Dawson

[BCHoopster]

So for the people who have seen Dawson play, how does Wojo use him?  He sure does not look like a post up player?

[tower912]

He doesn't need to be.  One of the 4 out.  Secondary basket defender, probably from the weak side.   

[wadesworld]

Similar to how he used Hank, but hopefully with more help around him.

[Silent Verbal]

Similar to how he used Hank, but hopefully with more help around him.

Henry’s team had five players average double figures.  I’d be surprised if Dawson has that much help consistently next year.

[TAMU, Knower of Ball]

Henry’s team had five players average double figures.  I’d be surprised if Dawson has that much help consistently next year.

Gotta understand what you are looking at. Marquette only ran a 7 man rotation that season with a top 100 tempo. Someone has to put points on the board, doesn't mean that the help is good.

[Lennys Tap]

Similar to how he used Hank, but hopefully with more help around him.

If he's used like Henry I hope Dawson makes more than 28.8% of his 3s.

[Shooter McGavin]

Amen, to that.^^^^

[wadesworld]

If he's used like Henry I hope Dawson makes more than 28.8% of his 3s.

Regardless of how he’s used I hope he makes more than 28.8% of his 3s.

But if he’s only taking 3 three point attempts per game, shooting it at a 28.8% clip won’t be the end of the world.

[Lennys Tap]

Regardless of how he’s used I hope he makes more than 28.8% of his 3s.

But if he’s only taking 3 three point attempts per game, shooting it at a 28.8% clip won’t be the end of the world.

IIRC, 6 players took 70 or more 3s that year. Henry took the second most on the team (102, or 3.2 per game) and shot the lowest % (not close) on the team. It may not be "the end of the world" to have your worst shooter/best rebounder on the perimeter jacking at that rate, but how it makes sense (other than sacrificing team success to showcase Henry) is beyond me.

[Galway Eagle]

IIRC, 6 players took 70 or more 3s that year. Henry took the second most on the team (102, or 3.2 per game) and shot the lowest % (not close) on the team. It may not be "the end of the world" to have your worst shooter/best rebounder on the perimeter jacking at that rate, but how it makes sense (other than sacrificing team success to showcase Henry) is beyond me.

This. I get Henry probably hates MU to side with his brother but man he needs to step back and realize he was giving free reign the likes of which Markus doesn't even get.

[Warrior1969]

Henry had more freedom then Markus??????

[wadesworld]

Anybody who considers 3.2 three point attempts per game as somebody "on the perimeter jacking" doesn't understand how modern basketball works.

The options were Luke sits on the bench while Henry sits in the post so that he can get...14? rebounds instead of 10?  And Luke can get 0 rebounds sitting on the bench.  Or Luke "jacks" perimeter jumpers (at the rate of 3 per game) while Henry gets 14? rebounds per game instead of 10.  Or Henry "jacks" 3 three point attempts per game while getting 10 rebounds per game and Luke works in the post.

I know which one I'd take given the roster.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Henry's problem wasn't that he took 3.2 thee pointers per game.  His problem is that he took 15.7 overall shots per game while having an EFG under .500.  He wasn't efficient.  He shot the ball too often with too many bad shots.  Which is something eerily similar to Markus last year. 

[Lennys Tap]

Anybody who considers 3.2 three point attempts per game as somebody "on the perimeter jacking" doesn't understand how modern basketball works.

You're right, I guess I don't understand "modern basketball", at least your version. If I have a 6'10" guy who is a great rebounder, efficient offensive player from 15' on in, draws fouls, makes free throws but is my worst outside shooter he's not taking the second most 3 point shots for my team.

[Herman Cain]

You're right, I guess I don't understand "modern basketball", at least your version. If I have a 6'10" guy who is a great rebounder, efficient offensive player from 15' on in, draws fouls, makes free throws but is my worst outside shooter he's not taking the second most 3 point shots for my team.

The Quid Pro Quo, was that Henry agreed to a one/two year rental provided MU allowed him to use the team to showcase his potential as a stretch 4. Both sides lived up to the deal. Henry became a first rounder in the NBA and MU got 20 wins so it all worked out.

I think if Henry played a more conventional role for the skills you describe above , he would have been a 22 and 12 type player and we might have won a couple more games.  But that wasn't the deal going in.

Henry led to Markus which has now led to Dawson. Wojo is selling not only playing time, but also ball dominance.  Not a bad recruiting strategy for MU and top level players . We signed Dawson this year and got nosed out at the finish line by UNC for RJ.  We are now in a position to tell Karim, come here work on your passing skills for a year feeding Dawson .

The secret sauce, of course, is taking these players and getting NCAA tournament success. That requires a different set of coaching skills.

[Cheeks]

The Quid Pro Quo, was that Henry agreed to a one/two year rental provided MU allowed him to use the team to showcase his potential as a stretch 4. Both sides lived up to the deal. Henry became a first rounder in the NBA and MU got 20 wins so it all worked out.

I think if Henry played a more conventional role for the skills you describe above , he would have been a 22 and 12 type player and we might have won a couple more games.  But that wasn't the deal going in.

Henry led to Markus which has now led to Dawson. Wojo is selling not only playing time, but also ball dominance.  Not a bad recruiting strategy for MU and top level players . We signed Dawson this year and got nosed out at the finish line by UNC for RJ.  We are now in a position to tell Karim, come here work on your passing skills for a year feeding Dawson .

The secret sauce, of course, is taking these players and getting NCAA tournament success. That requires a different set of coaching skills.

Careful, latin got another thread shut down. Penny Hardaway's Quid Pro Quo to pay for a kid to come play for him in high school knowing full well behind the scenes he was also likely to replace Tubby Smith.  But for some reason the Quid Pro Quo comments got a thread shut down because some people panic and don't understand latin apparently.

[wadesworld]

You're right, I guess I don't understand "modern basketball", at least your version. If I have a 6'10" guy who is a great rebounder, efficient offensive player from 15' on in, draws fouls, makes free throws but is my worst outside shooter he's not taking the second most 3 point shots for my team.

Giannis shot 3 three pointers per game last season at a 25.6% three point clip.  Why would the Bucks want their 7 footer who is a great rebounder, efficient offensive player from 15' on in, draws fouls, makes free throws (at least he did last year), and worst outside shooter jacking up 3 three pointers a game?  (Fine, second worst.  Bonzie Colson played 8 games and had a worse 3 point shooting percentage.)  I mean, the guy must suck.

Wait, he was the MVP.

3 three point attempts per game is not "jacking up bad shots."  It's just not.

[lawdog77]

Henry's problem wasn't that he took 3.2 thee pointers per game.  His problem is that he took 15.7 overall shots per game while having an EFG under .500.  He wasn't efficient.  He shot the ball too often with too many bad shots.  Which is something eerily similar to Markus last year.

Markus efg% was 52% last year.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Markus efg% was 52% last year.

Which isn't great.

[Silkk the Shaka]

Which isn't great.

I beg to differ. Markus' 2020 eFG% Prior to wrist injury + Hauser mutiny: 54.7%

This was excellent / highly efficient for his Shot% (36.7%). Closest 2019 high major comps (eFG% / Shot%):

RJ Barrett: 50.6% / 33%
Jarrett Culver: 50.5% / 32.4%
Ethan Happ: 53% / 31%
Myles Powell: 54.2% / 31.4%

Post wrist injury + Hauser mutiny: 43.2% eFG%

Basically the Hausers were salty that they had a guy shooting at a more efficient clip than 2 lotto picks, a 2nd team AA, and a 1st team all-BE, and they tanked a 23-4 season + left him to twist in the wind for his senior year they were building several years towards.

Eff 'em.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

I beg to differ. Markus' 2020 eFG% Prior to wrist injury + Hauser mutiny: 54.7%

This was excellent / highly efficient for his Shot% (36.7%). Closest 2019 high major comps (eFG% / Shot%):

RJ Barrett: 50.6% / 33%
Jarrett Culver: 50.5% / 32.4%
Ethan Happ: 53% / 31%
Myles Powell: 54.2% / 31.4%

Post wrist injury + Hauser mutiny: 43.2% eFG%

Basically the Hausers were salty that they had a guy shooting at a more efficient clip than 2 lotto picks, a 2nd team AA, and a 1st team all-BE, and they tanked a 23-4 season + left him to twist in the wind for his senior year they were building several years towards.

Eff 'em.

This is good context.  Thank you.

[skianth16]

The Quid Pro Quo, was that Henry agreed to a one/two year rental provided MU allowed him to use the team to showcase his potential as a stretch 4. Both sides lived up to the deal. Henry became a first rounder in the NBA and MU got 20 wins so it all worked out.

I think if Henry played a more conventional role for the skills you describe above , he would have been a 22 and 12 type player and we might have won a couple more games.  But that wasn't the deal going in.

Henry led to Markus which has now led to Dawson. Wojo is selling not only playing time, but also ball dominance.  Not a bad recruiting strategy for MU and top level players . We signed Dawson this year and got nosed out at the finish line by UNC for RJ.  We are now in a position to tell Karim, come here work on your passing skills for a year feeding Dawson .

The secret sauce, of course, is taking these players and getting NCAA tournament success. That requires a different set of coaching skills.

So you see Garcia as a one and done? I know he's a highly ranked guy, but I haven't seen much about him as an NBA prospect yet. Is he getting attention from NBA scouts already?

[Litehouse]

So you see Garcia as a one and done? I know he's a highly ranked guy, but I haven't seen much about him as an NBA prospect yet. Is he getting attention from NBA scouts already?

I read that as Mane being one and done.

[Vander Blue Man Group]

I read that as Mane being one and done.

Yep

[Lennys Tap]

Giannis shot 3 three pointers per game last season at a 25.6% three point clip.  Why would the Bucks want their 7 footer who is a great rebounder, efficient offensive player from 15' on in, draws fouls, makes free throws (at least he did last year), and worst outside shooter jacking up 3 three pointers a game?  (Fine, second worst.  Bonzie Colson played 8 games and had a worse 3 point shooting percentage.)  I mean, the guy must suck.

Wait, he was the MVP.

3 three point attempts per game is not "jacking up bad shots."  It's just not.

The Bucks shot 3,134 3s last year. Giannis shot 203 of them (2.8 per game). That's 6.5% of the team's 3s

MU shot 571 3s in Henry's year. He shot 104 of them (3.2 per game). That's 18.4% of the team's 3s.

If Henry had shot 6.5% of the team's 3s (like Giannis) he would have shot 37 all season (and other, better shooters would have shot an additional 67).

I think the Bucks had the ratio about right for a poor shooting stretch 4. Ours was almost 3x too high.

[wadesworld]

The Bucks shot 3,134 3s last year. Giannis shot 203 of them (2.8 per game). That's 6.5% of the team's 3s

MU shot 571 3s in Henry's year. He shot 104 of them (3.2 per game). That's 18.4% of the team's 3s.

If Henry had shot 6.5% of the team's 3s (like Giannis) he would have shot 37 all season (and other, better shooters would have shot an additional 67).

I think the Bucks had the ratio about right for a poor shooting stretch 4. Ours was almost 3x too high.

So you base how many times a guy should be able to shoot a 3 pointer on how many times his team shoots 3 pointers and not how good he is? Lol!

Henry shot a higher percentage from 3 than Giannis did. If one shooting three 3 pointers per game is an issue, than so is the worse of the 2.

[Lennys Tap]

So you base how many times a guy should be able to shoot a 3 pointer on how many times his team shoots 3 pointers and not how good he is? Lol!

Henry shot a higher percentage from 3 than Giannis did. If one shooting three 3 pointers per game is an issue, than so is the worse of the 2.

How many 3s shot per game is misleading/irrelevant (and you know it) because the Bucks shoot so many more per game than MU did.

Giannis is a "modern basketball" poor shooting stretch 4. All of his teammates who shoot 3s are better at it than he is so they shoot them more frequently than him. This makes sense.

Henry is a "modern basketball" poor shooting stretch 4. All of his teammates who shoot 3s are better at it than he is but he shoots them more frequently than all of them but one. This does not make sense.

[wadesworld]

How many 3s shot per game is misleading/irrelevant (and you know it) because the Bucks shoot so many more per game than MU did.

Giannis is a "modern basketball" poor shooting stretch 4. All of his teammates who shoot 3s are better at it than he is so they shoot them more frequently than him. This makes sense.

Henry is a "modern basketball" poor shooting stretch 4. All of his teammates who shoot 3s are better at it than he is but he shoots them more frequently than all of them but one. This does not make sense.

If you think 3 three point attempts per game is too many I don’t know what to tell you.

[Lennys Tap]

If you think 3 three point attempts per game is too many I don’t know what to tell you.

If you think a plan that has your worst 3 point shooter taking the 2nd most 3 point shots is a good one I don't know what to tell you.

[MuMark]

Dawson shot 43% from 3 last season and over 80% at the line....fwiw

He's a very good shooter but even good shooters can struggle at times  so you.
Never know for sure until he steps in the court next season.

[wadesworld]

If you think a plan that has your worst 3 point shooter taking the 2nd most 3 point shots is a good one I don't know what to tell you.

I think having your best player shoot the ball more than other guys is a good plan.  If that means the best player takes a whopping 3 three point attempts per game, I'm okay with it.

Maybe Luke Fischer should've written a letter to Wojo explaining why it would be good to have more ball distribution on the team so guys like Sandy Cohen and Traci Carter could "jack up" 3 three point attempts per game.

Possibly even turn it into a petition to get the team, minus Hank and maybe Walter, to sign off on the letter before presenting it to Wojo.

[TSmith34, Inc.]

Careful, latin got another thread shut down. Penny Hardaway's Quid Pro Quo to pay for a kid to come play for him in high school knowing full well behind the scenes he was also likely to replace Tubby Smith.  But for some reason the Quid Pro Quo comments got a thread shut down because some people panic and don't understand latin apparently.

Yeah, it was Latin that got the thread shut down, not you Chicos.  Yeah.

[Marcus92]

Five players on the roster shot better from beyond the arc than Henry did in 2015-16:

Haanif Cheatham 29-75 (38.7%)
JaJuan Johnson 25-65 (38.5%)
Sandy Cohen 28-80 (35.0%)
Duane Wilson 54-156 (34.6%)
Traci Carter 22-70 (31.4%)
Henry Ellenson 30-104 (28.8%)

There's no reason Henry should have taken the second most three-pointers on that team. Not only was he an poor shooter from outside (the team average was 33.9%) -- he wasn't all that good inside the arc, either. Henry was just just 164-331 (49.5%) on two-point attempts; the team average was 52.4%.

Henry's effective field goal percentage of 48% was 6th best on the team. Just not a very efficient scorer.

[Goose]

I do not care if Dawson shoots from halfcourt as long as he is an impact player. I hope Dawson is 75% of what Henry was during his one year at MU.

[Marcus92]

I think having your best player shoot the ball more than other guys is a good plan. If that means the best player takes a whopping 3 three point attempts per game, I'm okay with it.

If five teammates shot better from 2-point range, and five teammates shot better from 3-point range, I don't see how that makes Henry the best player to take so many shots.

Team's best rebounder? Absolutely. But one of the worst on the team when it came to shot selection and actually producing points.

[Jay Bee]

But one of the worst on the team when it came to shot selection and actually producing points.

Of the guys that played at least 70% of the team's minutes, his ORtg was the best and his usage was significantly higher, fwiw (a lot).

[Marcus92]

Of the guys that played at least 70% of the team's minutes, his ORtg was the best and his usage was significantly higher, fwiw (a lot).

Fair point. Guess that's a sign the team just wasn't all that good.

[wadesworld]

If five teammates shot better from 2-point range, and five teammates shot better from 3-point range, I don't see how that makes Henry the best player to take so many shots.

Team's best rebounder? Absolutely. But one of the worst on the team when it came to shot selection and actually producing points.

Sometimes players on a team are defended differently and get different looks.  If Henry wasn't taking tougher shots than, say, Traci Carter, MU might never put a shot up.  Just because a player shoots a higher percentage than a teammate doesn't mean he's automatically a better shooter or should shoot the ball more.  Otherwise we'd have guys like Matt Heldt getting the most shot attempts on the team, and I, for one, don't find that to be Marquette's best chance of success.  And if Matt Heldt were asked to shoot the ball more than anyone else, I'd be willing to bet his shooting percentages would go down.

[Lennys Tap]

I think having your best player shoot the ball more than other guys is a good plan.  If that means the best player takes a whopping 3 three point attempts per game, I'm okay with it.

Maybe Luke Fischer should've written a letter to Wojo explaining why it would be good to have more ball distribution on the team so guys like Sandy Cohen and Traci Carter could "jack up" 3 three point attempts per game.

Possibly even turn it into a petition to get the team, minus Hank and maybe Walter, to sign off on the letter before presenting it to Wojo.

I think the guys on the floor who are the best at shooting 3 point shots should take more of them than the guys on the floor who are bad at it. The Milwaukee Bucks coach agrees with me.

You think the best player should be the second most frequent 3 point shooter on the floor even if he's bad at it.

Yours is a dumb argument and you know it so you go off on an idiotic tangent/rant. Figures.

[wadesworld]

I think the guys on the floor who are the best at shooting 3 point shots should take more of them than the guys on the floor who are bad at it. The Milwaukee Bucks coach agrees with me.

You think the best player should be the second most frequent 3 point shooter on the floor even if he's bad at it.

Yours is a dumb argument and you know it so you go off on an idiotic tangent/rant. Figures.

See the post right above yours.  You think Matt Heldt should've led the team in shot attempts his junior and senior seasons.  I think that's absurd.  But you do you.

You continue to claim that Giannis 3 three point attempts per game at 26% wasn’t an issue but Henry’s 3 three point attempts per game at 29% was an issue. LOL!

[Lennys Tap]

You continue to claim that Giannis 3 three point attempts per game at 26% wasn’t an issue but Henry’s 3 three point attempts per game at 29% was an issue. LOL!

Last time because I know you're just being stubborn.

1. You lied about how many 3s Henry (3.2, not 3) and Giannis (2.8, not 3) took per game.

2. Even if we accept your made up lies and not the true facts, the raw number of 3s taken per game is totally beside the point because Giannis's team takes more than 2.5x as many 3s as MU did.

3. Here's the point: Two stretch 4s, both of them the worst 3 point shooters on their teams. Player A (Giannis) shoots 6.5% of his team's 3s, Player B (Henry) shoots 16.4% of his team's 3s. Will a team be better served (i.e., be more efficient) by having their worst 3 ball shooter take 6.5% of his team's 3s or 16.4% of his team's 3s? I say the Bucks have it right, your only complaint is Henry didn't shoot more 3s because the best players should shoot the most shots.

I guarantee you Wojo knows that team would have been better with more of inside Henry and less of outside Henry. But Wojo made the deal to showcase Henry's versatility and he stuck to it. Good for Henry, and one could argue maybe good for MU (Dawson?) in the long run. But not good for that team.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

Last time because I know you're just being stubborn.

1. You lied about how many 3s Henry (3.2, not 3) and Giannis (2.8, not 3) took per game.

2. Even if we accept your made up lies and not the true facts, the raw number of 3s taken per game is totally beside the point because Giannis's team takes more than 2.5x as many 3s as MU did.

Not to mention than an NBA game is 20% longer than a college one.

[Jay Bee]

Not to mention than an NBA game is 20% longer than a college one.

Y u not look at tempo? Per game stats r 4 StN types

[wadesworld]

Last time because I know you're just being stubborn.

1. You lied about how many 3s Henry (3.2, not 3) and Giannis (2.8, not 3) took per game.

2. Even if we accept your made up lies and not the true facts, the raw number of 3s taken per game is totally beside the point because Giannis's team takes more than 2.5x as many 3s as MU did.

3. Here's the point: Two stretch 4s, both of them the worst 3 point shooters on their teams. Player A (Giannis) shoots 6.5% of his team's 3s, Player B (Henry) shoots 16.4% of his team's 3s. Will a team be better served (i.e., be more efficient) by having their worst 3 ball shooter take 6.5% of his team's 3s or 16.4% of his team's 3s? I say the Bucks have it right, your only complaint is Henry didn't shoot more 3s because the best players should shoot the most shots.

I guarantee you Wojo knows that team would have been better with more of inside Henry and less of outside Henry. But Wojo made the deal to showcase Henry's versatility and he stuck to it. Good for Henry, and one could argue maybe good for MU (Dawson?) in the long run. But not good for that team.

Lol.  Quit lying Lenny.  It's 3.151515151515 continuous three point attempts per game for Henry and 2.81944444 continous for Giannis.  Liar.

Having to go into rounding...when you know you've lost an argument.  Desperate times call for desperate measures.

You talk like there's a finite number of 3 pointers a team gets to take.  Percentage of a team's 3 point attempts a player took?  What?  Lol.  Sorry Lenny.  But if you think 3 three point attempts per game is too many there's not much that can help you.  Especially when it's only too many for the guy who actually shoots them better.  Lol.

Maybe there's a little more nuance to basketball than "Traci Carter made a higher percentage of his 3 point attempts so he should shoot more three pointers!"  But you're smarter than me so it can't be that way.

I can't believe Wojo screwed around for Matt Heldt's 4 years.  One of, if not THE, most efficient offensive players in the country.  HOW IN THE WORLD DOES WOJO NOT RUN THE OFFENSE THROUGH MATT HELDT?!

Sheesh.

[Lennys Tap]

Lol.  Quit lying Lenny.  It's 3.151515151515 continuous three point attempts per game for Henry and 2.81944444 continous for Giannis.  Liar.

Having to go into rounding...when you know you've lost an argument.  Desperate times call for desperate measures.

You talk like there's a finite number of 3 pointers a team gets to take.  Percentage of a team's 3 point attempts a player took?  What?  Lol.  Sorry Lenny.  But if you think 3 three point attempts per game is too many there's not much that can help you.  Especially when it's only too many for the guy who actually shoots them better.  Lol.

Maybe there's a little more nuance to basketball than "Traci Carter made a higher percentage of his 3 point attempts so he should shoot more three pointers!"  But you're smarter than me so it can't be that way.

I can't believe Wojo screwed around for Matt Heldt's 4 years.  One of, if not THE, most efficient offensive players in the country.  HOW IN THE WORLD DOES WOJO NOT RUN THE OFFENSE THROUGH MATT HELDT?!

Sheesh.

Still lying? Check.

Still dishonestly and intentionally drawing obviously false/stupid inferences that have nothing to do with anything I've said? Check.

Still moving the goalposts? Check. Losing the argument, totally busted, typical reaction. Matt Frickin' Heldt has zero, zip, nada to do with this discussion. You know that. But you obfuscate by throwing sh!t at the wall because it's all you have.

People who understand statistics here realize how moronic it is to say that 2.8 out of 40 something is the same as 3.2 out of 19. You don't. I can't help mathematical, statistical stupid. Sorry.

Have a nice Thanksgiving.

[wadesworld]

Still lying? Check.

Still dishonestly and intentionally drawing obviously false/stupid inferences that have nothing to do with anything I've said? Check.

Still moving the goalposts? Check. Losing the argument, totally busted, typical reaction. Matt Frickin' Heldt has zero, zip, nada to do with this discussion. You know that. But you obfuscate by throwing sh!t at the wall because it's all you have.

People who understand statistics here realize how moronic it is to say that 2.8 out of 40 something is the same as 3.2 out of 19. You don't. I can't help mathematical, statistical stupid. Sorry.

Have a nice Thanksgiving.

Lying? Goal post shifting? Where’s that?

Either we’re not rounding and you’re lying or we’re rounding.

2.8 out of 40 something? 3.2 out of 19?

Matt Heldt had our highest shooting percentage the last 2 years. You have a problem with guys who shot higher three point percentages shooting fewer three pointers. So I have to assume you have a problem with Matt Heldt not leading the team in shooting. Why the double standard if not?

[wadesworld]

Not to mention than an NBA game is 20% longer than a college one.

Henry played more minutes per game as a freshman at Marquette than Giannis played for the Bucks last year...

[Cheeks]

Henry played more minutes per game as a freshman at Marquette than Giannis played for the Bucks last year...

Good use of ellipsis...