a good long time and now all of a sudden has manic diarrhea of the keyboard repeating Wojo-defending talking points ad nauseam. Interesting!

Yeah I'm trying to figure out who he is as well.  I'm pretty sure it's someone we know and love, I just don't know who.

[Lennys Tap]

I guess in a round about way that was the point I was trying to make.

I personally don't think there are ANY extreme ProJos who do nothing but sing his praises.

I also don't believe there are MANY extreme NoJos who do nothing but trash him. But it seems they do exist, and they become extremely active after a tough loss, trashing not only Wojo but often individual players by name.

I regret not making this distinction more apparent in my original post but that was the point I was trying to make.

If I was going to label myself, I too would put myself in the so-so jo camp.

There are definitely extreme projos. They are the "all in on Wojo" crew. Chico (the manic side of your split personality) is the best example.

Then there are the basic projos. Lean hard in his direction but aren't 100% all in/convinced - Tower, MU82 and others.

The so-so jos are next. They see equal parts good and bad and are keeping their powder dry - Fluffy, myself and others.

Then the basic nojos. They've seen enough to think he's not the one but still hope he'll prove them wrong - Goose, 4ever, etc.

Then the extreme nojos. Think he already should have been fired. Hold no hope for him whatsoever - maybe PRN, surely others.

You and your alter ego are extreme projos. You view that as reasonable (naturally), but your view is no less skewed than the extreme nojos (or anyone else's). Period.

[Goose]

Lenny

Well stated. You have me the right group.

[1SE]

I think we've seeing a bit of cooling in both directions. Wojo has done enough to make some of the people who were more nojo (myself included) concede that there are some positives - we're not a complete dumpster fire.

But, he also hasn't lived up to the lofty expectations of people who were more projo (I'm thinking tower here - who is significantly more reserved about Wojo this year than he has been). I think these people expected more progression, but in year 6 we're basically still spinning wheels as a team that's a bad L or two away from the bubble.

In other words, most have trended toward the middle - which is exactly who Wojo is - "Mr. C+/B-"

[StillAWarrior]

There are definitely extreme projos. They are the "all in on Wojo" crew. Chico (the manic side of your split personality) is the best example.

Then there are the basic projos. Lean hard in his direction but aren't 100% all in/convinced - Tower, MU82 and others.

The so-so jos are next. They see equal parts good and bad and are keeping their powder dry - Fluffy, myself and others.

Then the basic nojos. They've seen enough to think he's not the one but still hope he'll prove them wrong - Goose, 4ever, etc.

Then the extreme nojos. Think he already should have been fired. Hold no hope for him whatsoever - maybe PRN, surely others.

You and your alter ego are extreme projos. You view that as reasonable (naturally), but your view is no less skewed than the extreme nojos (or anyone else's). Period.

This is just begging for a thread/poll of its own to see how people self-identify. 

[Dr. Blackheart]

This is just begging for a thread/poll of its own to see how people self-identify.

Just be sure to repeat it after every half played.

[lurch91]

I think these people expected more progression, but in year 6 we're basically still spinning wheels as a team that's a bad L or two away from the bubble.

That's funny, because weren't we dubbed Team Bubble Watch almost every year under Buzz?

[Galway Eagle]

That's funny, because weren't we dubbed Team Bubble Watch almost every year under Buzz?

50% of the years iirc