collapse

* Resources


UDM 4

* 2018-2019 SOTG


2018-19 Season SoG Tally
Howard11
S Hauser4
John4
Anim3
Chartouny2

'17-18 * '16-17 *
'15-16'14-15 * '13-14
'12-13 * '11-12 * '10-11

* Big East Standings

Please Register - It's FREE!

The absolute only thing required for this FREE registration is a valid e-mail address.  We keep all your information confidential and will NEVER give or sell it to anyone else.
Login to get rid of this box (and ads) , or register NOW!

* Next up: St. Norbert (Exhibition)

Marquette
Marquette vs

St Norbert

Date/Time: Oct 29, 2019 - 7:00pm
TV: None
Schedule for 2019-20
24-10

Author Topic: Oh, how the worm can turn.  (Read 10095 times)

4everwarriors

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 13535
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #225 on: September 19, 2019, 12:00:58 PM »
Im sure there's "pressure" on Wojo to win an ncaa game. But whether or not he does has nothing to do with him getting fired.



Den ders somethin' fundamentally rong wit how da university looks at men's basketball, aina?
"Give 'Em Hell, Al"

4everwarriors

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 13535
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #226 on: September 19, 2019, 12:02:49 PM »
Wood bee grate ta have a gig wear results no matta, hey?
"Give 'Em Hell, Al"

Cheeks

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3712
  • Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #227 on: September 19, 2019, 12:38:16 PM »
Wood bee grate ta have a gig wear results no matta, hey?

Doc

Depends what the results criteria is.

Field competitive team....check
Finish upper division in conf....check
Recruit good great players....check
Drive revenue, tickets.....check
Run a clean program....check
Do well against rivals.....check
Keep program away from embarrassing public issues....check

Literally the only one he hasn’t done is win a NCAA tournament game...he has won several NIT games. 


« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 08:22:01 PM by Cheeks »
”The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers.”
― Thomas Jefferson

Cheeks

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 3712
  • Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #228 on: September 19, 2019, 12:40:09 PM »
You are basically comparing Wojo's best work to their worst and saying somehow because his best compared with something they did, it is OK.  When you get there always and play 50 NCAA tournament games you are going to have the occasional stinker.  When you get there twice and have a stinker both times, that is not the same thing.  I think any reasonable person would have a lot more doubt about a guy who hasn't proven himself vs. on who has.

A reasonable person would also compare what they did in their 3rd year or 5th year as a D1 head coach....and most of these guys didn’t even make the ncaa tournament in their first five years at the helm or also suffered without wins. 

Here’s the thing, say this year Wojo wins three NCAA games....suddenly he is a good coach? Or was it the matchups?

Say Wojo is fired, his next gig he goes to Sweet 16...suddenly he is a good coach?  You guys out so much emphasis on one game where anything can happen....how do you know of Wojo’s stinkers didn’t happen in his first two tries....and shouldn’t the stinkers you talk about above NOT be happening at schools with HOF coaches and better talent?  Isn’t that the point of having. The HOF coach and the better talent, to avoid the stinkers?
« Last Edit: September 19, 2019, 12:43:28 PM by Cheeks »
”The man who reads nothing at all is better educated than the man who reads nothing but newspapers.”
― Thomas Jefferson

Galway Eagle

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 6074
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #229 on: September 19, 2019, 12:52:53 PM »
A reasonable person would also compare what they did in their 3rd year or 5th year as a D1 head coach....and most of these guys didn’t even make the ncaa tournament in their first five years at the helm or also suffered without wins. 

Here’s the thing, say this year Wojo wins three NCAA games....suddenly he is a good coach? Or was it the matchups?

Say Wojo is fired, his next gig he goes to Sweet 16...suddenly he is a good coach?  You guys out so much emphasis on one game where anything can happen....how do you know of Wojo’s stinkers didn’t happen in his first two tries....and shouldn’t the stinkers you talk about above NOT be happening at schools with HOF coaches and better talent?  Isn’t that the point of having. The HOF coach and the better talent, to avoid the stinkers?

Look even if he wins the championship he still didn't go to the NCAA with Buzz's crappy leftovers, our first burger boy, or with two under six foot three point shooters so it's obvious he's a bad coach.
“More the knowledge, lesser the ego. Lesser the knowledge, more the ego.” Albert Einstein a note for some posters

Lennys Tap

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 9673
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #230 on: September 19, 2019, 01:41:51 PM »
A reasonable person would also compare what they did in their 3rd year or 5th year as a D1 head coach....and most of these guys didn’t even make the ncaa tournament in their first five years at the helm or also suffered without wins. 

Here’s the thing, say this year Wojo wins three NCAA games....suddenly he is a good coach? Or was it the matchups?

Say Wojo is fired, his next gig he goes to Sweet 16...suddenly he is a good coach?  You guys out so much emphasis on one game where anything can happen....how do you know of Wojo’s stinkers didn’t happen in his first two tries....and shouldn’t the stinkers you talk about above NOT be happening at schools with HOF coaches and better talent?  Isn’t that the point of having. The HOF coach and the better talent, to avoid the stinkers?

What if Wojo wins 3 NCAA tournament games this year? What is he leaves Marquette and makes the Sweet 16 elsewhere? The "what if?" game is fun, especially when facts/history don't paint a rosy picture. Fun fact: last MU coach to last 5 years and not win an NCAA tournament game in those 5 years? Bill Chandler. In 1935.

Lennys Tap

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 9673
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #231 on: September 19, 2019, 01:52:22 PM »
Doc

Depends what the results criteria is.

Field competitive team....check
Finish upper division in conf....check
Recruit good great players....check
Drive revenue, tickets.....check
Run a clean program....check
Keep program away from embarrassing public issues....check

Literally the only one he hasn’t done is win a NCAA tournament game...he has won several NIT games.

So Mike Deane, except Mike actually won an NCAA game. Sweet.

GOO

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1160
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #232 on: September 19, 2019, 02:10:01 PM »
So Mike Deane, except Mike actually won an NCAA game. Sweet.
You are remembering some of Dean's accomplishments in a way to favorable light compared to Wojo.  Especially if you are putting check marks next to the list that Cheeks put up for Dean.

tower912

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 14802
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #233 on: September 19, 2019, 02:18:45 PM »
To call Deane a good recruiter is ridiculous.
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

Herman Cain

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 7303
  • 9-9-9
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #234 on: September 19, 2019, 02:22:16 PM »
So Mike Deane, except Mike actually won an NCAA game. Sweet.
Early on I put out a poll asking if Wojo would be able to perform better than Mike Deane. I put the same poll out midway through Wojo’s tenure.  Now that both have 5 years we see the results ,as you point out , are similar.

Galway Eagle

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 6074
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #235 on: September 19, 2019, 02:23:29 PM »
Early on I put out a poll asking if Wojo would be able to perform better than Mike Deane. I put the same poll out midway through Wojo’s tenure.  Now that both have 5 years we see the results ,as you point out , are similar.

They aren't really though. The nit is considerably harder to get into now. The conference is considerably harder. The recruiting is better moving forward
“More the knowledge, lesser the ego. Lesser the knowledge, more the ego.” Albert Einstein a note for some posters

Pakuni

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 7294
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #236 on: September 19, 2019, 02:25:41 PM »
So Mike Deane, except Mike actually won an NCAA game. Sweet.

Did you prefer Mike Deane?

TAMU Eagle

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 16004
  • A Reading from Wojo's 1st Slide to the Marquettens
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #237 on: September 19, 2019, 02:30:29 PM »
In terms of post-Al MU coaches, I think Wojo is firmly in the 4th or 5th position. Clearly ahead of Majerus, Dukiet, and Deane. Clearly behind KO, Crean, and Buzz. I don't know where to put Hank, better record but inherited a powerhouse and was the first step in a long downward slide. We'll see if Wojo climbs the ranks or if he's reached his ceiling.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper

Lennys Tap

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 9673
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #238 on: September 19, 2019, 02:34:45 PM »
Did you prefer Mike Deane?

No.

My point was/is that the bar that Chico sets is arbitrary and not particularly high regarding on court performance.

Pakuni

  • Registered User
  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 7294
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #239 on: September 19, 2019, 02:46:31 PM »
No.

My point was/is that the bar that Chico sets is arbitrary and not particularly high regarding on court performance.

Of course it is, but so is judging a coach's entire tenure by NCAA tournament wins.
Wojo has fallen short in that category, and that's worthy of criticism. It also shouldn't be the only lens through which he's judged.

Silent Verbal

  • Team Captain
  • ****
  • Posts: 302
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #240 on: September 19, 2019, 03:09:52 PM »
In terms of post-Al MU coaches, I think Wojo is firmly in the 4th or 5th position. Clearly ahead of Majerus, Dukiet, and Deane. Clearly behind KO, Crean, and Buzz. I don't know where to put Hank, better record but inherited a powerhouse and was the first step in a long downward slide. We'll see if Wojo climbs the ranks or if he's reached his ceiling.

To say that Wojo’s “firmly in the 4th or 5th position” of coaches post-Al isn’t really saying anything.  Buzz, Crean, and KO, in their first five years at MU, all did *way* better than Wojo in terms of actual results.  Wojo might be 4th, but the gap is enormous.

As far as what Wojo has actually accomplished, Deane is, unfortunately, his best comparison so far.  Wojo is a better recruiter than Deane, but that’s about it.  And that’s not saying anything, either.

Galway Eagle

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 6074
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #241 on: September 19, 2019, 03:15:03 PM »
To say that Wojo’s “firmly in the 4th or 5th position” of coaches post-Al isn’t really saying anything.  Buzz, Crean, and KO, in their first five years at MU, all did *way* better than Wojo in terms of actual results.  Wojo might be 4th, but the gap is enormous.

As far as what Wojo has actually accomplished, Deane is, unfortunately, his best comparison so far.  Wojo is a better recruiter than Deane, but that’s about it.  And that’s not saying anything, either.

O'Neil is not "way better" than Wojo. O'Neil capped off a 24-9 10-2 season with a sweet 16. Impressive yes but just as many wins as wojos best year except O'Neil needed a sweet 16 to get there.

I'd say Crean and Buzz were way better and that O'Neil is marginally better just because he rebuilt us from complete ashes.
“More the knowledge, lesser the ego. Lesser the knowledge, more the ego.” Albert Einstein a note for some posters

Fluffy Blue Monster

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1735
  • When I'm in Holland I eat the pannenkoeken
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #242 on: September 19, 2019, 03:18:36 PM »
O'Neil is not "way better" than Wojo. O'Neil capped off a 24-9 10-2 season with a sweet 16. Impressive yes but just as many wins as wojos best year except O'Neil needed a sweet 16 to get there.

I'd say Crean and Buzz were way better and that O'Neil is marginally better just because he rebuilt us from complete ashes.


I don't think you understand the depths from which O'Neill took the Marquette program.  He was a better coach than Crean.
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

Fluffy Blue Monster

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1735
  • When I'm in Holland I eat the pannenkoeken
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #243 on: September 19, 2019, 03:19:22 PM »
To say that Wojo’s “firmly in the 4th or 5th position” of coaches post-Al isn’t really saying anything.  Buzz, Crean, and KO, in their first five years at MU, all did *way* better than Wojo in terms of actual results.  Wojo might be 4th, but the gap is enormous.

Which is why he said "Clearly behind KO, Crean, and Buzz."
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

Galway Eagle

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 6074
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #244 on: September 19, 2019, 03:24:15 PM »

I don't think you understand the depths from which O'Neill took the Marquette program.  He was a better coach than Crean.

I feel like the line "complete ashes" gives enough acknowledgement to how bad we were. But he did still have Tony Smith.
“More the knowledge, lesser the ego. Lesser the knowledge, more the ego.” Albert Einstein a note for some posters

Uncle Rico

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 652
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #245 on: September 19, 2019, 03:27:23 PM »
I find it interesting KO, TC and Buzz all left on their own.  Don’t know what that means, but it is interesting

Very few coaches stay in one spot for a career.  Is that good or bad?  I’m not sure. 
Alleged Slurper

Fluffy Blue Monster

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 1735
  • When I'm in Holland I eat the pannenkoeken
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #246 on: September 19, 2019, 03:29:17 PM »
Again, if you understood what it was like then, I don't think you would have any question that O'Neill was a better coach than Wojo.  Not even close.  Just having Tony Smith, who was a gem, isn't going to completely make up for a terrible roster.  (I mean, I liked Trevor Powell, but when he's your second best player, that's a problem.)
“True patriotism hates injustice in its own land more than anywhere else.”  -Clarence Darrow

Uncle Rico

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 652
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #247 on: September 19, 2019, 03:33:37 PM »
I feel like the line "complete ashes" gives enough acknowledgement to how bad we were. But he did still have Tony Smith.

Someone can correct me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t there some grumblings about what KO had accomplished before the Sweet 16 season?

He certainly inherited a bigger mess than any coach in the post-Al era and guided Marquette into the Great Midwest but I seem to recall pretty big expectations heading into 92-93 and they ended up a 12-seed.  They also needed to upset Kentucky in the ‘94 tournament to advance, as a 6-seed. 

Not sure if any of that means anything relevant to today
Alleged Slurper

Lennys Tap

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 9673
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #248 on: September 19, 2019, 03:43:50 PM »
Of course it is, but so is judging a coach's entire tenure by NCAA tournament wins.
Wojo has fallen short in that category, and that's worthy of criticism. It also shouldn't be the only lens through which he's judged.

Not the only lens. B-/C+ for the regular season, an F the two times he's taken a "final". Overall, a C from me, but I've not given up - hope better days are ahead.

TAMU Eagle

  • All American
  • *****
  • Posts: 16004
  • A Reading from Wojo's 1st Slide to the Marquettens
Re: Oh, how the worm can turn.
« Reply #249 on: September 19, 2019, 06:00:40 PM »
To say that Wojo’s “firmly in the 4th or 5th position” of coaches post-Al isn’t really saying anything.  Buzz, Crean, and KO, in their first five years at MU, all did *way* better than Wojo in terms of actual results.  Wojo might be 4th, but the gap is enormous.

I don't think I said anything different.

As far as what Wojo has actually accomplished, Deane is, unfortunately, his best comparison so far.  Wojo is a better recruiter than Deane, but that’s about it.  And that’s not saying anything, either.

I don't think there's any logical comparison to Deane. He won with KO's leftovers and got worse every year. Wojo lost with Buzz' leftover and got better every year. Honestly, I don't think there's a good comparison for Wojo among former MU coaches.  KO, Crean, and Buzz all won a lot quicker. Deane, Dukiet, and Majerus all got worse every year. Wojo has gotten better every year but it's been a lot slower than the top 3. Maybe Hank is the best comparison? Taking over for one of the best and doing okay, but not great? At least not yet.
God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
The courage to change the things I can,
And the wisdom to know the difference.

~Prayer of the Scooper