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Date/Time: Dec 7, 2019 - 8:00pm
TV: ESPN2
Schedule for 2019-20
Jacksonville
56

Poll

Who will be Marquette's top 5 players in 19-20? (Pick 5)

Dexter Akanno
7 (0.7%)
Sacar Anim
183 (18.2%)
Brendan Bailey
110 (10.9%)
Jamal Cain
20 (2%)
Greg Elliott
10 (1%)
Markus Howard
198 (19.7%)
Theo John
173 (17.2%)
Jayce Johnson
42 (4.2%)
Koby McEwen
150 (14.9%)
Ed Morrow
97 (9.6%)
Symir Torrence
16 (1.6%)

Total Members Voted: 202

Author Topic: Top 5 Players This Coming Season  (Read 3620 times)

fjm

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Re: Top 5 Players This Coming Season
« Reply #25 on: August 16, 2019, 01:15:38 AM »
1. Marcus
2. Sacar
<very big distance>
3. BB
4. JJ
5. Ed

but Koby, Cain and Greg are all very close too.  I don't see Theo getting the minutes.








You don’t see Theo getting minutes....











😲

brewcity77

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Re: Top 5 Players This Coming Season
« Reply #26 on: August 16, 2019, 07:15:03 AM »
The obvious, no question top three are Markus, Theo, and Sacar. Theo defensively is the closest thing in the league to Markus offensively.

After that, it gets dicey. Bailey or Cain could be there if they make that next step. McEwen or Elliott could be worth a mention. Morrow or Jayce if we play enough 2-big sets. Maybe even Torrence if he's ready.

I haven't yet voted, I suspect the last two I pick will be out of Bailey, McEwen, & Morrow.

tower912

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Re: Top 5 Players This Coming Season
« Reply #27 on: August 16, 2019, 07:25:21 AM »
I don't see Theo getting the minutes.

Please explain.   
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Its DJOver

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Re: Top 5 Players This Coming Season
« Reply #28 on: August 16, 2019, 08:09:59 AM »
Please explain.

Just spit balling here, but if Jayce starts to increase the chances of winning the tip, and it turn out that two big sets don't work (which remains to be seen), then we're splitting 40 min between the three of them.  If Theo only gets 13.33 mpg I don't think he'll turn the needle a whole lot.  Hope it isn't the case, but considering his history of foul trouble I wouldn't write it off.

1SE

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Re: Top 5 Players This Coming Season
« Reply #29 on: August 16, 2019, 08:23:48 AM »
I'm fascinated by the 3 respondents (as of now) that didn't have Markus in the top-5. Didn't realize Sam, Joey and Dave were still reading Scoop.
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Galway Eagle

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Re: Top 5 Players This Coming Season
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2019, 08:41:08 AM »
I'm fascinated by the 3 respondents (as of now) that didn't have Markus in the top-5. Didn't realize Sam, Joey and Dave were still reading Scoop.

They must be the scoopers from the Marcus is a cancer party
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brewcity77

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Re: Top 5 Players This Coming Season
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2019, 08:44:05 AM »
Just spit balling here, but if Jayce starts to increase the chances of winning the tip, and it turn out that two big sets don't work (which remains to be seen), then we're splitting 40 min between the three of them.  If Theo only gets 13.33 mpg I don't think he'll turn the needle a whole lot.  Hope it isn't the case, but considering his history of foul trouble I wouldn't write it off.

While I don't dispute the potential tip benefit, this feels like backup quarterback syndrome. We know from on court evidence that Theo is one of the most impactful defenders in the league. We know that he is an efficient offensive player around the rim. And we know he's capable of around 20 mpg even with foul trouble.

It's possible that a guy who had similar overall impact on a lesser team in a lesser league will overcome him, but until proven otherwise, my money's on the guy we know.

Its DJOver

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Re: Top 5 Players This Coming Season
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2019, 08:52:24 AM »
While I don't dispute the potential tip benefit, this feels like backup quarterback syndrome. We know from on court evidence that Theo is one of the most impactful defenders in the league. We know that he is an efficient offensive player around the rim. And we know he's capable of around 20 mpg even with foul trouble.

It's possible that a guy who had similar overall impact on a lesser team in a lesser league will overcome him, but until proven otherwise, my money's on the guy we know.

I don't disagree, but Theo still has the highest fouls per 40 out of the three, and if that is something that he can't get under control then he may not get enough minutes to make a huge impact.  I realize that the question is "top 5" not "5 with the biggest impact", and full disclosure I voted for both Theo and Jayce, but I can still see the argument that Theo might not be as good as we're anticipating.

A lot of people are voting for Kobe, and he isn't a "known" quantity in the Beast.

frozena pizza

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Re: Top 5 Players This Coming Season
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2019, 09:27:00 AM »
I'm optimistic about Jayce, McEwen and Bailey this year.  Maybe I just like Utah.

brewcity77

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Re: Top 5 Players This Coming Season
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2019, 09:32:27 AM »
I don't disagree, but Theo still has the highest fouls per 40 out of the three, and if that is something that he can't get under control then he may not get enough minutes to make a huge impact.  I realize that the question is "top 5" not "5 with the biggest impact", and full disclosure I voted for both Theo and Jayce, but I can still see the argument that Theo might not be as good as we're anticipating.

A lot of people are voting for Kobe, and he isn't a "known" quantity in the Beast.

That's why I went with Bailey and Morrow over Kobe. Considering the freshman to sophomore jump for Bailey and knowing that Morrow already shown he can be a different maker. I really think it's a logjam after the top-3. I could see a case for almost anyone outside Akanno.

MU82

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Re: Top 5 Players This Coming Season
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2019, 09:32:49 AM »
I'm fascinated by the 3 respondents (as of now) that didn't have Markus in the top-5. Didn't realize Sam, Joey and Dave were still reading Scoop.

We've never had a worse player than Markus, and when you combine that with all the terrible stuff he does off the court, I'm not sure he'll play more than our walk-ons.

Too bad. He used to be 17, I'm told.
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brewcity77

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Re: Top 5 Players This Coming Season
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2019, 09:35:34 AM »
I'm fascinated by the 3 respondents (as of now) that didn't have Markus in the top-5. Didn't realize Sam, Joey and Dave were still reading Scoop.

Even if he doesn't have the impact some hope, the idea he isn't one of the top-5 is ludicrous. For better or worse, the returning All-American, Big East Player of the Year is going to be one of our top-5 in terms of impact.

Its DJOver

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Re: Top 5 Players This Coming Season
« Reply #37 on: August 16, 2019, 09:45:54 AM »
That's why I went with Bailey and Morrow over Kobe. Considering the freshman to sophomore jump for Bailey and knowing that Morrow already shown he can be a different maker. I really think it's a logjam after the top-3. I could see a case for almost anyone outside Akanno.

Well at least you're consistent.  I just have a hard time thinking someone who was a 3,2,.5 guy will be better than someone who was a 15,5,3 guy.  Curious where you would draw the line at though.  If Kobe had put up Markus-esque number for a mid-to-low major would you still put him behind someone that shot 25% from three?  Would you have pegged Henry as a top 5 player before his season started even though he was an "unknown"?

Not hating on Bailey, think he has a high ceiling, I just think we're putting a lot of stock into someone with an efg% in the low 40s.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 09:51:43 AM by Its DJOver »

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Re: Top 5 Players This Coming Season
« Reply #38 on: August 16, 2019, 10:10:22 AM »
Even if he doesn't have the impact some hope, the idea he isn't one of the top-5 is ludicrous. For better or worse, the returning All-American, Big East Player of the Year is going to be one of our top-5 in terms of impact.

Did you ever think that maybe someone was just trolling to elicit some desired response. 

brewcity77

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Re: Top 5 Players This Coming Season
« Reply #39 on: August 16, 2019, 10:11:02 AM »
Well at least you're consistent.  I just have a hard time thinking someone who was a 3,2,.5 guy will be better than someone who was a 15,5,3 guy.  Curious where you would draw the line at though.  If Kobe had put up Markus-esque number for a mid-to-low major would you still put him behind someone that shot 25% from three?  Would you have pegged Henry as a top 5 player before his season started even though he was an "unknown"?

Not hating on Bailey, think he has a high ceiling, I just think we're putting a lot of stock into someone with an efg% in the low 40s.

I don't disagree, but Bailey showed tremendous potential on the defensive end. In addition, and I know it's a small sample size, Bailey was one of our best players down the stretch. If you take the final seven games of the season, he led the team in offensive efficiency, effective field goal percentage, three-point percentage, and was our best player at not turning the ball over.

I know that's a small sample size, but to me it felt like a guy starting to turn the corner. Add a full season of strength building and conditioning as well as a huge opening in minutes with the Hauser departure that screams for someone who can be effective from the wing while also adding size to make up for the guys that transferred and I'm really high on Bailey.

I'll admit, I'm also gunshy on putting too much on transfers. I almost always expect them to start slow because even our more successful recent transfers, like Lockett, Carlino, and Rowsey, started slow and had significant critics early on. And some just never deliver on the positives they showed at other programs. For me, it's about proving it, and despite Koby's big numbers, I want to see it on the court. I can easily believe he'll end up being one of those top-5, but looking at it in this moment, I'm betting on the freshmen to sophomore development over the mid-major replicating his success at a higher level.

Its DJOver

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Re: Top 5 Players This Coming Season
« Reply #40 on: August 16, 2019, 10:18:20 AM »
I don't disagree, but Bailey showed tremendous potential on the defensive end. In addition, and I know it's a small sample size, Bailey was one of our best players down the stretch. If you take the final seven games of the season, he led the team in offensive efficiency, effective field goal percentage, three-point percentage, and was our best player at not turning the ball over.

I know that's a small sample size, but to me it felt like a guy starting to turn the corner. Add a full season of strength building and conditioning as well as a huge opening in minutes with the Hauser departure that screams for someone who can be effective from the wing while also adding size to make up for the guys that transferred and I'm really high on Bailey.

I'll admit, I'm also gunshy on putting too much on transfers. I almost always expect them to start slow because even our more successful recent transfers, like Lockett, Carlino, and Rowsey, started slow and had significant critics early on. And some just never deliver on the positives they showed at other programs. For me, it's about proving it, and despite Koby's big numbers, I want to see it on the court. I can easily believe he'll end up being one of those top-5, but looking at it in this moment, I'm betting on the freshmen to sophomore development over the mid-major replicating his success at a higher level.

Good solid points in this, and I'd agree with a lot of it.

I'm still curious as to where you'd draw the line though?  If the next Ja wanted another year, but at a high major and decided to come (just a hypothetical, nobody should read anything into this), he'd obviously be a top 5 player.  Same with Henry, he was considered the best MU player on that team since before day one.

dgies9156

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Re: Top 5 Players This Coming Season
« Reply #41 on: August 16, 2019, 10:35:34 AM »
Real simple:

Markus -- A guy even Al would have loved!

Kobe -- The key to 2019-2020. If he's as good as advertised, we're not going to skip a beat.

Jayce -- I'm a big believer. I hope I am right but this guy has the body and takes up space.

Theo -- No doubt, Theo will be huge. As in, "you have just been Theoed" as an offender tried unsuccessfully to drive to the middle.

Sacar -- Mr. Everything. If he can score, the Brothers Hauser will be long forgotten!

MU82

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Re: Top 5 Players This Coming Season
« Reply #42 on: August 16, 2019, 10:37:44 AM »
I know it's a small sample size, Bailey was one of our best players down the stretch.

Agree, and that gives me hope that he can have a break-out year. It's not as if he was a 2-star recruit; he was pretty highly rated because he has skills and potential.

Then again, I remember being very excited about the prospects of Cain after he finished his freshman year so strongly. So I'm in a "we'll see" state of mind with BB.

Maybe they'll both be studs this season!
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brewcity77

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Re: Top 5 Players This Coming Season
« Reply #43 on: August 16, 2019, 10:56:14 AM »
Where do I draw the line? That's tough to say.

From when I started at Marquette, the first two names I vividly remember stories from the gym before they played were Dwyane Wade and Dan Fitzgerald. Quite simply, there have been a lot more Dan Fitzgeralds. Seriously, if you were on campus at the time, we heard Fitz was going to be the next Novak, if not better.

While Ja Morant would've finished as one of our top-5 last year, would we have said so at this time last year? Maybe. Chartouny was our fifth player on the PT list behind Howard, Sam, Morrow, and Joey, but like JC he would've probably been at the back end of that five. Ja put up 12.7/6.5/6.3 as a freshman at Murray State. I'm not convinced that would've been a top-5 lock going into last year and less so this year. If Ja transferred to Marquette with those numbers, sat out, and was becoming eligible this year, I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one hesitant to buy into the hype.

When we landed Lockett, Reinhardt, and Morrow, my expectation from productive high-major guys was they would be in that top-5 range immediately. After seeing their first years here, Lockett is the only one I would say definitely ended up there, but certainly not with the offensive role we expected.

It's really just my experience of seeing what transfers and sit-out players usually bring. For every guy like Dwyane Wade who we hear is the missing piece that's lighting it up in practice, there's a half-dozen Dan Fitzgerald, Trent Lockett, Wally Ellenson, Joseph Chartouny, Jamil Wilson, Harry Froling types that just don't end up being as impactful as we hope.

If we were returning a thin team, I'd have McEwen in there, but even without the Hausers, we still have five guys in Howard, Anim, John, Morrow, and Bailey who played fairly significant minutes and either produced or showed significant production potential in our uniform. If you dropped August 2018 Ja Morant into this team, I'm honestly not sure I'd have him top-5 either. Would he deserve it? Absolutely, certainly, undoubtedly. But I've been burned too many times on Dan Fitzgerald type transfers to believe the hype without seeing it in a Marquette uniform.

brewcity77

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Re: Top 5 Players This Coming Season
« Reply #44 on: August 16, 2019, 10:59:24 AM »
Agree, and that gives me hope that he can have a break-out year. It's not as if he was a 2-star recruit; he was pretty highly rated because he has skills and potential.

Then again, I remember being very excited about the prospects of Cain after he finished his freshman year so strongly. So I'm in a "we'll see" state of mind with BB.

Maybe they'll both be studs this season!

I don't disagree. Part of my vote for Bailey also comes from need. We need someone to step into the role the Hausers played, and recency bias shows more success from Bailey than Cain (who I feel is heavily overlooked in this poll).

I might be more inclined to vote for McEwen honestly if the Hausers were back. I think you'd have a clear top-4 (Markus, Sam, Joey, Theo) and have to figure out if the fifth guy was Sacar, Koby, or someone else. As a guy who can distribute a bit, Koby makes more sense in that five-man lineup than he does to me on a roster that is more muddled.

MUBurrow

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Re: Top 5 Players This Coming Season
« Reply #45 on: August 16, 2019, 11:17:05 AM »
Sacar will be a man amongst boys. That’s how he is wired.

I agree with this. A hot take of mine is that Sacar is going to have a heck of a year and get himself into the D-League/Summer League conversation. Not only is he going to be the wheel at the center of the spokes on offense and defense, but the under-over on games MH misses has to be like 2, right? He's had the offseason to heal up, but the combination of his back spasm history and his usage are going to make it tough for him to make it through the year unscathed. If MH misses a few games and Sacar balls out, folks are going to notice.

WarriorFan

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Re: Top 5 Players This Coming Season
« Reply #46 on: August 16, 2019, 07:44:34 PM »
Please explain.
Happy to.

IMHO this team needs offense.  After Marcus and (hopefully) Sacar, scoring will be left to those unproven in the Big East.  Ed's offensive game - albeit based on offensive rebounds and putbacks - has matured, and Jayce has better offensive stats than Theo all around.  Getting 10+ points out of 20 mins from at least one big is going to be critical for this team's success.  I rank Theo 3rd among the bigs on the team towards reaching this objective.  Yes his defense is excellent, but he also fouls at nearly twice the rate that Jayce does, so he'll actually take minutes away from himself.  I see him playing a solid 12-15 per game as a defensive stopper.

Herman Cain

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Re: Top 5 Players This Coming Season
« Reply #47 on: August 17, 2019, 09:22:43 AM »
Where do I draw the line? That's tough to say.

From when I started at Marquette, the first two names I vividly remember stories from the gym before they played were Dwyane Wade and Dan Fitzgerald. Quite simply, there have been a lot more Dan Fitzgeralds. Seriously, if you were on campus at the time, we heard Fitz was going to be the next Novak, if not better.

While Ja Morant would've finished as one of our top-5 last year, would we have said so at this time last year? Maybe. Chartouny was our fifth player on the PT list behind Howard, Sam, Morrow, and Joey, but like JC he would've probably been at the back end of that five. Ja put up 12.7/6.5/6.3 as a freshman at Murray State. I'm not convinced that would've been a top-5 lock going into last year and less so this year. If Ja transferred to Marquette with those numbers, sat out, and was becoming eligible this year, I'm sure I wouldn't be the only one hesitant to buy into the hype.

When we landed Lockett, Reinhardt, and Morrow, my expectation from productive high-major guys was they would be in that top-5 range immediately. After seeing their first years here, Lockett is the only one I would say definitely ended up there, but certainly not with the offensive role we expected.

It's really just my experience of seeing what transfers and sit-out players usually bring. For every guy like Dwyane Wade who we hear is the missing piece that's lighting it up in practice, there's a half-dozen Dan Fitzgerald, Trent Lockett, Wally Ellenson, Joseph Chartouny, Jamil Wilson, Harry Froling types that just don't end up being as impactful as we hope.

If we were returning a thin team, I'd have McEwen in there, but even without the Hausers, we still have five guys in Howard, Anim, John, Morrow, and Bailey who played fairly significant minutes and either produced or showed significant production potential in our uniform. If you dropped August 2018 Ja Morant into this team, I'm honestly not sure I'd have him top-5 either. Would he deserve it? Absolutely, certainly, undoubtedly. But I've been burned too many times on Dan Fitzgerald type transfers to believe the hype without seeing it in a Marquette uniform.

This was a well written explanation above that is at the core of my reason for not ranking Koby and Jayce until after non conference.
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tower912

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Re: Top 5 Players This Coming Season
« Reply #48 on: August 17, 2019, 09:39:15 AM »
Happy to.

IMHO this team needs offense.  After Marcus and (hopefully) Sacar, scoring will be left to those unproven in the Big East.  Ed's offensive game - albeit based on offensive rebounds and putbacks - has matured, and Jayce has better offensive stats than Theo all around.  Getting 10+ points out of 20 mins from at least one big is going to be critical for this team's success.  I rank Theo 3rd among the bigs on the team towards reaching this objective.  Yes his defense is excellent, but he also fouls at nearly twice the rate that Jayce does, so he'll actually take minutes away from himself.  I see him playing a solid 12-15 per game as a defensive stopper.

Fair enough.   
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Marcus92

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Re: Top 5 Players This Coming Season
« Reply #49 on: August 17, 2019, 10:37:51 AM »
I'm just the opposite. This team has had all the offense in the world in recent years. That's been good enough to get us to the tournament, but not much more.

I'm confident Wojo and the coaching staff will find ways to score. I expect Marquette will be in the top 3 in the Big East and somewhere around top 25 or 30 nationally in offensive efficiency, even without the Hausers. The offensive will just look different -- more slashing and inside play, more transition, less reliance on the three.

But we made our biggest strides last season, when the defense took a major step up. And I think improving the defense even further will be the key to making further strides. That calls for size, athleticism and depth at every position -- with big, physical guards on the perimeter (Koby, Symir, Dexter), quick, versatile wings (Sacar, Brendan, Jamal) and tough defense and rebounding inside (Theo, Ed, Jayce).

MU struggled most last season: 1) if it faced longer, quicker, more athletic teams; and 2) if shots weren't falling. The roster additions address the first. Better defense helps you stay in the game when the offense isn't hitting on all cylinders.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 10:41:39 AM by Marcus92 »
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