Last Ditch MLB Thread

[WI inferiority Complexes]

To return to our "is Derek Jeter overrated?" discussion, (Locked Thread #2), a writer voted for Jeter-- and only Jeter-- on this year's ballot.

https://www.newsday.com/sports/columnists/anthony-rieber/baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot-derek-jeter-1.38802412

[Jockey]

I don’t think he is the only voter who will do this. He obviously deserves to be in, but I thought the article was ridiculous.

Would Jeter be considered a “winner” if he had played his entire career in San Diego or Pittsburgh or Minnesota? Of course not. There would be no one saying that. But when you play your entire career for the biggest spending team ever, it’s kinda easy to be a winner.

[The Hippie Satan of Hyperbole]

To return to our "is Derek Jeter overrated?" discussion, (Locked Thread #2), a writer voted for Jeter-- and only Jeter-- on this year's ballot.

https://www.newsday.com/sports/columnists/anthony-rieber/baseball-hall-of-fame-ballot-derek-jeter-1.38802412

First sentence: “Derek Jeter was a singular player and person in baseball history.”

Dear lord...

[shoothoops]

First of all, great discussion and I am enjoying the back and forth. Even if I don't agree with you guys, this is what baseball is about!!!!!

First of all, I'm not disgusted with Pujols as a free agent. I'm disappointed that the loyalty factor isn't there. Recall, I also said that if they want to go for the gold, I don't begrudge them.

----

As for the owners, look, this isn't 1965 or even 1975. The Major League Baseball Players Association may be the most powerful union in America. To the extent that the owners are suffering, they did it to themselves with their incessant and immoral defense of the Reserve Clause. The players didn't trust the owners back then and that distrust has been handled down from generation to generation of MLB fan.

There are some really good owners -- like Bill DeWitt or the O'Malleys in Los Angeles or even the despised King George. And then there's the Miami Marlins. Logical baseball city, good solid market, living off transfer payments from teams that violate the salary cap. 

I think of Reggie as New York, even though America's favorite flavor of hot dog and candy bar played first for Oakland and Baltimore. And, no, I don't think Pujols will get a statue. The only Cardinals that have a small one after leaving for another team (as I recall) appeared to be Slaughter, who played past his prime in New York and Schoendiest, who played past his prime in Milwaukee.

Honoring Pujols on Stadium Plaza is like honoring Steve Carlton there too. Not going to happen!

One of the safest bets around is that Pujols will be honored by the Cardinals when he retires. Again, respectfully, I believe you are confusing your opinion of a player vs the opinion of a team/organization, and masses of a large fan base which are different than yours. Pujols played 11 seasons as one of the best in baseball during that time. and, as an all time great. He was remarkably underpaid during that time. The Cardinals made the post season 7 times in his 11 years there and won two World Series Titles.

 Based on your feelings here you wouldn’t have likely been a Reggie Jackson fan if you were an Athletics fan. Jackson won more WS Titles there than NYC. He was an MVP at both and split his all stars with both (14) How could you not think of both teams? Is Jackson loyal, iconic to you? Yep. But AP isn’t?  You said you were, “disappointed the loyalty factor wasn’t there” for Pujols. Jackson left the Athletics (where he was an MVP, 3 WS titles, several time all star, etc...for more money elsewhere. Do you see how your point perhaps seems very inconsistent at best? You like Reggie as a Yankee, but that doesn’t change all of those 9 years with the Athletics and the way he left. You don’t like the way Albert left but it was in the same way, and unlike Reggie he was paid far under fair market value for 11 years of his services.

You said no honors for AP because other Cardinal Hall of Famers that finished elsewhere don’t have them.....except.....Dean, Hornsby, 
Schoendist, Slaughter, Sutter, Sisler (Browns), Cool Papa Bell (Stars) all have those honors at Busch and none finished their careers there...Brock, Gibson, Smith, Musial are the HOF-ers that finished there.

It comes across as though you just pick and choose with inconsistent reasoning based on your own personal feelings for a player, or team etc...and that’s fine, nothing wrong with that. But your personal likes and dislikes may be different from the actual facts or the opinions of a larger group.

I believe you are a bit removed or out of the loop when reading the feelings of the Cardinals team management and fan base when it comes to Pujols, perhaps, confusing your sour grapes with their red carpet treatment so to speak.

[dgies9156]

One of the safest bets around is that Pujols will be honored by the Cardinals when he retires. Again, respectfully, I believe you are confusing your opinion of a player vs the opinion of a team/organization, and masses of a large fan base which are different than yours. Pujols played 11 seasons as one of the best in baseball during that time. and, as an all time great. He was remarkably underpaid during that time. The Cardinals made the post season 7 times in his 11 years there and won two World Series Titles.

 Based on your feelings here you wouldn’t have likely been a Reggie Jackson fan if you were an Athletics fan. Jackson won more WS Titles there than NYC. He was an MVP at both and split his all stars with both (14) How could you not think of both teams? Is Jackson loyal, iconic to you? Yep. But AP isn’t?  You said you were, “disappointed the loyalty factor wasn’t there” for Pujols. Jackson left the Athletics (where he was an MVP, 3 WS titles, several time all star, etc...for more money elsewhere. Do you see how your point perhaps seems very inconsistent at best? You like Reggie as a Yankee, but that doesn’t change all of those 9 years with the Athletics and the way he left. You don’t like the way Albert left but it was in the same way, and unlike Reggie he was paid far under fair market value for 11 years of his services.

You said no honors for AP because other Cardinal Hall of Famers that finished elsewhere don’t have them.....except.....Dean, Hornsby, 
Schoendist, Slaughter, Sutter, Sisler (Browns), Cool Papa Bell (Stars) all have those honors at Busch and none finished their careers there...Brock, Gibson, Smith, Musial are the HOF-ers that finished there.

It comes across as though you just pick and choose with inconsistent reasoning based on your own personal feelings for a player, or team etc...and that’s fine, nothing wrong with that. But your personal likes and dislikes may be different from the actual facts or the opinions of a larger group.

I believe you are a bit removed or out of the loop when reading the feelings of the Cardinals team management and fan base when it comes to Pujols, perhaps, confusing your sour grapes with their red carpet treatment so to speak.

We'll see over time who is right. You may well be and I can't say I blame the Cardinals if they do honor Pujols. And, I'll concede most of Cardinal nation probably has a different feeling about the guy than I do based on the ovation Pujols received when he was at Busch III last summer.

You're probably also right that my feelings about Albert today arise  from the Pujols departure. In time, all wounds are healed and maybe even this one. Heck, I even like Steve Carlton and think much of the Cardinal malaise of the 1970s started the day he and Gussie Busch could not close a $5,000 negotiating gap. The Cardinals were boobs for letting him go over that.

As to Reggie, if I was an Oakland As fan (and I thought those teams in the 1970s were something special), I would have hated Owner Charlie Finley for allowing what happened there to happen. Finley was a visionary but he was cheap  and dishonest and never exploited the special nature of what he had the way Steinbrenner did when Reggie got to New York. And if you're going to talk about genuinely great teams and the way the wheels flew off, the 1976 Cincinnati Reds and the way their ownership treated their players qualifies.

The Reds had HOFers in Johnny Bench, Pete Rose (a Cincinnati native), Joe Morgan and Tony Perez and let them all go because GM Bob Howsam had a saying: "Make no change and make it retroactive." Yes, I know, Rose is not in the HOF, but he should be.

My point is that things are a two-way street, as you point out Brother Shoothoops, between owners and players. The distrust that goes back generations between owners and players is in no small measure what I'm griping about and is a key issue in why we have the free agency we have today. The aforementioned Carlton problem was legendary and Peoples Exhibit Number 1 for why we can't just blame the players.

End of the day, despite my feelings, Albert is a great player who belongs in the HOF. If the Cardinals choose to honor him with a statue next to Musial's, go for it.

P.S. -- Cool Papa Bell SHOULD have played for the St. Louis Cardinals. He never did because of racism and discrimination that prevailed in the 1930s and 1940s in baseball. Thank you, Commissioner Landis. He has a statue erected in his honor at Busch because of his Negro League achievements and because he was a long-time St. Louis resident. The other major Cardinal statues are Brock, Gibson and Musial.

[shoothoops]

We'll see over time who is right. You may well be and I can't say I blame the Cardinals if they do honor Pujols. And, I'll concede most of Cardinal nation probably has a different feeling about the guy than I do based on the ovation Pujols received when he was at Busch III last summer.

You're probably also right that my feelings about Albert today arise  from the Pujols departure. In time, all wounds are healed and maybe even this one. Heck, I even like Steve Carlton and think much of the Cardinal malaise of the 1970s started the day he and Gussie Busch could not close a $5,000 negotiating gap. The Cardinals were boobs for letting him go over that.

As to Reggie, if I was an Oakland As fan (and I thought those teams in the 1970s were something special), I would have hated Owner Charlie Finley for allowing what happened there to happen. Finley was a visionary but he was cheap  and dishonest and never exploited the special nature of what he had the way Steinbrenner did when Reggie got to New York. And if you're going to talk about genuinely great teams and the way the wheels flew off, the 1976 Cincinnati Reds and the way their ownership treated their players qualifies.

The Reds had HOFers in Johnny Bench, Pete Rose (a Cincinnati native), Joe Morgan and Tony Perez and let them all go because GM Bob Howsam had a saying: "Make no change and make it retroactive." Yes, I know, Rose is not in the HOF, but he should be.

My point is that things are a two-way street, as you point out Brother Shoothoops, between owners and players. The distrust that goes back generations between owners and players is in no small measure what I'm griping about and is a key issue in why we have the free agency we have today. The aforementioned Carlton problem was legendary and Peoples Exhibit Number 1 for why we can't just blame the players.

End of the day, despite my feelings, Albert is a great player who belongs in the HOF. If the Cardinals choose to honor him with a statue next to Musial's, go for it.

P.S. -- Cool Papa Bell SHOULD have played for the St. Louis Cardinals. He never did because of racism and discrimination that prevailed in the 1930s and 1940s in baseball. Thank you, Commissioner Landis. He has a statue erected in his honor at Busch because of his Negro League achievements and because he was a long-time St. Louis resident. The other major Cardinal statues are Brock, Gibson and Musial.

No disagreements here. 👍

Carlton will go down historically as one of the worst Cardinal trades ever. (He does deserve to be honored in some way at Busch in my opinion)

I'm not sure you keep up with it but The Cardinals do also have a Team Hall of Fame. And that includes some really good players that may not be MLB HOF players as well as the Cards MLB HOF players. You may find that interesting and enjoyable as well

[WarriorDad]

Some explanations on home run increases during the season and decreases during the playoffs.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28273986/uptick-home-runs-attributed-seam-heights-batting-techniques-not-juiced-balls

[Jockey]

Some explanations on home run increases during the season and decreases during the playoffs.

https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/28273986/uptick-home-runs-attributed-seam-heights-batting-techniques-not-juiced-balls

Seam height - or lack thereof - is part of the juicing of the ball.

[jficke13]

MU Alum Ritchie Donnelly did a report on that earlier this year too:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CvJmEVK4r0U&app=desktop

[Billy Hoyle]

something to track: rumblings that Kris Bryant may be on his way out of Chicago

[DegenerateDish]

something to track: rumblings that Kris Bryant may be on his way out of Chicago

That's been on track for a few years now, not much of a surprise if/when it happens. They know he's not re-signing there.

[ZiggysFryBoy]

That's been on track for a few years now, not much of a surprise if/when it happens. They know he's not re-signing there.

F-ing with his sevice years guaranteed that.  Shirt sighted by the chubs.

[🏀]

F-ing with his sevice years guaranteed that.  Shirt sighted by the chubs.

Kris wants 7-8 WAR money when he’s a 4-5 WAR guy is the biggest issue.

[Cheeks]

The baseball seam height difference is 5/1000th of an inch per Dr Hosoi, about the thickness of a human hair.

Within the tolerances of the Manufacturing specs of the baseball?  That’s the key. 

[JWags85]

Kris wants 7-8 WAR money when he’s a 4-5 WAR guy is the biggest issue.

Not even that.  Granted some injuries, but he's been sub 4 WAR the last couple years.

Thats not to pardon the Cubs though.  They are being absolute morons right now pleading poverty.  I agree Bryant was never going to resign given the service date mess, but Rizzo is the heart and soul of the franchise right now and wants to be a Cub for life.  His happiness and buy in is vital to helping this transition with David Ross and any hope of them being further successful with the remaining young talent.  Lock up Javy and Rizzo, and figure it out.

[🏀]

Not even that.  Granted some injuries, but he's been sub 4 WAR the last couple years.

Thats not to pardon the Cubs though.  They are being absolute morons right now pleading poverty.  I agree Bryant was never going to resign given the service date mess, but Rizzo is the heart and soul of the franchise right now and wants to be a Cub for life.  His happiness and buy in is vital to helping this transition with David Ross and any hope of them being further successful with the remaining young talent.  Lock up Javy and Rizzo, and figure it out.

Has the 'heart and soul' of this franchise really been that good of thing? It's a team that has vastly under performed and straight up stunk in crucial situations.

What are you giving Rizzo then?

 

[Pakuni]

Not even that.  Granted some injuries, but he's been sub 4 WAR the last couple years.

Thats not to pardon the Cubs though.  They are being absolute morons right now pleading poverty.  I agree Bryant was never going to resign given the service date mess, but Rizzo is the heart and soul of the franchise right now and wants to be a Cub for life.  His happiness and buy in is vital to helping this transition with David Ross and any hope of them being further successful with the remaining young talent.  Lock up Javy and Rizzo, and figure it out.

Rizzo is locked up through 2021, after which he'll be 32 years old and almost certainly be a player in decline ... if he isn't already. Extending him now may be popular in the clubhouse and in the stands but - barring some kind of hometown discount - probably isn't a smart baseball move.

[MU82]

Lock up Javy and Rizzo, and figure it out.

Lock up Addison, too ... oh wait ... that's a whole 'nother subject.

Rizzo is locked up through 2021, after which he'll be 32 years old and almost certainly be a player in decline ... if he isn't already. Extending him now may be popular in the clubhouse and in the stands but - barring some kind of hometown discount - probably isn't a smart baseball move.

Agree on this. Maybe Rizzo is willing to give that huge discount, though. Have figures been thrown around yet?

[WI inferiority Complexes]

Has the 'heart and soul' of this franchise really been that good of thing? It's a team that has vastly under performed and straight up stunk in crucial situations.

Since the start of the 2015 season, the Cubs have played a total of 5 games while out of playoff contention, while winning a World Series and playing in 3 NLCS.  I can think of a few crucial situations when the team (including its "heart and soul") did not straight up stink.

[JWags85]

Since the start of the 2015 season, the Cubs have played a total of 5 games while out of playoff contention, while winning a World Series and playing in 3 NLCS.  I can think of a few crucial situations when the team (including its "heart and soul") did not straight up stink.

Exactly.  I don't think any Cubs fan was happy about the ending of 2018 and the home stretch of 2019, but this has been a really good team for the last 5 years.  Would have been nice to have another WS in that stretch, but its really hard to win multiple in a short window.

Agree on this. Maybe Rizzo is willing to give that huge discount, though. Have figures been thrown around yet?

Not that Ive seen.  His current deal is $16.5 a year.  Hosmer isn't a terrible comp and he got 8/144 recently.  Goldschmidt is 5/130. So you could probably see Rizzo at like $20 a year in the open market.  Could potentially get the hometown discount and maybe do like 5/90?

[Cheeks]

Decade is over.  WAR leader for each position.  Some guys didn’t even play entire decade (Trout, etc) but still led at their position.

https://www.axios.com/mlb-wins-above-replacement-leaders-pitchers-c338e513-94c0-4f3c-971e-1c072636389e.html

[GB Warrior]

Decade is over.  WAR leader for each position.  Some guys didn’t even play entire decade (Trout, etc) but still led at their position.

https://www.axios.com/mlb-wins-above-replacement-leaders-pitchers-c338e513-94c0-4f3c-971e-1c072636389e.html

Pity he wasn't on a better team or he'd be the best player of this generation

[Lennys Tap]

Decade is over.  WAR leader for each position.  Some guys didn’t even play entire decade (Trout, etc) but still led at their position.

https://www.axios.com/mlb-wins-above-replacement-leaders-pitchers-c338e513-94c0-4f3c-971e-1c072636389e.html

Wow. Guess that Trout guy is pretty good. Who knew?