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Author Topic: Brand new season, same old Wojo.  (Read 13838 times)

Pakuni

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #250 on: November 19, 2019, 05:37:58 PM »
The guys who aren’t Howard and McEwen are Deane-level players.  You’re wrong if you think otherwise.

The Deane guys who weren't Wardle and Henry were Horizon League level players. Which is not something that could be said for anyone on current roster.
So, you're wrong.

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #251 on: November 19, 2019, 06:32:55 PM »
The guys who aren’t Howard and McEwen are Deane-level players.  You’re wrong if you think otherwise.

Sorry but no. 


This roster has far more talent than Deane-level players. 

Yes.
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Cheeks

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #252 on: November 19, 2019, 07:18:35 PM »
In my opinion, good coaches elevate their team beyond the expected skill set. Good coaches seem to have a “magic” about them that shows when teams find ways to pull out tough games. Buzz’s teams consistently over performed their expectations, found ways to win the tough games and won when it really mattered.

Wojo’s teams seem to crumble when it matters most and have not been better than the sum of their parts.

Buzz’s last team was picked first for the Big East and finished 6th with no NIT even.

Several other Buzz teams were picked to do one thing, but did worse...but a run in the NCAA tournament erases all apparently.

Wojo, last year predicted to finish second and we finished second.  I’ll have to go through the others.

Our memories are dulling.

”Bob Knight said never to coach brothers, and never coach twins....they will make you crazy.  When one is sad, the other is sad.”

Cheeks

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #253 on: November 19, 2019, 07:21:39 PM »
Aside from Howard and maybe McEwen, our roster is filled with Deane-level players.  But I agree that landing Garcia would buy Wojo another year.

This is factually incorrect unless you are talking about Deane inherited players.
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Cheeks

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #254 on: November 19, 2019, 07:24:27 PM »
I
That’s an interesting point. I’d liken this to an NFL coach who continues to accumulate top draft picks but doesn’t achieve expected results. “You can’t possibly fire him because top player xyz hasn’t reached full potential.”

It’s a shortsighted solution to a long term, ongoing problem.

I wouldn’t liken it to that at all because there is no draft in college basketball.  A team in pro sports that continues to lose despite great draft picks he’s a big problem, especially in the nba and nfl where draft picks matter much more than MLB. 

In college, there is no guarantee at all with a new coach.  We can go through a bunch of SEC level football coaches if you all wish that had too notch programs only a decade or two ago and now cannot get it right despite insane budgets, etc.


Think folks..think.
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panda

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #255 on: November 19, 2019, 07:39:57 PM »
I
I wouldn’t liken it to that at all because there is no draft in college basketball.  A team in pro sports that continues to lose despite great draft picks he’s a big problem, especially in the nba and nfl where draft picks matter much more than MLB. 

In college, there is no guarantee at all with a new coach.  We can go through a bunch of SEC level football coaches if you all wish that had too notch programs only a decade or two ago and now cannot get it right despite insane budgets, etc.


Think folks..think.

Be a critical thinker just one time. Pick a different analogy for me if you’re too simple to figure out mine.

A coach who continuously brings in high talent players but underperforms will always have supporters who say he should continue with his job because of those players’ unrecognized potential. All the while, the results are barely adequate.

This is my only response to you, thread ruiner.

Herman Cain

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #256 on: November 19, 2019, 08:11:52 PM »
I think the title to this thread is excellent.

I continue to believe the best way for MU to get rid of Wojo is for him to have a solid season this year. 21-22 wins should be good enough to get him an offer from a Power 5 football school looking to improve their basketball program.

 Wojo enjoyed the brief dalliance with Va Tech and is definitely receptive to the right school. Maryland would be his dream job, but that is probably not open for a while.  Here are some research reports on those on the hot seat

 https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/college-basketball-hot-seat-seven-coaches-whose-jobs-could-be-on-the-line-in-2019-20/

https://bustingbrackets.com/2019/09/10/ncaa-basketball-5-coaches-hot-seat-2019-20-season/

https://watchstadium.com/news/college-basketball-coaches-on-the-hot-seat-heading-into-the-season-10-24-2019/

https://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2019/10/09/the-hot-seat-which-college-basketball-coaches-are-in-danger-of-losing-their-job/


There will be a long list of quality coaches who would be interested in the MU coaching job.
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Warrior Code

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #257 on: November 19, 2019, 08:29:47 PM »
I think the title to this thread is excellent.

I continue to believe the best way for MU to get rid of Wojo is for him to have a solid season this year. 21-22 wins should be good enough to get him an offer from a Power 5 football school looking to improve their basketball program.

 Wojo enjoyed the brief dalliance with Va Tech and is definitely receptive to the right school. Maryland would be his dream job, but that is probably not open for a while.  Here are some research reports on those on the hot seat

 https://www.cbssports.com/college-basketball/news/college-basketball-hot-seat-seven-coaches-whose-jobs-could-be-on-the-line-in-2019-20/

https://bustingbrackets.com/2019/09/10/ncaa-basketball-5-coaches-hot-seat-2019-20-season/

https://watchstadium.com/news/college-basketball-coaches-on-the-hot-seat-heading-into-the-season-10-24-2019/

https://collegebasketball.nbcsports.com/2019/10/09/the-hot-seat-which-college-basketball-coaches-are-in-danger-of-losing-their-job/


There will be a long list of quality coaches who would be interested in the MU coaching job.

Ok, I'll bite. Like who?
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Herman Cain

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #258 on: November 19, 2019, 08:43:39 PM »
Ok, I'll bite. Like who?
Here is a research report on selected successful mid major coaches. These guys would all be eager for the MU job.
https://clutchpoints.com/7-mid-major-college-basketball-coaches-rise-2019-20-season/
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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #259 on: November 19, 2019, 08:46:12 PM »
This is not a defense of Wojo, so don't read it that way. I did however want to comment on Buzz's teams, as some seem to remember the "good old days" as better than I do.  As humans we do tend to remember the good and forget the bad, survival instinct I guess - plenty of psychological studies on this as it relates to business, gamblings wins vs. loses, stock investing, ect.  Overtime, we remember the good and forget or discount the bad.  Just the way we humans function and survive, I guess.

So, let me say that Buzz had gritty teams.  We made some great runs in the tournament.  Great tournaments runs, let me say that again, and for some that is all that matters.  A couple of those were teams that just made it into the tournament by a hair and didn't have great seasons, but they did win in the tourney.   

The one thing I could not stand regarding Buzz's teams and it made games painful to watch, is the lack of shooting and skills and lack of a real point guard (I do not think Junior was good, just better than the others he had). I know others love him.  He did hit one shot for a win, I think at Providence, and I remember at a game we really needed to win for our tourney hopes. But...

The inability to shoot the ball, with a couple of exceptions (DJO could be killer) was so painful to watch.  This is something that stands out for me.  I like teams that can shoot, pass, etc.  So, watching those gritty teams, was not fun for me.

Maybe I'm remembering the good old days in a negative light, but that is how I remember them.  Painful shooting teams with great athleticism but not great basketball players.  There were a few exceptions, but that is my general take.  For reference, I loved watching a guy like Diener play - killer ball handler, passer, shooter, smart as heck basketball IQ.  He may have been a bit slow on the defensive end, but for me, that was okay given his other abilities.  So that is my bias.  So Buzz's teams that lacked these qualities were really painful for me to watch.

So, Buzz = lack of basketball skills.  Wojo, until now, has = lack of athleticism.   Maybe to simple, but that's my simple take. I enjoy watching Wojo's teams more.  Would love some tourney runs, of course.

The item that is missing and why Buzz is not here and had to go, has been remedied by Wojo.  The team is now part of the university not run at the pleasure of an individual who thinks the team is separate from the university. That can be ignored when talking purely basketball, but can't be when talking about a college team that is not KY, Louisville, etc.



This seems more appropriate for the offseason.

Lennys Tap

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #260 on: November 19, 2019, 08:54:11 PM »
.

Several other Buzz teams were picked to do one thing, but did worse...but a run in the NCAA tournament erases all apparently.



This is a lie. Years 1 and 3 we met regular season expectations and were on pace to exceed them in year 1 when James got hurt. Year 2 even you admitted we vastly exceeded expectations by earning a 6 seed. Years 4 and 5 we were 14-4, conference champs and conference runner ups, both exceeding expectations. In the tournament we met expectations in year 1, lost a pick'em by one point in year 2, then went S16, S16, E8.

Which are the "several" seasons where we underperformed expectations. #Lies
« Last Edit: November 19, 2019, 09:49:35 PM by Lennys Tap »

brewcity77

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #261 on: November 19, 2019, 09:18:34 PM »
Maybe Wojo is not the right man, then all you haters, whom do you want?  I do not think you realize how hard it is to recruit to MU.

I'm not anti-Wojo at all, but here's a few names I'd be interested in:

1) John Becker, Vermont. He's a damn good coach, and has been at Vermont for close to a decade, so there's a loyalty factor.

2) Craig Smith, Utah State. Minnesota native that has unearthed guys like Matt Mooney and Neemias Queta.

3) Wes Miller, UNC-Greensboro. Can win at different tempos, has built a solid program. Only worry is he might be the pick to succeed Roy at Chapel Hill.

Not saying I want a new coach, but there are coaches out there.

Herman Cain

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #262 on: November 19, 2019, 09:36:04 PM »
I'm not anti-Wojo at all, but here's a few names I'd be interested in:

1) John Becker, Vermont. He's a damn good coach, and has been at Vermont for close to a decade, so there's a loyalty factor.

2) Craig Smith, Utah State. Minnesota native that has unearthed guys like Matt Mooney and Neemias Queta.

3) Wes Miller, UNC-Greensboro. Can win at different tempos, has built a solid program. Only worry is he might be the pick to succeed Roy at Chapel Hill.

Not saying I want a new coach, but there are coaches out there.
TJ Otzelberger
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BCHoopster

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #263 on: November 19, 2019, 09:53:29 PM »
TJ Otzelberger

You must be kidding on all those names.  Wojo is a known name to the fathers of the kids MU are recruiting, much better resume, plus to me he
has at least one assistant coach that really knows how to get involved with recruits, as he has brought in kids from the West Coast, hard to
believe.  Just think how good Stan would have been at Arizona St.  If he gets Garcia, he might be turning the corner.  Telling Mane that he has 3
top recruits coming in and a starting position for him next year, I say why not.  A line-up of Mane, McEwen, Garcia, Lewis and Theo plus a nice bench would be pretty good.  Now that is a big starting 5,  add another 6'10" kid in Osa and Smyr, looks pretty good next year and the future.

Cheeks

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #264 on: November 19, 2019, 09:54:38 PM »
Be a critical thinker just one time. Pick a different analogy for me if you’re too simple to figure out mine.

A coach who continuously brings in high talent players but underperforms will always have supporters who say he should continue with his job because of those players’ unrecognized potential. All the while, the results are barely adequate.

This is my only response to you, thread ruiner.

I believe I do often think critically.  We just disagree.  I don’t judge a coach solely on one or two games in March that is a total crapshoot.  I value the regular season, too, and keeping the school out of the front pages for wrong reasons, etc. 

Dean Smith continuously brought in top players only to not win the title for a long time.  Lou Carnesecca.  Jim Boeheim.  Etc.  I’m in it for the long haul.  Appreciate your response even if it was the only one you will make.
”Bob Knight said never to coach brothers, and never coach twins....they will make you crazy.  When one is sad, the other is sad.”

VegasWarrior77

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #265 on: November 19, 2019, 09:58:01 PM »
TJO is not impressing UNLV fans so far.
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brewcity77

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #266 on: November 19, 2019, 10:03:15 PM »
You must be kidding on all those names.  Wojo is a known name to the fathers of the kids MU are recruiting, much better resume, plus to me he
has at least one assistant coach that really knows how to get involved with recruits, as he has brought in kids from the West Coast, hard to
believe.  Just think how good Stan would have been at Arizona St.  If he gets Garcia, he might be turning the corner.  Telling Mane that he has 3
top recruits coming in and a starting position for him next year, I say why not.  A line-up of Mane, McEwen, Garcia, Lewis and Theo plus a nice bench would be pretty good.  Now that is a big starting 5,  add another 6'10" kid in Osa and Smyr, looks pretty good next year and the future.

Would you trade Wojo for Chris Beard?

Pakuni

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #267 on: November 19, 2019, 10:09:21 PM »
These posts were way more interesting when you all made them in April.

BCHoopster

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #268 on: November 19, 2019, 10:10:34 PM »
Would you trade Wojo for Chris Beard?

Yes, but he was not on the list given above.  I do not want to go thru another rebuilding cycle.  Wojo came, all of Buzz's recruits left.  If he gets
Garcia, 3 top 75 kids, that is pretty darn good, to me excellent.  Just hope they are better than Erik Williams and hate to say, Brendan Bailey, who
were both in the Top 100 in there class.  Well, if anything, we will have a tall front line.  I have to believe they will be better than what MU has
now.  On that last statement, I hope I eat my words, as there are at least 30 more games to watch.

Cheeks

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #269 on: November 19, 2019, 10:21:59 PM »
This is a lie. Years 1 and 3 we met regular season expectations and were on pace to exceed them in year 1 when James got hurt. Year 2 even you admitted we vastly exceeded expectations by earning a 6 seed. Years 4 and 5 we were 14-4, conference champs and conference runner ups, both exceeding expectations. In the tournament we met expectations in year 1, lost a pick'em by one point in year 2, then went S16, S16, E8.

Which are the "several" seasons where we underperformed expectations. #Lies

#No lies


Year 3, we were picked 6th and finished in a 3 way tie for 9th (positions 9 thru 11).  Not sure how that is meeting expectations.   https://www.syracuse.com/orangebasketball/2010/10/pitt_picked_to_win_big_east_an.html

Year 6, we were picked 1st and finished 6th.  Definitely not meeting expectations.
https://www.vuhoops.com/2013/10/16/4844240/2013-big-east-basketball-media-day-polls-preseason-teams-quotes


Please note I didn't say each year, there were years we finished ahead of predictions and years we did not.  #NoLies


https://youtu.be/Xr9Oubxw1gA


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Mutaman

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #270 on: November 19, 2019, 10:35:05 PM »


The item that is missing and why Buzz is not here and had to go, has been remedied by Wojo.  The team is now part of the university not run at the pleasure of an individual who thinks the team is separate from the university. That can be ignored when talking purely basketball, but can't be when talking about a college team that is not KY, Louisville, etc.

Zero post season wins but "The team is now part of the university". Somehow it just doesn't seem like a fair trade off.

Cheeks

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #271 on: November 19, 2019, 10:39:33 PM »
Zero post season wins but "The team is now part of the university". Somehow it just doesn't seem like a fair trade off.

#lies

Several post season wins.  Big East Tournament, NIT
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Lennys Tap

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #272 on: November 19, 2019, 10:44:52 PM »
#No lies


Year 3, we were picked 6th and finished in a 3 way tie for 9th (positions 9 thru 11).  Not sure how that is meeting expectations.   https://www.syracuse.com/orangebasketball/2010/10/pitt_picked_to_win_big_east_an.html

Year 6, we were picked 1st and finished 6th.  Definitely not meeting expectations.
https://www.vuhoops.com/2013/10/16/4844240/2013-big-east-basketball-media-day-polls-preseason-teams-quotes


Please note I didn't say each year, there were years we finished ahead of predictions and years we did not.  #NoLies


https://youtu.be/Xr9Oubxw1gA

You said that in SEVERAL years OTHER than year 6 we finished below expectations under Buzz. Other than year 6 means not including year 6.

So, once in those five years. One is not several. Neither would be 2. Doubling down on lies.

Oh, and in that year we slightly underachieved (9-9 vs a predicted 10-8) we went to the S16, beating a #6 and #3 team in the tournament #Mitigating
« Last Edit: November 19, 2019, 10:47:46 PM by Lennys Tap »

Silent Verbal

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #273 on: November 19, 2019, 11:02:17 PM »
You must be kidding on all those names.  Wojo is a known name to the fathers of the kids MU are recruiting, much better resume, plus to me he
has at least one assistant coach that really knows how to get involved with recruits, as he has brought in kids from the West Coast, hard to
believe.  Just think how good Stan would have been at Arizona St.  If he gets Garcia, he might be turning the corner.  Telling Mane that he has 3
top recruits coming in and a starting position for him next year, I say why not.  A line-up of Mane, McEwen, Garcia, Lewis and Theo plus a nice bench would be pretty good.  Now that is a big starting 5,  add another 6'10" kid in Osa and Smyr, looks pretty good next year and the future.

See, this is where I call BS on your “who would you replace him with” question.  You asked and people gave some pretty reasonable answers.  You then immediately pooh-poohed them and called the suggestions ridiculous.  I don’t even know why you asked the question.  You already had your mind made up.

Herman Cain

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Re: Brand new season, same old Wojo.
« Reply #274 on: November 19, 2019, 11:10:05 PM »
TJO is not impressing UNLV fans so far.
Just signed  6 kids.  So someone is buying what he is selling.

https://lasvegassun.com/news/2019/nov/18/analysis-unlv-basketball-announces-2020-signees/
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