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Author Topic: Did you guys ever think?  (Read 10200 times)

Cheeks

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #150 on: December 06, 2019, 08:12:55 AM »
Brother Cheeks:

As a "more seasoned" Warrior fan, I could not disagree with you more. I'll concede that it is time to move away from Al (and stoutly agree with Brother Goose on this matter) but to suggest that we cannot be a blue blood again is absurd on its face.

Your comment is akin to looking to the New York Yankees and saying an aspiration goal of having a team like they did in the 1950s is absurd. The notion that the New York Yankees will be World Champions every year but three probably is absurd but the notion that they commit to the best farm system, best training and development, best coaches and best Big League players is not. That, my brother, is the goal I would hope Marquette would aim for in college basketball.

Second, for you young whippersnappers, it was not all seashells and balloons during the McGuire era either. We did not annually win an NCAA title. There was a team called U-C-L-A that did. Fate, bad luck and guys now known as Abdul-Jabbar and Bill Walton were a major catalyst in UCLA's success. But we never stopped trying and we finally climbed the mountain in 1977.

Third, I am so tired of this crap that Marquette can't compete because of the cold weather, the Power 5 or the emergence of other nearby basketball powers that I could scream. If you believe this nonsense, I suggest you turn in your sweater vest, move to College Station and support the idiot who first openly promulgated that theory. What has football got to do with Duke's, North Carolina's or Maryland's success? Not a damn thing!

I recall another time when it was said the Green Bay Packers were irrelevant, that certain star players did not want to play in Green Bay and that the franchise's aspirational goal of being what they were in the 1960s was absurd. Something about who would want to play in Green Bay in December? Yeah, there were not massive amounts of new Lombardis in the trophy case in Green Bay, but the team is aspiring to get back to what it once was.

Finally, we went 40 years without a return to excellence because of a confluence of factors that had nothing to do with macro factors in basketball. We made a bad decision on hiring Al's replacement. We then hired a string of coaches who were not ready for prime time (yet, in one case) or coaches we did not keep. We tended to shoot ourselves in the foot until someone woke up and realized how important basketball was to university development.

Maybe we do not get a Top 15 every year, but we need consistency and we need to strive to get there. To Wojo's credit, that's what he's working toward and I hope he gets there.

I think using pro sports as a comparison is simply wrong.  It is very difficult for pro sports teams to not automatically cycle to the top eventually because there are limited teams (talent has to go somewhere), there is a draft forcing players to come to them every year whether they want to or not.  College sports there are hundreds of options, and talent isn’t forced to come to your school. 
"The desire to be right all the time, push buttons, get the last word in, etc.  Just not good...   UGH. Embarrassing."

MU82

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #151 on: December 06, 2019, 08:57:57 AM »
College sports there are hundreds of options, and talent isn’t forced to come to your school.

Technically true, but top talent will not consider hundreds of teams. Top talent ain't going to Grambling and Cornell and Kent State. Sure, it's great when a kid like Curry comes out of nowhere to be a stud for Davidson (or, more recently, Ja/Murray State), but that's a huge anamoly.

Nope, hundreds of teams are not in play for top talent. And top-top-top talent usually will not even consider several dozen teams.

I think dgies is saying he wants us to be one of the dozen or so basketball powers that top talent regularly considers -- and fairly regularly chooses.

Sure, every season a few teams emerge despite not being among the top dozen programs at recruiting. But that's a more difficult path -- you might even say a more crapshooty one.

Like dgies, I'd like to be one of those top dozen. But nice guy that I am, I'd happily accept Marquette being one of the top 2 dozen and take our chances!
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Small Orange Soda

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #152 on: December 06, 2019, 09:07:40 AM »
Hate to agree with this guy but this is the big reason for most arguments on here

I think most people believe this program can do better than it has thus far under Wojo while acknowledging we won't reach the Al days again.

Cheeks

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #153 on: December 06, 2019, 09:08:25 AM »
Technically true, but top talent will not consider hundreds of teams. Top talent ain't going to Grambling and Cornell and Kent State. Sure, it's great when a kid like Curry comes out of nowhere to be a stud for Davidson (or, more recently, Ja/Murray State), but that's a huge anamoly.

Nope, hundreds of teams are not in play for top talent. And top-top-top talent usually will not even consider several dozen teams.

I think dgies is saying he wants us to be one of the dozen or so basketball powers that top talent regularly considers -- and fairly regularly chooses.

Sure, every season a few teams emerge despite not being among the top dozen programs at recruiting. But that's a more difficult path -- you might even say a more crapshooty one.

Like dgies, I'd like to be one of those top dozen. But nice guy that I am, I'd happily accept Marquette being one of the top 2 dozen and take our chances!

Not only technically true, still true.  When you have NBA or NFL players coming from schools like Navy, Colgate, Murray State, etc...the list gets into the 100's.  Grambling State has had plenty of NFL players over the years.   Schools like Hofstra, D2 schools, etc.  The number of schools that have put players into the pros is large.  May not be "top talent" in terms of how they were rated, but very good players that went on to play in the pros.

But I'll concede the point that it doesn't happen often, you still have 75 to 100 solid college basketball teams...the P5 conferences alone account for about 60 schools.  Whereas the NBA has 30 teams.  My point, which I think you know is correct, is that even badly managed or coached pro teams are gifted talent options every year....some talented players have to come there way through the draft.  And due to free agency and roster / team limitations, other good players have to land somewhere as they can't all go to a handful of teams.  The Greek freak...Milwaukee was a dud for decades in hoops but they took him in the draft.  Is he going to Milwaukee without the draft....uhm...highly unlikely. 

That option doesn't exist in college sports.  You also have transfers which you don't have in pro sports.  You are under contract, you have to stay unless you are cut.  Not the case in college sports where a coach looks at you wrong these days and players leave.

Comparing college sports to the Yankees, Packers, Cavaliers or any other pro team with how talent and limited spaces exist is not an appropriate comparison. 
« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 09:11:21 AM by Cheeks »
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Cheeks

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #154 on: December 06, 2019, 09:15:32 AM »
I think most people believe this program can do better than it has thus far under Wojo while acknowledging we won't reach the Al days again.

Sure, under the art of the possible, everything on the planet, could do better.  Yes, everyone knows this.  Bill Bellicheck could be doing better.  We could also do a lot worse.

Take a look at Arkansas and Tennessee football....they sure thought things were going to keep chugging along.  UCLA football made the big move, so far been a disaster and they are worse...maybe that changes.  It's easy to say we can do better because it is a universal truth.  The hard part is defining what that is and who the hell you are bringing in that is going to get you there...takes two to tango and there aren't many out there pining to come to Milwaukee for the longhaul to do it.  As a reminder, Al wanted out several times and MU blocked him.
"The desire to be right all the time, push buttons, get the last word in, etc.  Just not good...   UGH. Embarrassing."

tower912

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #155 on: December 06, 2019, 09:24:27 AM »
Remember when everyone complained about Crean's inability to recruit bigs?     You can't just go down to the corner Walgreen's and find talented 6'10 guys.      Likewise, the assumption by some is that there is an infinite supply of coaches better than Wojo beating down the doors to come to MU.     There aren't.    There are literally 300 programs out there who think there coach can be improved upon.    It just isn't so.   

I still think Wojo has upside.    I think this latest recruiting class is huge.   But suppose Wojo moves on (far more likely) or is fired.    There are no guarantees.   Sometimes the choices are between two experienced coaches of middling achievement and on highly thought of assistant.      And sometimes the dream coach calls back after the job has been filled.   
« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 10:38:54 AM by tower912 »
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

Cheeks

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #156 on: December 06, 2019, 09:31:21 AM »
Remember when everyone complained about Crean's inability to recruit bigs?     You can't just go down to the corner Walgreen's and find talented 6'10 guys.      Likewise, the assumption by some is that there is an infinite supply of coaches better than Wojo beating down the doors to come to MU.     There aren't.    There are literally 300 programs out there who think there coach can be improved upon.    It just isn't so.   

I still think Wojo has upside.    I think this latest recruiting class is huge.   But suppose Wojo moves on (far more likely) or moves on.    There are no guarantees.   Sometimes the choices are between two experienced coaches of middling achievement and on highly thought of assistant.      And sometimes the dream coach calls back after the job has been filled.

Yup...been saying literally these same words for years.
"The desire to be right all the time, push buttons, get the last word in, etc.  Just not good...   UGH. Embarrassing."

Small Orange Soda

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #157 on: December 06, 2019, 09:39:05 AM »
Sure, under the art of the possible, everything on the planet, could do better.  Yes, everyone knows this.  Bill Bellicheck could be doing better.  We could also do a lot worse.

Take a look at Arkansas and Tennessee football....they sure thought things were going to keep chugging along.  UCLA football made the big move, so far been a disaster and they are worse...maybe that changes.  It's easy to say we can do better because it is a universal truth.  The hard part is defining what that is and who the hell you are bringing in that is going to get you there...takes two to tango and there aren't many out there pining to come to Milwaukee for the longhaul to do it.  As a reminder, Al wanted out several times and MU blocked him.

It's easy to say we can do better because we have.

Galway Eagle

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #158 on: December 06, 2019, 09:47:01 AM »
It's easy to say we can do better because we have.

Saying we can do better is one thing. I'm with you on that. But things like needing top 15 classes every year. Is setting up ridiculous expectations.
“More the knowledge, lesser the ego. Lesser the knowledge, more the ego.” Albert Einstein a note for some posters

Small Orange Soda

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #159 on: December 06, 2019, 09:55:04 AM »
Saying we can do better is one thing. I'm with you on that. But things like needing top 15 classes every year. Is setting up ridiculous expectations.

Agree completely, which I why I said it was unrealistic as well.

And my point isn't Wojo has underachieved so let's find someone better.  My point is that's he's underachieved, so what needs to happen to make this program better?  As others who have a higher opinion of Wojo than I do have said, he's yet to make a team more than the sum of its parts.  Best remedy to me would be improving the parts then. 

MU82

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #160 on: December 06, 2019, 10:14:15 AM »
Not only technically true, still true.  When you have future NBA or NFL players coming from schools like Navy, Colgate, Murray State, etc...the list gets into the 100's.  Grambling State has had plenty of NFL players over the years.   Schools like Hofstra, D2 schools, etc.  The number of schools that have put players into the pros is large.  May not be "top talent" in terms of how they were rated, but very good players that went on to play in the pros.

But I'll concede the point that it doesn't happen often, you still have 75 to 100 solid college basketball teams...the P5 conferences alone account for about 60 schools.  Whereas the NBA has 30 teams.  My point, which I think you know is correct, is that even badly managed or coached pro teams are gifted talent options every year....some talented players have to come there way through the draft.  And due to free agency and roster / team limitations, other good players have to land somewhere as they can't all go to a handful of teams.  The Greek freak...Milwaukee was a dud for decades in hoops but they took him in the draft.  Is he going to Milwaukee without the draft....uhm...highly unlikely. 

That option doesn't exist in college sports.  You also have transfers which you don't have in pro sports.  You are under contract, you have to stay unless you are cut.  Not the case in college sports where a coach looks at you wrong these days and players leave.

Comparing college sports to the Yankees, Packers, Cavaliers or any other pro team with how talent and limited spaces exist is not an appropriate comparison.

Not to speak for dgies, but I don't think he was making a direct correlation between colleges and pros. He was just using them as examples of one-time dynasties that rose from the ashes to be great (or at least highly respected) again. He could have cited UCLA basketball under Harrick, Alabama football under Saban, USC football under Carroll, etc.

There is a reason why most of the same schools have been dominating college basketball for years -- they are able to attract top talent year after year after year. dgies wants us to be one of those schools, as do I.

Is getting top 15 talent year after year after year realistic for Marquette? Maybe not. But getting it 3 out of 5 years, and good classes the other years -- enough to consistently be a top program -- that might be realistic. Here's hoping!
"Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma – which is living with the results of other people's thinking."

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Elonsmusk

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #161 on: December 06, 2019, 10:23:31 AM »
Agreed, Wojo's class is a good start.  We're losing arguably the greatest scorer in MU history though, as well as Sacar, so that will need to be offset.  Hopefully another high quality class will follow soon after, but getting Karim Mane in next year's class would be a massive boon.

No doubt this class is off to a great start, but to your point - getting a guard as highly regarded as Karim Mane would take it to another level.  Next year's team will need a guy who can create a shot on their own or for others - Dawson might be that skilled, but adding a guy like Mane changes the game.


dgies9156

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #162 on: December 06, 2019, 10:26:45 AM »
Not to speak for dgies, but I don't think he was making a direct correlation between colleges and pros. He was just using them as examples of one-time dynasties that rose from the ashes to be great (or at least highly respected) again. He could have cited UCLA basketball under Harrick, Alabama football under Saban, USC football under Carroll, etc.

There is a reason why most of the same schools have been dominating college basketball for years -- they are able to attract top talent year after year after year. dgies wants us to be one of those schools, as do I.

Is getting top 15 talent year after year after year realistic for Marquette? Maybe not. But getting it 3 out of 5 years, and good classes the other years -- enough to consistently be a top program -- that might be realistic. Here's hoping!

Brother MU:

Nicely said. There is a fundamental difference between talent acquisition in college and professional ranks.  I just want us to be the BEST. Period.

tower912

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #163 on: December 06, 2019, 11:52:33 AM »
Can this please get some love?

If hilarious Scoop One Liners was a NCAA Bracket, I'd rank this a solidly overrated five seed.
Thank you.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

It is better to be fearless and cheerful than cheerless and fearful.

Miss Katie’s

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #164 on: December 06, 2019, 12:08:12 PM »
Can this please get some love?

If hilarious Scoop One Liners was a NCAA Bracket, I'd rank this a solidly overrated five seed.

Somebody please make this happen. 

Cheeks

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #165 on: December 06, 2019, 01:48:52 PM »
It's easy to say we can do better because we have.

With different rules, different standards, a different conference.....all in the past.

Defining doing better isn’t 100% on the court, but totality of the program.  This irks some people, especially the just win folks, but they aren’t running the university or setting the guardrails for the program.  Thus comparing one regime to another without that lens is not wholly seeing the entire picture.
"The desire to be right all the time, push buttons, get the last word in, etc.  Just not good...   UGH. Embarrassing."

Small Orange Soda

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #166 on: December 06, 2019, 02:09:14 PM »
With different rules, different standards, a different conference.....all in the past.

Defining doing better isn’t 100% on the court, but totality of the program.  This irks some people, especially the just win folks, but they aren’t running the university or setting the guardrails for the program.  Thus comparing one regime to another without that lens is not wholly seeing the entire picture.

it doesn't irk anyone, it's just something you bring up to distract from Wojo underachieving on the court.

MU82

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #167 on: December 06, 2019, 02:31:29 PM »
it doesn't irk anyone, it's just something you bring up to distract from Wojo underachieving on the court.

I believe it was either TAMU or brewski (or both) who used KenPom and some of the fancy schmancy modern metrics that today's groovy kids love to show that, actually, Wojo has almost exactly met expectations every season.

While he hasn't "outperformed," which has been disappointing to many, he also hasn't "underperformed."

Hopefully one or both of them will check in to say whether or not I have that correct.
"Your time is limited, so don't waste it living someone else's life. Don't be trapped by dogma – which is living with the results of other people's thinking."

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BallBoy

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #168 on: December 06, 2019, 02:31:44 PM »
Remember when everyone complained about Crean's inability to recruit bigs?     You can't just go down to the corner Walgreen's and find talented 6'10 guys.      Likewise, the assumption by some is that there is an infinite supply of coaches better than Wojo beating down the doors to come to MU.     There aren't.    There are literally 300 programs out there who think there coach can be improved upon.    It just isn't so.   

I still think Wojo has upside.    I think this latest recruiting class is huge.   But suppose Wojo moves on (far more likely) or is fired.    There are no guarantees.   Sometimes the choices are between two experienced coaches of middling achievement and on highly thought of assistant.      And sometimes the dream coach calls back after the job has been filled.

When looking at the programs that are that conversation, only a few have transitioned that legacy between coaches like UK, UNC, Kansas. Duke hasn’t done that yet. Indiana was the Bob Knight show. MU was Al. Syracuse is Boheim. Nova is Jay Wright. With all of those coaches, they were at their schools for a long time and took them a long time to win a Natty. A lot of the coaches who win early or were flash in the pans had early success before flaming out. See Crean, Mike Davis, etc.

My desire is to have a coach who may not have immediate success but is building a program for the longer term. I would love for a coach to be at Marquette for 20yrs and build upon success.  I look at Wojo and I see upside, room to grow but a solid foundation of skills. He might not have had immediate success but that is probably better than immediate. Buzz had immediate and he left in 6 years. Crean made nine but many said his foot was out the door after the final four.

Billy Hoyle

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #169 on: December 06, 2019, 02:34:07 PM »
Not to speak for dgies, but I don't think he was making a direct correlation between colleges and pros. He was just using them as examples of one-time dynasties that rose from the ashes to be great (or at least highly respected) again. He could have cited UCLA basketball under Harrick, Alabama football under Saban, USC football under Carroll, etc.

There is a reason why most of the same schools have been dominating college basketball for years -- they are able to attract top talent year after year after year. dgies wants us to be one of those schools, as do I.

Is getting top 15 talent year after year after year realistic for Marquette? Maybe not. But getting it 3 out of 5 years, and good classes the other years -- enough to consistently be a top program -- that might be realistic. Here's hoping!

getting "top 15" talent doesn't always mean a program is going to make a jump.  Look at how many of these top kids become busts.  When you're not a "blue blood" recruiting takes the ability to identify potential and a significant amount of luck. What if DePaul doesn't pass on Wade because of his grades, or Crean doesn't fight the administration to get him here?  What if Sean Miller doesn't say 'he gives up more than he scores' in regards to Markus?  What if Robert Jackson isn't dumped by Miss State, or what if there's no local kid with a preexisting relationship with Vander to encourage him to flip to MU?

I really don't care about recruiting anymore because 1) it's kind of creepy to live and die by the college decisions of an 18-year-old and/ B) nothing is guaranteed when they get to college.  Dameon Mason was going to be a solid replacement for Wade and would be better than Shannon Brown. Everyone here was pleading with Joey to come to MU and he was going to get us back to the Final Four. Harry Froling and Luke Fischer were game changers as big man transfers. The more important thing is getting coaches who can develop talent. Look at some of the Final Four teams over the past 15 years - Texas Tech, Butler (2x), VCU, George Mason, Loyola. It - and other schools that have had studs who weren't highly rated that made runs (Wichita State, Murray State) shows that you don't have to have a "top 15" class to be successful.
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MU82

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #170 on: December 06, 2019, 02:40:02 PM »
When looking at the programs that are that conversation, only a few have transitioned that legacy between coaches like UK, UNC, Kansas. Duke hasn’t done that yet. Indiana was the Bob Knight show. MU was Al. Syracuse is Boheim. Nova is Jay Wright. With all of those coaches, they were at their schools for a long time and took them a long time to win a Natty. A lot of the coaches who win early or were flash in the pans had early success before flaming out. See Crean, Mike Davis, etc.

My desire is to have a coach who may not have immediate success but is building a program for the longer term. I would love for a coach to be at Marquette for 20yrs and build upon success.  I look at Wojo and I see upside, room to grow but a solid foundation of skills. He might not have had immediate success but that is probably better than immediate. Buzz had immediate and he left in 6 years. Crean made nine but many said his foot was out the door after the final four.

Good comment.

Indeed, the success of K at Duke and Knight at Indiana supports dgies' comment thesis quite well. Duke under Vic Bubas and Indiana under Branch McCracken were considered outstanding programs. But both programs faltered until K and Knight arrived at their respective destinations to restore them to greatness -- or even to exceed their previous greatness. Now Indiana is searching for the next one to do so while K is still doing his thing at Duke.

Similar for Wright. Nova had been a very a good program -- including a champion -- under Rollie Massimino. But the program swooned late in Massimino's time there, Steve Lappas couldn't quite bring it back to glory and it took Wright a while to bring it to championship level.
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Bad_Reporter

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #171 on: December 06, 2019, 02:43:48 PM »
To Cheeks, and Tower,

What are your thoughts on Wojo having an All American on his roster currently, and his success on the court?   A lot of love for the incoming recruiting class (I understand completely) but Wojo also has a current player who many argue is a top 5-10 player all time at MU.

If Dawson isn’t in the discussion when his career is over at MU as a top 10 player All time, how do you predict wojos seasons are going to go?

I think Wojo needs a lot more then Dawson, (even though it’s a good start) with his coaching capabilities

Cheeks

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #172 on: December 06, 2019, 02:48:48 PM »
Not to speak for dgies, but I don't think he was making a direct correlation between colleges and pros. He was just using them as examples of one-time dynasties that rose from the ashes to be great (or at least highly respected) again. He could have cited UCLA basketball under Harrick, Alabama football under Saban, USC football under Carroll, etc.

There is a reason why most of the same schools have been dominating college basketball for years -- they are able to attract top talent year after year after year. dgies wants us to be one of those schools, as do I.

Is getting top 15 talent year after year after year realistic for Marquette? Maybe not. But getting it 3 out of 5 years, and good classes the other years -- enough to consistently be a top program -- that might be realistic. Here's hoping!

Ok, but Harrick’s program cheated and was busted.  Carroll’s program cheated and was busted.  Saban...

We all want to be the best, but I don’t want to commit those offenses in the process. 

Fundamentally I get it...it makes me wonder what exactly has to be done to get there and what one has to turn a blind eye to for it to happen.
"The desire to be right all the time, push buttons, get the last word in, etc.  Just not good...   UGH. Embarrassing."

Frenns Liquor Depot

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #173 on: December 06, 2019, 02:49:13 PM »
When looking at the programs that are that conversation, only a few have transitioned that legacy between coaches like UK, UNC, Kansas. Duke hasn’t done that yet. Indiana was the Bob Knight show. MU was Al. Syracuse is Boheim. Nova is Jay Wright. With all of those coaches, they were at their schools for a long time and took them a long time to win a Natty. A lot of the coaches who win early or were flash in the pans had early success before flaming out. See Crean, Mike Davis, etc.

My desire is to have a coach who may not have immediate success but is building a program for the longer term. I would love for a coach to be at Marquette for 20yrs and build upon success.  I look at Wojo and I see upside, room to grow but a solid foundation of skills. He might not have had immediate success but that is probably better than immediate. Buzz had immediate and he left in 6 years. Crean made nine but many said his foot was out the door after the final four.

I dont think your conclusion is accurate.  For example Boeheim went S16, 1 win, S16, S16 to start his career.  Izzo went NIT, NIT, S16, FF Champion.  Knight? - NIT, FF, No Tourney, Elite 8, Champ, No tourney.

Early success is not an indicator--sustained success sure is.

dgies9156

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Re: Did you guys ever think?
« Reply #174 on: December 06, 2019, 02:51:28 PM »
Some (hopefully) final thoughts of mine:

1) Success is measured two ways: Wins and losses and how deep we get into the NCAAs. Look, they'll be years where we get the booby prize -- last year being a prime example. We were bounced in 1971, 1973 and 1975 very quickly. Only twice did we make it to the Final Four in the Golden Era of MU basketball. But we were consistently good, sold out the MECCA and our team did wonderful things for the university.

2) Recruiting is only half the battle: Buzz brought in some heavyweights but I always questioned whether he could develop talent. Coach McGuire and his team did and I think Wojo is headed in this direction. The Brother who raised questions about 18-year-old decisions is spot on. Another issue is kids who play in places like Stevens Point or Rice Lake, who only get comparable talent when they play AAU ball. You sometimes wonder whether they're adequate talent in a  sub-optimal league.

I'm the first to admit the world is different than it was between 1964 and 1977. But I'll also acknowledge that good organizations adapt. For a long time, I don't think we did and we're paying the price. We have the same number of Final Four appearances since 2000 as Loyola of Chicago, forgodssake, and fewer than Butler or that disgusting rodent to the west.

Still optimistic here that Coach Wojo will get us there and he'll learn from his mistakes. Just wish we weren't his test platform. I'll admit that had we hired Cuonzo Martin or Ben Howland, both cast-offs from elsewhere, our upward trajectory would be faster but the apogee of our orbit would be lower and we'd be looking again sooner. Low earth orbit does not excite me!!!! I think that was the core of the hiring decision on Coach Wojo.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2019, 02:53:40 PM by dgies9156 »