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Author Topic: The next big test for Wojo is......  (Read 2596 times)

duanewade

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The next big test for Wojo is......
« on: September 16, 2019, 03:11:32 PM »
First of all great news on getting "Oso" as I mentioned in previous posts I think he's going to be a superstar player for us.  I don't ever see him being a consistent 20 point scorer but rather a player who has such a unique and diverse skill-set that he ends up dramatically impacting the game the way Dennis Rodman did who also did not demand the ball yet made the game easier for everyone around him.  Of course he's also the anti-Rodman in that he's a 4.0 student who probably would have gotten a full academic scholarship to Marquette and any number of schools as he had Stanford, Princeton and Vanderbilt all calling on him.  It's truly remarkable that we got an impact player in Phoenix away from the Pac 12 and even ivy league schools.  I hope he has the same impact that Manti Teo had on ND when out of the blue a Mormon kid from Hawaii shunned the Pete Carroll led USC juggernaut on signing day and became the single biggest catalyst in ND's resurrection from the low's of the Charlie Weis era (let's just hope he doesn't have any fake girlfriends  :-[).

As also mentioned I thought he was the swing recruit and that if we got him it would speak volumes and the class would gain momentum and finish strong.  If we lost him I felt the opposite would happen.  Well with him in the fold and Stan's cryptic tweets about a great recruiting road trip makes me certain we're on our way to getting at least one other top 100 player and possibly two. 

Ok with the recruiting test answered and passed it's time to go back to the original subject line......to me the clear harbinger of next year's season is the USC game (assuming we can beat Davidson which is no guarantee either).  I say this as Wojo has yet to win a non-conference game against a big program with similar talent to MU on the road or at a neutral court location.  Well coached/veteran teams don't come out and spot the home team a 20 point lead before half like we did at IU.  Nor do they blow halftime leads against Kansas by not scoring for ten minutes to start the 2nd half. 

USC will be very talented and are also led by Andy Enfield who made millions in the private sector before even getting into coaching and then brought Florida Gulf Coast University to the Sweet 16.  Thus far he's been pretty pedestrian at USC but he has recruited well and is a very bright and capable coach.  This is a make or break year for USC also so I see the MU vs. USC game as a huge early test to see if MU/Wojo can finally win a big early season test against a major opponent without the help of a home crowd.  If we win this game I think it speaks volumes about the team's maturity and inner toughness.  If we do win then expect us to have a great year then and make the Sweet 16 or better.  If we lose this game then I expect a repeat of the year before and it will be clear that Wojo will never truly answer the bell as a coach and his teams will remain stagnant and soft. 

Talent this year will not be an issue as both last year's MU team and this year's MU team could and can beat any team in the country when playing well.  In fact I think this year's team is far more talented than last year's team as I see Koby McEwen/Symir Torrence and Jayce Johnson as huge upgrades over Chartouney, Heldt and even Anim as I expect to see his minutes subside some with Koby McEwen in the mix.  I also expect Brendan Bailey to be an upgrade over Joey Hauser as he's a much better defender and will be more effective than Joey if he has a more consistent and confident jump shot than he showed last year.

TBD....
 
« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 09:08:01 AM by duanewade »

jesmu84

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Re: The next big test for Wojo is......
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2019, 03:30:07 PM »
I say this as Wojo has yet to win a non-conference game against a big program with similar talent to MU on the road or at a neutral court location.  Well coached/veteran teams don't come out spot the home team a 20 point lead before half like we did at IU.  Nor do they blow halftime leads against Kansas by not scoring for ten minutes to start the 2nd half. 

Louisville? GT?  Tennessee? Arizona State? Wisconsin? Vanderbilt? LSU (with Simmons)? Wisconsin? Oregon?

Dr. Blackheart

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Re: The next big test for Wojo is......
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2019, 03:32:19 PM »
Louisville? GT?  Tennessee? Arizona State? Wisconsin? Vanderbilt? LSU (with Simmons)? Wisconsin? Oregon?

Kansas State...

#UnleashCain

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Re: The next big test for Wojo is......
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2019, 03:35:03 PM »
Tldr

duanewade

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Re: The next big test for Wojo is......
« Reply #4 on: September 16, 2019, 03:35:55 PM »
Louisville? GT?  Tennessee? Arizona State? Wisconsin? Vanderbilt? LSU (with Simmons)? Wisconsin? Oregon?
Reading comprehension and history are not your strong points.  Of course you're not alone. 

Fluffy Blue Monster

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Re: The next big test for Wojo is......
« Reply #5 on: September 16, 2019, 03:40:58 PM »
Reading comprehension and history are not your strong points.  Of course you're not alone. 


I would say that the 2015-16 win at Wisconsin (who would end up in the S16), the Veterans Classic v. Vanderbilt in 2016-17, the 2017-18 against the Ben Simmons LSU team and last year's Louisville game probably fit that description.
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jesmu84

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Re: The next big test for Wojo is......
« Reply #6 on: September 16, 2019, 04:20:59 PM »
Reading comprehension and history are not your strong points.  Of course you're not alone.

I was trying to figure out what your definition of "big program with similar talent" is.

The teams I listed were all non-conference road/neutral wins under wojo.

So, to be clear, you don't consider any of those wins as "big programs" who, at the time, had "similar talent" to MU?

jesmu84

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Re: The next big test for Wojo is......
« Reply #7 on: September 16, 2019, 04:22:28 PM »

Dr. Blackheart

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Re: The next big test for Wojo is......
« Reply #8 on: September 16, 2019, 06:04:21 PM »
Wasn't that in Milwaukee?

It was but I couldn't get through the 10,000 word opus to see all the qualifying footnotes.  Guilty as charged!

4everCrean

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Re: The next big test for Wojo is......
« Reply #9 on: September 16, 2019, 06:21:10 PM »

USC will be very talented and are also led by Andy Enfield who made millions in the private sector before even getting into coaching and then brought Florida Gulf Coast University to the Sweet 16.  Thus far he's been pretty pedestrian at USC but he has recruited well and is a very bright and capable coach.  This is a make or break year for USC also so I see the MU vs. USC game as a huge early test to see if MU/Wojo can finally win a big early season test against a major opponent without the help of a home crowd. If we win this game I think it speaks volumes about the team's maturity and inner toughness.  If we do win then expect us to have a great year then and make the Sweet 16 or better.  If we lose this game then I expect a repeat of the year before and it will be clear that Wojo will never truly answer the bell as a coach and his teams will remain stagnant and soft. 


You're putting a whole lot of expectations on one game..........

So, you're sayin' a fifth seed in the NCAA tournament would determine that  " it will be clear that Wojo will never truly answer the bell as a coach and his teams will remain stagnant and soft." ?  Hummmm
You actually have a degree from Marquette?

Quote from: muguru
No...and after reading many many psosts from people on this board that do...I have to say I'm MUCH better off, if this is the type of "intelligence" a degree from MU gets you. It sure is on full display I will say that.

Cheeks

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Re: The next big test for Wojo is......
« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2019, 06:54:30 PM »
Louisville? GT?  Tennessee? Arizona State? Wisconsin? Vanderbilt? LSU (with Simmons)? Wisconsin? Oregon?

I would also want to know why conference road games were excluded...those with similar talent and considered high quality wins. 
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duanewade

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Re: The next big test for Wojo is......
« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2019, 07:19:03 PM »
You're putting a whole lot of expectations on one game..........

So, you're sayin' a fifth seed in the NCAA tournament would determine that  " it will be clear that Wojo will never truly answer the bell as a coach and his teams will remain stagnant and soft." ?  Hummmm
Yes I am, a harbinger by definition is just that. To me if he we play a high quality opponent, with a very smart coach and Wojo and the team falls flat/gets out coached, etc. then he flunked a key test in telling me if MU is finally for real or to expect more of the same. These thanksgiving tournament opponents are similar to the type of matchups and turnaround time we’ll face come March.

Conference games don’t impress me as much as there are a lot of them and they’re against familiar opponents were the scouting report just needs to be tweaked. Further last year we lived in a bubble and didn’t realize how bad the Big East was until every team had very early post season exits.

Hence why USC is the next critical evaluation of the team and the program.

Getting Dexter Akano (who I think is very underrated), Symir, Justin and Oso shows me Wojo has finally figured out how to recruit at Marquette. These are all great prospects and are light years better than his early years when he was bringing in head scratchers like Gabe Levin, Carlino, Heldt and Wally Ellenson. Now I need to see if Wojo can pass this next big test before I believe the 2019-2020 team will reach its potential or flame out again like last year.

Galway Eagle

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Re: The next big test for Wojo is......
« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2019, 07:50:57 PM »
Yes I am, a harbinger by definition is just that. To me if he we play a high quality opponent, with a very smart coach and Wojo and the team falls flat/gets out coached, etc. then he flunked a key test in telling me if MU is finally for real or to expect more of the same. These thanksgiving tournament opponents are similar to the type of matchups and turnaround time we’ll face come March.

Conference games don’t impress me as much as there are a lot of them and they’re against familiar opponents were the scouting report just needs to be tweaked. Further last year we lived in a bubble and didn’t realize how bad the Big East was until every team had very early post season exits.

Hence why USC is the next critical evaluation of the team and the program.

Getting Dexter Akano (who I think is very underrated), Symir, Justin and Oso shows me Wojo has finally figured out how to recruit at Marquette. These are all great prospects and are light years better than his early years when he was bringing in head scratchers like Gabe Levin, Carlino, Heldt and Wally Ellenson. Now I need to see if Wojo can pass this next big test before I believe the 2019-2020 team will reach its potential or flame out again like last year.

Carlino, who made second team all big east? How's that a head scratcher? He was clearly a bit odd with all the transferring but the kid could play.
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BallBoy

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Re: The next big test for Wojo is......
« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2019, 08:10:46 PM »
Yes I am, a harbinger by definition is just that. To me if he we play a high quality opponent, with a very smart coach and Wojo and the team falls flat/gets out coached, etc. then he flunked a key test in telling me if MU is finally for real or to expect more of the same. These thanksgiving tournament opponents are similar to the type of matchups and turnaround time we’ll face come March.

Conference games don’t impress me as much as there are a lot of them and they’re against familiar opponents were the scouting report just needs to be tweaked. Further last year we lived in a bubble and didn’t realize how bad the Big East was until every team had very early post season exits.

Hence why USC is the next critical evaluation of the team and the program.

Getting Dexter Akano (who I think is very underrated), Symir, Justin and Oso shows me Wojo has finally figured out how to recruit at Marquette. These are all great prospects and are light years better than his early years when he was bringing in head scratchers like Gabe Levin, Carlino, Heldt and Wally Ellenson. Now I need to see if Wojo can pass this next big test before I believe the 2019-2020 team will reach its potential or flame out again like last year.

Your logic makes no sense. First, Wojo won Legends Classic in 2015 (a Thanksgiving Tournament). He won against LSU and Arizona State. Both of which were arguably better than USC is this year. Arizona State was coached by Bobby Hurley who most believe is a better and more experienced than Andy. So if you are saying Wojo needs to do it to prove something then he already did. If he needs to do it to prove this year then I would point out that he won the Legends but didn’t make the NCAA that year so it is meaningless. Last year he lost to Kansas but beat Louisville in NIT. He also beat Wisconsin at the Kohl the year prior but only made NIT.  He lost to IU but still made the tourney so those games have little to show in terms of measuring.

Next you point out a bunch of “head scratchers” but at least two who are anything but. Carlino was the best grad transfer available after Buzz left the team and was second team Big East. He was also an above average player prior to coming to MU. Wally was a means to get Henry which worked so not really a head scratcher.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2019, 11:21:12 PM by BallBoy »

Cheeks

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Re: The next big test for Wojo is......
« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2019, 08:36:25 PM »

Conference games don’t impress me as much as there are a lot of them and they’re against familiar opponents were the scouting report just needs to be tweaked. Further last year we lived in a bubble and didn’t realize how bad the Big East was until every team had very early post season exits.


Conference games are arguably the most important games a team plays.

The opposing conference team has a scouting report, too.
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Lennys Tap

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Re: The next big test for Wojo is......
« Reply #15 on: September 16, 2019, 08:49:57 PM »
Further last year we lived in a bubble and didn’t realize how bad the Big East was until every team had very early post season exits.


Some (many?) of us were well aware long before the post season that the Big East was way down last year.

Lennys Tap

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Re: The next big test for Wojo is......
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2019, 08:53:24 PM »
Conference games are arguably the most important games a team plays.


NCAA tournament games are the most important games a team plays.

Nukem2

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Re: The next big test for Wojo is......
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2019, 08:58:40 PM »
NCAA tournament games are the most important games a team plays.
Kinda hard to play in those tournament games without doing reasonably well in those important conference games?  Think you have the cart before the horse?  NCAA games are the frosting on the cake.

Lennys Tap

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Re: The next big test for Wojo is......
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2019, 09:09:33 PM »
Kinda hard to play in those tournament games without doing reasonably well in those important conference games?  Think you have the cart before the horse?  NCAA games are the frosting on the cake.

Yes, you have to win a reasonable amount of conference and non conference games to reach the tournament. Not any particular game or combination of games, but a reasonable amount overall. If you don't do reasonably well, no tournament and an unsuccessful season.

Nukem2

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Re: The next big test for Wojo is......
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2019, 09:24:10 PM »
Yes, you have to win a reasonable amount of conference and non conference games to reach the tournament. Not any particular game or combination of games, but a reasonable amount overall. If you don't do reasonably well, no tournament and an unsuccessful season.
Dats what da man said.  No dancin’ without the shoes.

Jockey

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Re: The next big test for Wojo is......
« Reply #20 on: September 16, 2019, 09:29:28 PM »

Ok with the recruiting test answered and passed it's time to go back to the original subject line......
 

Talent this year will not be an issue as both last year's MU team and this year's MU team could and can beat any team in the country when playing well.  In fact I think this year's team is far more talented than last year's team as I see Koby McEwen/Symir Torrence and Jayce Johnson as huge upgrades over Chartouney, Heldt and even Anim as I expect to see his minutes subside some with Koby McEwen in the mix.
 

1) Recruiting for next year is a work in progress - it has not been answered.

2) I, for one, think Anim will be 2nd on the team in both minutes played and in scoring this year. Would be interested in other opinions on this.

duanewade

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Re: The next big test for Wojo is......
« Reply #21 on: September 16, 2019, 09:37:02 PM »
Your logic makes no sense. First, Wojo won Legends Classic in 2014 (a Thanksgiving Tournament). He won against LSU and Arizona State. Both of which were arguably better than USC is this year. Arizona State was coached by Bobby Hurley who most believe is a better and more experienced than Andy. So if you are saying Wojo needs to do it to prove something then he already did. If he needs to do it to prove this year then I would point out that he won the Legends but didn’t make the NCAA that year so it is meaningless. Last year he lost to Kansas but beat Louisville in NIT. He also beat Wisconsin at the Kohl the year prior but only made NIT.  He lost to IU but still made the tourney so those games have little to show in terms of measuring.

Next you point out a bunch of “head scratchers” but at least two who are anything but. Carlino was the best grad transfer available after Buzz left the team and was second team Big East. He was also an above average player prior to coming to MU. Wally was a means to get Henry which worked so not really a head scratcher.
Wow all Big East 2nd Team???  Impressive!!!  There's no politics in who makes All Big East and/or to make sure every team walks away with a participation trophy in the snowflake era?  In addition they appointed 7 players to the "First Team" that year when the NCAA rule book by my bed says that only 5 players are allowed to share the court at any given time????   

In reality Carlino was good for some hot games but was an average player at best on a horrible MU team.  I saw him play against DePaul that year where he and Juan Anderson stunk up the Allstate as we ended up losing to an Oliver Purnell coached DePaul team which was a very hard thing to do. 

Wojo should have given John Dawson and Duane Wilson the reigns to the point guard position that year and stayed loyal to the players who didn't transfer when he was announced as our new coach.  Instead he brought in Carlino the chucker and sparingly played Deonte Burton who ended up following Dawson by transferring at the semester.  So the next year we had to break in some more freshmen as our one year rental was gone and so was Dawson who could have developed into a workable player for us.   

USC with last year's 7th rated recruiting class and 18th rated class the year before is arguably weaker than the ASU Bobby Hurley team we beat when he was just starting as their new coach.  In addition since then Bobby has done terrific as manifested by his 91-64 NCAA first round loss to Buffalo last year and therefore makes that ASU win just that much more impressive.  Also beating a Chris Mack led Louisville team coming off the Pitino carnage in the constellation game was huge as well and should have lifted us to a 2 seed by the selection committee. 

On the other hand this year's test against Coach Enfield, who took a team from a new school on the SW coast of Florida and renamed it Dunk City after they inexplicably made the Sweet 16 should clearly be undersold.  Instead let's rewrite history to beef up Wojo's underwhelming Marquette resume and make sure all the Wojo zombies go to bed tonight with strict instructions to hump their Wojo dolls!     

Thanks for all the "logic" and setting me straight. ;D
« Last Edit: September 17, 2019, 09:27:45 AM by duanewade »

BallBoy

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Re: The next big test for Wojo is......
« Reply #22 on: September 16, 2019, 10:52:02 PM »
Wow all Big East 2nd Team???  Impressive!!!  There's no politics in who makes All Big East and/or to make sure every team walks away with a participation trophy in the snowflake era?  In addition they appointed 7 players to the "First Team" that year when the NCAA rule book by my bed says that only 5 players are allowed to share the court at any given time????   

In reality Carlino was good for some hot games but was an average player at best on a horrible MU team.  I saw him play against DePaul that year where he and Juan Anderson stunk up the Allstate as we ended up losing to an Oliver Purnell coached DePaul team which was a very hard thing to do. 

Wojo should have given John Dawson and Duane Wilson the reigns to the point guard position that year and stayed loyal to the players who didn't transfer when he was announced as our new coach.  Instead he brought in the Carlino the chucker and sparingly played Deonte Burton who ended up following Dawson by transferring at the semester.  So the next year we had to break in some more freshmen as our one year rental was gone and so was Dawson who could have developed into a workable player for us.   

USC with last year's 7th rated recruiting class and 18th rated class the year before is arguably weaker than the ASU Bobby Hurley team we beat when he was just starting as their new coach.  In addition since then Bobby has done terrific as manifested by his 91-64 NCAA first round loss to Buffalo last year and therefore makes that ASU win just that much more impressive.  Also beating beating a Chris Mack led Louisville team coming off the Pitino carnage in the constellation game was huge as well and should have lifted us to a 2 seed by the selection committee. 

On the other hand this year's test against Coach Enfield, who took a team from a new school on the SW coast of Florida and renamed it Dunk City after they inexplicably made the Sweet 16 should clearly be undersold.  Instead let's rewrite history to beef up Wojo's underwhelming Marquette resume and make sure all the Wojo zombies go to bed tonight with strict instructions to hump their Wojo dolls!     

Thanks for all the "logic" and setting me straight. ;D

You lost all credibility with this post. First, USC has played in the worst Major conference in the last 5 years. They had a losing record last year. Even with a 24-12 record the year before they still played in the NIT. You are projecting them being good solely based on recruiting ranks but fail to acknowledge that in 2015 we played the number one recruit in the country in Simmons yet still won.  Enfield’s conference record is 44-64 during his time at USC and has been under .500 three times. The only thing of note that he won was a Atlantic Sun conference title. Wow! Amazing!   Did he have a nice run a FGCU? Absolutely but he built a team on transfers and got out of town because it was a flash in the pan run.

Next you call out two recruiting classes of which an assistant coach pleaded guilty and was fired as part of the bribery scandal. The assistant, Bland, and three of the players were named. Sounds like a clean program. Many are noting that more could be named and that without Bland, USC won’t have as much recruiting success.

The Big East was still a significantly better conference and Carlino was top 7. Make it top 25 and he is still a good player which is far from a head scratcher.

You bring up Magic Dawson who downgraded his competition and he was nowhere near as good as Carlino. Not even close.  He barely plays in the G-League. That means you were bypassed across all of Europe and as a starter in the G-League.  In a worse league he wasn’t first or second team so they must not hand out participation trophies to everyone.

Burton was leaving no matter what. He said as much in multiple interviews. Magic Dawson has no impact on that. Wilson also had the keys that year and had a good rookie year. His injuries caught up to him later on.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2019, 11:23:36 PM by BallBoy »

Cheeks

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Re: The next big test for Wojo is......
« Reply #23 on: September 16, 2019, 10:57:09 PM »
NCAA tournament games are the most important games a team plays.

Which might be why I said arguably, because if you don’t win enough of them the ncaatournament games will not be played at all.   Postseason doesn’t happen without a good season.
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Cheeks

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Re: The next big test for Wojo is......
« Reply #24 on: September 16, 2019, 11:00:08 PM »
Wow all Big East 2nd Team???  Impressive!!!  There's no politics in who makes All Big East and/or to make sure every team walks away with a participation trophy in the snowflake era?  In addition they appointed 7 players to the "First Team" that year when the NCAA rule book by my bed says that only 5 players are allowed to share the court at any given time????   

In reality Carlino was good for some hot games but was an average player at best on a horrible MU team.  I saw him play against DePaul that year where he and Juan Anderson stunk up the Allstate as we ended up losing to an Oliver Purnell coached DePaul team which was a very hard thing to do. 

Wojo should have given John Dawson and Duane Wilson the reigns to the point guard position that year and stayed loyal to the players who didn't transfer when he was announced as our new coach.  Instead he brought in the Carlino the chucker and sparingly played Deonte Burton who ended up following Dawson by transferring at the semester.  So the next year we had to break in some more freshmen as our one year rental was gone and so was Dawson who could have developed into a workable player for us.   

USC with last year's 7th rated recruiting class and 18th rated class the year before is arguably weaker than the ASU Bobby Hurley team we beat when he was just starting as their new coach.  In addition since then Bobby has done terrific as manifested by his 91-64 NCAA first round loss to Buffalo last year and therefore makes that ASU win just that much more impressive.  Also beating beating a Chris Mack led Louisville team coming off the Pitino carnage in the constellation game was huge as well and should have lifted us to a 2 seed by the selection committee. 

On the other hand this year's test against Coach Enfield, who took a team from a new school on the SW coast of Florida and renamed it Dunk City after they inexplicably made the Sweet 16 should clearly be undersold.  Instead let's rewrite history to beef up Wojo's underwhelming Marquette resume and make sure all the Wojo zombies go to bed tonight with strict instructions to hump their Wojo dolls!     

Thanks for all the "logic" and setting me straight. ;D

And yet each year a number of teams do not have players on any of the All Big East team selections so that killed that argument.  How’s Becky going to be this year?
”The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers.”
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