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Author Topic: Crowder & Hayward to HOF  (Read 14694 times)

tower912

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #225 on: August 20, 2019, 07:09:25 PM »
I didn't think Lazar had a ghost of a chance. 
Luke 6:45   ...A good man produces goodness from the good in his heart; an evil man produces evil out of his store of evil.   Each man speaks from his heart's abundance...

rocky_warrior

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #226 on: August 20, 2019, 07:46:33 PM »
I didn't think Lazar had a ghost of a chance.

Hah!

And way to bring this back to the topic :-)

Billy Hoyle

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #227 on: August 20, 2019, 10:27:36 PM »
Incorrect.  Here’s an example, guy has 20 credits of physical education and transfers to MU who has no Phys Ed major and thus all or nearly all of the credits do not transfer.  Now do the same calculus with any number of majors we do not carry and the credits are essentially of no transferable value to an MU degree.

Though he does need to transfer 48 degree applicable credits (only 3 that are PE) and be 40% of the way towards a degree in his declared major by the start of junior year to be eligible. So, can’t come in with nothing like the past but coming in at the minimum and earning the minimum puts him way behind for graduation by the time he exhaust ps eligibility.
What, you still throwing up bricks? What is this, a Masons convention? Clank, clank! I need, like, a welding torch to play in this league! I got an idea, let's just stop right now and gather up all these bricks and let's build a shelter for the homeless so maybe your mother will have a place to stay

Lennys Tap

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #228 on: August 20, 2019, 10:35:21 PM »
Incorrect.  Here’s an example, guy has 20 credits of physical education and transfers to MU who has no Phys Ed major and thus all or nearly all of the credits do not transfer.  Now do the same calculus with any number of majors we do not carry and the credits are essentially of no transferable value to an MU degree.

What's the maximum number of credits a student at MU can take per semester (without paying extra)? In my day it was 18. 3 years = 6 semesters. 18x6 = 108. What is the maximum amount of credits an MU student can earn in summer school per year? 12?  12x3 = 36. 108 + 36 = 144 possible credits in 3 years including summer school. Don't know how many credits one needs to graduate from MU today - in my era it was 128. If that still holds a student could enter MU with negative 16 credits (impossible, I know) and still graduate in 3 years.

Herman Cain

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #229 on: August 20, 2019, 10:49:00 PM »
Here are my thoughts on the MU JUCO discussion:
1. As pointed out by other, The pool of quality JUCO talent is actually very limited.
2.  If there were kids who actually made sense from a Big East caliber playing perspective, MU would be out there recruiting them.
3.  Current MU coaching staff is putting its resources and relationships to work in high school and transfers. There are a limited number of hours in the day. The traditional transfer market, with sitting out one year , is a good risk reward from both and academic and athletic perspective .

4. It would not surprise me if MU eventually went back into the JUCO market and put its focus on    kids who originally started in D1 and then went to JUCO for non academic reasons.

brewcity77

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #230 on: August 21, 2019, 06:40:45 AM »
They are except the top .01%.

Top 0.01%? No. Just no.

Strictly from a "good enough to play professionally" level it's probably 30-40%. Marquette's 2017 team had 9 guys play 30% of the minutes. 5 are now playing professionally, 2 certainly will (Howard & Hauser), 1 probably will (Cheatham did test the waters), and only 1 likely won't (Heldt going to law school). If 75% of high majors will play professionally, that's about 20% of all players. And there are significant numbers from mid majors that also play professionally, just look at the TBT teams from places like Bradley, UMBC, etc.

But more important, for many of these kids this is absolutely the MOST marketable time of their lives. EA or Visual Concepts would cut checks to even walk-ons to get their likeness into a NCAA Basketball game that will make them millions. For some it might be only a couple hundred bucks, but if their likeness is worth that, let them earn it. They will make millions off the game, they would definitely pony up hundreds to even the bit players.

Shooter McGavin

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #231 on: August 21, 2019, 07:10:24 AM »
If those others you are talking about can make money overseas before they graduate from college they should go and forgo the hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of free education, room, board, training, facilities and travel they receive as skinny unprepared basketball novices. 

If there was a market for grade school and high school players playing professionally I would agree they should go as well.  I  not against a professional model for everyone. 

Cheeks

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #232 on: August 21, 2019, 08:29:37 AM »
Top 0.01%? No. Just no.

Strictly from a "good enough to play professionally" level it's probably 30-40%. Marquette's 2017 team had 9 guys play 30% of the minutes. 5 are now playing professionally, 2 certainly will (Howard & Hauser), 1 probably will (Cheatham did test the waters), and only 1 likely won't (Heldt going to law school). If 75% of high majors will play professionally, that's about 20% of all players. And there are significant numbers from mid majors that also play professionally, just look at the TBT teams from places like Bradley, UMBC, etc.

But more important, for many of these kids this is absolutely the MOST marketable time of their lives. EA or Visual Concepts would cut checks to even walk-ons to get their likeness into a NCAA Basketball game that will make them millions. For some it might be only a couple hundred bucks, but if their likeness is worth that, let them earn it. They will make millions off the game, they would definitely pony up hundreds to even the bit players.

Wait, you are literally contradicting yourself.  The fact that these guys get to go overseas and make a living is BECAUSE of how they played in college.  That 4 year audition in which they had training, free room and board, etc, led to a paying gig for them overseas.  Their marketability and payoff happens when they leave the school to become professionals.  If they were good enough to make money without proving their worth in college, they should...go for it....join a professional league and get paid.  But let’s not pretend college isn’t doing wonders for them and literally paving the wave for their future employment as it does for many students.  But again, the pay the players crowd doesn’t want to acknowledge this part....for some odd reason.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 09:05:55 AM by Cheeks »
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Cheeks

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #233 on: August 21, 2019, 09:13:25 AM »
What's the maximum number of credits a student at MU can take per semester (without paying extra)? In my day it was 18. 3 years = 6 semesters. 18x6 = 108. What is the maximum amount of credits an MU student can earn in summer school per year? 12?  12x3 = 36. 108 + 36 = 144 possible credits in 3 years including summer school. Don't know how many credits one needs to graduate from MU today - in my era it was 128. If that still holds a student could enter MU with negative 16 credits (impossible, I know) and still graduate in 3 years.

I took 19 one semester and do not recall being charged extra. 

Now, let’s get real, there are few if any men’s basketball players taking 18 credits a semester for any number of reasons I am sure you know well.  Second, some classes in majors require prerequisites are finished first before you can take the next level class, so it isn’t nearly as tidy as you lay out because the timeline doesn’t setup so easily....depends on the major, of course.  Third, Summer School credits are often limited in what class opportunities you have....the curriculum of offerings is reduced...so though there may be credits out there to obtain, it doesn’t mean the right classes are there to count for your degree....some will, but all 36 credits....extremely unlikely.  I could go on...the rule is in place for a reason.
"It's a crapshoot.  You have to be lucky."
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Jay Bee

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #234 on: August 21, 2019, 09:53:02 AM »
I took 19 one semester and do not recall being charged extra. 

IiRC 19 was the max when I was there. Took a semester of 21 and had to pour in extra $$$$

3.5 years of tuition plus a little extra was much betta than 4 full years tho

brewcity77

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #235 on: August 21, 2019, 12:20:59 PM »
Wait, you are literally contradicting yourself.  The fact that these guys get to go overseas and make a living is BECAUSE of how they played in college.  That 4 year audition in which they had training, free room and board, etc, led to a paying gig for them overseas.  Their marketability and payoff happens when they leave the school to become professionals.  If they were good enough to make money without proving their worth in college, they should...go for it....join a professional league and get paid.  But let’s not pretend college isn’t doing wonders for them and literally paving the wave for their future employment as it does for many students.  But again, the pay the players crowd doesn’t want to acknowledge this part....for some odd reason.

This is untrue. Just like undrafted players make the NBA, guys who don't play in college still play professionally overseas.

And their marketability for the most part goes down when they leave college. For every Zion, there are dozens of Luke Fischer types who will be bigger names in a higher demand sport in college than they ever will be overseas. And guys like Heldt & walk-ons like Cam will never be more marketable than they are in college.

Do they get noticed during their four year unpaid internship? Sure. That doesn't change the reality that unpaid internships are literally unpaid labor and should wholly be eliminated from our society.

Billy Hoyle

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #236 on: August 21, 2019, 01:58:33 PM »
What's the maximum number of credits a student at MU can take per semester (without paying extra)? In my day it was 18. 3 years = 6 semesters. 18x6 = 108. What is the maximum amount of credits an MU student can earn in summer school per year? 12?  12x3 = 36. 108 + 36 = 144 possible credits in 3 years including summer school. Don't know how many credits one needs to graduate from MU today - in my era it was 128. If that still holds a student could enter MU with negative 16 credits (impossible, I know) and still graduate in 3 years.

Basketball players are taking 12 per semester, maybe 15 in case they need to drop a class.  Then usually 6 in the summer.  They only need to pass 6 during the summer, 18 during the year to be eligible, so that gives them a chance to withdraw after the season or just fail classes.
What, you still throwing up bricks? What is this, a Masons convention? Clank, clank! I need, like, a welding torch to play in this league! I got an idea, let's just stop right now and gather up all these bricks and let's build a shelter for the homeless so maybe your mother will have a place to stay

Lennys Tap

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #237 on: August 21, 2019, 02:23:36 PM »
I took 19 one semester and do not recall being charged extra. 

Now, let’s get real, there are few if any men’s basketball players taking 18 credits a semester for any number of reasons I am sure you know well.  Second, some classes in majors require prerequisites are finished first before you can take the next level class, so it isn’t nearly as tidy as you lay out because the timeline doesn’t setup so easily....depends on the major, of course.  Third, Summer School credits are often limited in what class opportunities you have....the curriculum of offerings is reduced...so though there may be credits out there to obtain, it doesn’t mean the right classes are there to count for your degree....some will, but all 36 credits....extremely unlikely.  I could go on...the rule is in place for a reason.

Assuming 128 credits to graduate (correct me if I'm wrong), if Jae enrolled at MU with zero (0) transferable credits, three summers (36 hours) and 6 semesters at 15, 15, 15,15, 15, 17 would equal 128. So not impossible under the worst possible scenario. Neither you nor I know how many transferrable credits Jae had but I'd wager it's wasn't zero. If it was, for example, 14, he could have graduated in 3 years taking full loads in summer school and 13 hours per semester.

But whatever the numbers were your assertion that it wasn't possible is false.

Herman Cain

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #238 on: August 21, 2019, 05:07:51 PM »
This is untrue. Just like undrafted players make the NBA, guys who don't play in college still play professionally overseas.

And their marketability for the most part goes down when they leave college. For every Zion, there are dozens of Luke Fischer types who will be bigger names in a higher demand sport in college than they ever will be overseas. And guys like Heldt & walk-ons like Cam will never be more marketable than they are in college.

Do they get noticed during their four year unpaid internship? Sure. That doesn't change the reality that unpaid internships are literally unpaid labor and should wholly be eliminated from our society.
Please call me in about 17 years when you have to start paying the tuition bills for your beautiful bouncy Brewlette . I think you will have a different perspective as to the value of a full ride athletic scholarship which includes tuition room board and books.

brewcity77

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #239 on: August 21, 2019, 05:39:18 PM »
Please call me in about 17 years when you have to start paying the tuition bills for your beautiful bouncy Brewlette . I think you will have a different perspective as to the value of a full ride athletic scholarship which includes tuition room board and books.

I'm not saying there isn't value, but it isn't remotely fair value. And if there is a market for their likenesses, they should be able to profit off that, as any other student could. Especially as the universities use their likenesses for profit repeatedly, constantly, and for years after they depart the program.

Jay Bee

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #240 on: August 21, 2019, 07:02:41 PM »
I'm not saying there isn't value, but it isn't remotely fair value.

Why do kids go the college route, then?

brewcity77

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #241 on: August 21, 2019, 07:42:21 PM »
Why do kids go the college route, then?

Because it's a monopoly market if they want to stay in the country they know and because it's the most visible route to the NBA, and everyone playing college ball is dreaming of the NBA.

Billy Hoyle

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #242 on: August 21, 2019, 09:56:03 PM »
Assuming 128 credits to graduate (correct me if I'm wrong), if Jae enrolled at MU with zero (0) transferable credits, three summers (36 hours) and 6 semesters at 15, 15, 15,15, 15, 17 would equal 128. So not impossible under the worst possible scenario. Neither you nor I know how many transferrable credits Jae had but I'd wager it's wasn't zero. If it was, for example, 14, he could have graduated in 3 years taking full loads in summer school and 13 hours per semester.

But whatever the numbers were your assertion that it wasn't possible is false.

Crowder played 2 years, not 3.
What, you still throwing up bricks? What is this, a Masons convention? Clank, clank! I need, like, a welding torch to play in this league! I got an idea, let's just stop right now and gather up all these bricks and let's build a shelter for the homeless so maybe your mother will have a place to stay

Shooter McGavin

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #243 on: August 21, 2019, 10:06:57 PM »
Because it's a monopoly market if they want to stay in the country they know and because it's the most visible route to the NBA, and everyone playing college ball is dreaming of the NBA.

The overwhelming majority are not prepared to play professional basketball out of high school (NBA or any other professional league).  You are assuming a market for their services that isn’t there.  The value the vast majority receive going to a division 1 school is way more than the value they would get professionally at the same age and it’s not even close (the .01 percent aside, they should be allowed to play professionally out of grade school if they are good enough).   



Lennys Tap

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #244 on: August 21, 2019, 10:10:52 PM »
Crowder played 2 years, not 3.

I'm well aware, but Chico said that Crowder couldn't have graduated even if given a 3rd year.

brewcity77

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #245 on: August 22, 2019, 07:12:43 AM »
The overwhelming majority are not prepared to play professional basketball out of high school (NBA or any other professional league).  You are assuming a market for their services that isn’t there.  The value the vast majority receive going to a division 1 school is way more than the value they would get professionally at the same age and it’s not even close (the .01 percent aside, they should be allowed to play professionally out of grade school if they are good enough).   

And thus, for that "vast majority" they will never be more marketable than they are in college, which is why they should be able to profit off their likenesses.

The NCAA member institutions all profit off the likenesses of these players. They all use these players in advertising. Marquette still uses the likenesses of players that have been gone for years, decades. They repeatedly use the likenesses of the current players to profit from. There is no reason, no reason whatsoever, that the players themselves should not be able to do the same. None.

Its DJOver

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #246 on: August 22, 2019, 07:18:35 AM »
Anyone else getting dizzy from all these circles we're running around?

Shooter McGavin

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #247 on: August 22, 2019, 11:02:42 AM »
And thus, for that "vast majority" they will never be more marketable than they are in college, which is why they should be able to profit off their likenesses.

The NCAA member institutions all profit off the likenesses of these players. They all use these players in advertising. Marquette still uses the likenesses of players that have been gone for years, decades. They repeatedly use the likenesses of the current players to profit from. There is no reason, no reason whatsoever, that the players themselves should not be able to do the same. None.
[/quote

How would this be set up?  I guess I need to know more about how this would be done before responding to the profit from their likeness argument more than they already are.


Marcus92

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #248 on: August 22, 2019, 11:35:32 AM »
It's sad that 95% of this thread has been devoted to anything besides how great Lazar and Jae were as players (and have continued to be as MU ambassadors).
"Let's get a green drink!" Famous last words

brewcity77

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Re: Crowder & Hayward to HOF
« Reply #249 on: August 22, 2019, 11:36:59 AM »
How would it be set up? They would be able to profit from their likeness. If a local business wants to pay players to endorse their service or product, they can do that. If local news wants to pay them to film an ad for the sports segment, they can do that. If EA Sports or Visual Concepts wants to pay them to use their likeness in a video game, they can do that.

If the universities are able to use the players' likenesses for marketing and free advertising content, the players should be able to use their own likenesses to do the same for outside entities. Of course, the criticism is always "this will allow boosters to buy players," but as that's already happening through boosters, agents, and shoe companies, what is the difference? Better to get it out in the open. Besides, it's Markus Howard's face Marquette is advertising with, it's his performance that sells jerseys and memorabilia, shouldn't he be able to use his own face to make money?

And again, for someone like Cam Marotta or Matt Heldt who may never earn a penny of professional basketball dollars, why not let them make money on their likeness when they are in the most marketable time of their lives? Cam Marotta won't get paid to do commercials in 10 years, but during his time at Marquette it's entirely possible a local business or international video game company would give him a little money to endorse a product or appear in a game.

Further, you allow it universally. So if basketball players are able to profit off their likeness, so be it. Football players, volleyball players, baseball players, go for it. If an outside entity believes the student-athlete has value to them, go ahead and pay them for marketing purposes. And if they don't and some players get nothing, so be it. Your likeness is worth what you can sell it for.